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Tell me Tan, what do you do with this...
Rom 5:17-21
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 5:17-21
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is impossible for a person to have their eyes opened, to know God and be taken out of darkness, to then turn around and say God doesn't exist. In fact this type of statement is just evidence this man was never saved to begin with. Once He reveals Himself to you, you know.
The evidence a person is really saved is that they will bear fruit. The bible says to examine yourself to see if you're in the faith, because not all who say they are saved are actually saved.
Has anyone done the 1 John test? This is the book that tests you to see if you're really a Christian.
The evidence a person is really saved is that they will bear fruit. The bible says to examine yourself to see if you're in the faith, because not all who say they are saved are actually saved.
Has anyone done the 1 John test? This is the book that tests you to see if you're really a Christian.
C
Yeah the whole not everyone who cries lord lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven thing. What gets me is a lot of people take John 3:16 and use it for the once saved always saved theory, but John 3:17 says For god sent his son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that the world through him might be saved. Ive met a few people that think salvation cant be lost, one on tv, but, at least their searching, its better than nothing at all. Ya gots to start somewheres...I wouldnt get all mad about it though. Worrying about people only gets you so far, and fighting for the sake of being right, is pretty lame I think. So, dust of the dust of your feet, for verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement then for that city. All you can do is show them the right way,take it or leave it. Its no skin off my ear. :3
T
Most people do not understand what grace is or how grace works. All they will say is that I am under grace. Some will say grace is a free gift and that’s true. But, what is this free gift. The free gift (grace) is Jesus came and died for our sins and by coming under his blood; we have access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam by sinning took away in the garden. With out the Tree of life man was condemned to death, even the second death (the lake of fire). Jesus told us in the scripture, (Psalms: 69: 4) “I restore that which I took not away” which is your grace (our access to Jesus). Our fore parents, Adam and Eve chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Satan), by listening to Satan, instead of God, he cost us are access to The Tree of Life. Paul said this in Roman 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Adam and Eve were put forth from the Garden of Eden and from the Tree of Life. Grace is no more than a free gift retained by keeping God’s Law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.
Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because all have sinned, and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check.
T
Thats true...Also from the writing of Paul, where most people go and read in Romans 13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Now if we stop here it looks like this is all that have to done...but lets keep reading 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
If we truly love God (Jesus), then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
Now its time to call on the name Jesus
If we truly love God (Jesus), then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
Now its time to call on the name Jesus
Once Saved Always Saved is biblical. Eternal Security is a biblical doctrine. Now let me guess, are you one of these people that believe that you can be saved and then be lost, and then be saved again and then be lost again and on and on? I have never heard a preacher who believed in eternal security say that once a Christian is saved that he can live anyway he wants to live and be as wicked as he chooses to be. It is religious folks who like to cause a new born again to doubt his eternal security by telling him that he can lose his salvation. I am going to show you from the Holy Scriptures that a Christian in this dispensation known as the Church Age cannot lose his salvation. Here are the Scriptures:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son - 1 John 5:11
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God - 1 John 5:11
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:33-39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. - John 6:39
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. - John 18:9
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47
When you get saved, the Holy Spirit baptizes you into Christ's body. Therefore our salvation is not ours to lose. Remember that salvation is a gift. And also remember that God is not an Indian giver. Once you are born again, you cannot be unborn again.
Also notice that both Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. And as Ephesians 4:30 says, we are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Now, if a Christian does sin, even though his sins have already been forgiven, he still will have to reap the consequences.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. - Galatians 6:7
If a Christian becomes so carnal that he commits fornication after fornication and so on, he will not lose his salvation. Now while he cannot lose his salvation, he can still lose his testimony, his joy, his fellowship with God the Father, his health, his money, and even his life. But not only that, this Christian man can also lose his eternal rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and his millennial inheritance. So, while a Christian man or woman in this dispensation known as the Church Age cannot lose their salvation, they can still lose a lot of other things.
Oh and by the way, that verse that you took from Matthew.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
That verse is talking about the Tribulation also known as the Time of Jacobs Trouble. And no Christian will be here for that. Since it is not the Church's trouble, but rather the time of Jacob's trouble.
Many pastors who attack the doctrine of Eternal Security usually are men who have not learned how to rightly divide their Bible. There are divisions in the Bible. There are dispensations in the Bible, and when you rightly divide them, there is no confusion. The confusion comes, when people try to take a verse from one dispensation and apply it doctrinally to another dispensation.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son - 1 John 5:11
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God - 1 John 5:11
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:33-39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. - John 6:39
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. - John 18:9
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47
When you get saved, the Holy Spirit baptizes you into Christ's body. Therefore our salvation is not ours to lose. Remember that salvation is a gift. And also remember that God is not an Indian giver. Once you are born again, you cannot be unborn again.
Also notice that both Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. And as Ephesians 4:30 says, we are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Now, if a Christian does sin, even though his sins have already been forgiven, he still will have to reap the consequences.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. - Galatians 6:7
If a Christian becomes so carnal that he commits fornication after fornication and so on, he will not lose his salvation. Now while he cannot lose his salvation, he can still lose his testimony, his joy, his fellowship with God the Father, his health, his money, and even his life. But not only that, this Christian man can also lose his eternal rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and his millennial inheritance. So, while a Christian man or woman in this dispensation known as the Church Age cannot lose their salvation, they can still lose a lot of other things.
Oh and by the way, that verse that you took from Matthew.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
That verse is talking about the Tribulation also known as the Time of Jacobs Trouble. And no Christian will be here for that. Since it is not the Church's trouble, but rather the time of Jacob's trouble.
Many pastors who attack the doctrine of Eternal Security usually are men who have not learned how to rightly divide their Bible. There are divisions in the Bible. There are dispensations in the Bible, and when you rightly divide them, there is no confusion. The confusion comes, when people try to take a verse from one dispensation and apply it doctrinally to another dispensation.
Questions Answered on Eternal Security, Pt. 1 - By David Cloud
Questions Answered on Eternal Security, Pt. 1 - SermonAudio.com
Questions Answered on Eternal Security, Pt. 1 - SermonAudio.com
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV_iiINWNBA[/video]
I will go on record and say it right out for all to hear. As a believer, who has been cleansed of all sin when I believed upon the Son, if I go out and live in sin and backslide (and God forbid), God will not give me grace to live in sin, but He will make grace super-abound toward me to give me what I need to tum and overcome the power, the desire and the appetite for sin. God will do that for me through discipline and will chasten me back into fellowship because He has promised through His own justice and love to never leave me or forsake me because I have His righteousness that He imputed to me when I believed upon His Son. You can't change that with your doctrine and neither can I. I may remain in a backslidden state for years or even decades, who can tell, and during that time have no fruit to show forth. I may be judged by many of the brethren that I am not saved or that I have lost my salvation, but it's not true for I am still in God's hand. I am backslidden, yes, and have no fellowship, yes, but forsaken or lost my salvation, NO! Will God win me back, YES! And when God turns me back, I will be turned! Make no mistake about the power of God's salvation in the believer's life. We have been redeemed and purchased by the blood of Christ and have God's righteousness and God will never forsake His own righteousness, NO NEVER, NO NEVER, NO NEVER!!!! If you think so then you have judged God wrongly.
You and others can preach on all you want about the blood of Christ the way you do and how it operates in terms of fellowship and sinning willfully, but that will never change what God had promised and given to the believer through faith when they first believed. You can refer to it as 'easy-believism' or 'cheap grace' as some have done, but God is faithful and immutable and He loves to be merciful and gracious. You might judge the heart because of sin, but while you are judging, God looks at His Son and performs His work in the heart to draw that believer back into fellowship with Him and God will prevail and not fall short for He is the God of all flesh and is nothing too hard for Him. The believer has the promises of God operating on his behalf and it is those that do not understand the promises that have an understanding about how God operates that is contrary to His faithfulness and jealousy toward every believer. God won't let us get away with sin, but we will always have grace and truth that God will favour in our life without condemnation no matter how long it takes to win us back.
You and others can preach on all you want about the blood of Christ the way you do and how it operates in terms of fellowship and sinning willfully, but that will never change what God had promised and given to the believer through faith when they first believed. You can refer to it as 'easy-believism' or 'cheap grace' as some have done, but God is faithful and immutable and He loves to be merciful and gracious. You might judge the heart because of sin, but while you are judging, God looks at His Son and performs His work in the heart to draw that believer back into fellowship with Him and God will prevail and not fall short for He is the God of all flesh and is nothing too hard for Him. The believer has the promises of God operating on his behalf and it is those that do not understand the promises that have an understanding about how God operates that is contrary to His faithfulness and jealousy toward every believer. God won't let us get away with sin, but we will always have grace and truth that God will favour in our life without condemnation no matter how long it takes to win us back.
Exactly Red...The LAW was made to be broken
E
Rather it was made to PROVE we needed Christ. and could not get to heaven of our own merit. To prove there are non righteous no not one. And to ward off those who continue to think we can earn or merit salvation by being good. Including those who say OSAS is of satan. The law in itself proves them in error.
T
Those verses are good and true, but has no effect on a person whp does not keep the law (commandments). Thats right Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You can't go around picking verses out the Bible that lines up with your doctrine. Rightly dividing the true starts from Genesis to Revelation. Paul said in (1Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means. Now , Ask youself are keeping in memory...are you keeping the sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (saturday), like Paul, Jesus, the apostles and prophets kept. Do you keep the Lord's High and Holy days, Paul, Jesus, the apostles and prophets kept. Do you understand what they all about.
Just because a person have a Bible and able to quote out of it, does not mean you are in line with Jesus. Paul said in Romans 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
Pay close attention
If you truly love God, then you will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.
This is the order you must follow to walk in line with Jesus. If Paul, Jesus, the apostles and prophets have to do these things, then so do you and everybody else. Paul said in Romans 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
After you done these things then those verses you quoted will come into affect for you.
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Well first off, a Christian cannot keep the 10 commandments because if his salvation is based on him keeping the 10 comandments, then his salvation is based on his works. A person is trust soley in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for His salvation and that's it. You cannot add anything to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You cannot add your sacrements, your keeping of the 10 commandments, your keeping of the sabbath. Bu the way, where in the Pauline Epistles does the Apostle Paul ever tell or command the New Testament Christian to keep the Sabbath? You will not find it. A Christian has no business trying to keep the Saabath since the Sabbath was clearly a sign of the coveneant to Israel, God's chosen people. Here are some Scriptures to back up what I am saying:
12 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. - Exodus 31:12-18
Now let me ask you Tan, can it get any clearer than that? Again from reading this passage of Scripture, you can see that the Sabbath was clearly a sign between God and the Children of Israel. The Sabbath was for the Nation of Israel. Last time I checked, we are Gentile Believers. Again, go and find me one verse out of the Pauline Epistles where the Apostle Paul commands or exhorts the New Testament Christian/ Gentile Believer to keep the Sabbath.
Here is another Scripture that if you read it within its context, you will see that the Children of Israel were commanded to keep the Sabbath.
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. - Deuteronomy 5:12-15
You see Tan, let me tell you what kind of people doubt their salvation and doubt their eternal security. It is the people who are trusting in their good works to save them and not the finished work of Jesus Christ and His atonement for our sins. The people that know they have eternal security are the ones that stopped counting on their own self righteousness to save them. We cannot base our salvation on our ability to keep the 10 commandments Tan. The 10 commandments is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. And a Christian should never base his salvation on whether or not he keeps the Sabbath or the Jewish Feasts. We are saved by grace through faith alone. It not by our works.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10
And by the way, the moment you start believing your own works can save you is when you have fallen from grace according to the 5th chapter of Galatians.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - Galatians 5:1-4
People that attack the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security are usually the ones that take verses of Scripture out of context to try to support their own made up doctrine.
You see, when an unsaved elder is trying to convince a new born again Christian that he can lose his salvation, he'll always point him to either Hebrews, James, Matthew, or Acts 2. It is funny though how that same unsaved elder will never point him to Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30, or John 17. Isn't that something. Again, do you know how to rightly divide the Bible into its proper divisions and dispensations?
If you do, then you will never point a Christian to the book of James or Hebrews to show him that he can lose his salvation. The book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews in the time of Jacobs trouble. And the book of James is written to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. The book of James or Hebrews is not written to the Christians now living in the Church Age. Again, rightly divide your Bible. Well first, make sure that you have a King James Bible and not some false antichrist bible like an NIV or ESV, or NLT, etc. Make sure you have a King James Bible, and then make sure you rightly divide that King James Bible.
When a person cannot handle the doctrine of Eternal Security, since he cannot handle the truth. Then that person will always question the truth. And he will try to get you to question your eternal security.
Well Feedm, I am not going to address your whole post because it is obvious that you do not believe in the Biblical Doctrine of Eternal Security. I have already given the passages of Scripture that show that a Christian, a New Testament Gentile believer in this dispensation known as the Church Age cannot lose his or her salvation. And because you are not able to handle the true doctrine of eternal security, you question it. That's what people do, if they can't handle the truth, then they will question the truth. And you sure have asked me a lot of questions haven't you? I will address three of your questions though.
Alright let's begin with the first question you asked me.
Let me answer your it this way. If a person has truly been converted and has the Holy Ghost dwelling in Him. Then he will not make it a practice of sinning. After all there is a difference between living in sin constantly and falling into sin. Do you get that? Can you discern the difference?
And yes, a changed life is evidence of a true conversion. Don't tell me that your cousin is saved and born again, when he is still going to the clubs every night, smoking, drinking, and cussing like a sailor. Now of course when I say your cousin, I am just giving you an example. As I have never met you nor any of your cousins, so I am sure you understand what I mean, when I say I am just using your cousin as an example.
Now getting back to the illustration, Do you know what they call a person who professes to be a Christian and yet still lives the same life as he did before he "supposedly" got saved? They call that a false convert. And these modern churches who do not preach the whole Gospel but preach these lovey dovey messages are responsible for producing the most false converts. If we are inn Christ then we are a new creature. Old things have passed away, behold all things are become new. So, to answer your question, if a true Christian gets entangled in a deep sin, like Pornograohy, stealing, fornication or covetousness , that Christian is still secure. His salvation is still secure, why? Because he is sealed by the Holy Spirit (read Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30). Now while the Christian cannot lose his salvation, he can still lose everything else. The Christian still has a lot to lose even though he cannot lose his salvation. A Christian that continues to live in Fornication will eventually lose his joy, his testimony, his fellowship with God, his rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ, his millennial inheritance, his health, and even his life. So again, while that Christian will never lose his salvation, he will definitely lose everything else if he chooses to continue in his sin.
Look at the example of the man who was committing fornication with his father's wife.
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
Notice that Paul did not say that that same man lost his salvation but rather he delivered that mans flesh over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The man was still saved, but his body was destroyed for his wicked deed. There are consequences to sin.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. - Galatians 6:7
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Now to address your next question:
If the Christian decides he wants to go back and live in the world, do you think he will be chastised? Of course he will!!
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3:19
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.- Hebrews 12:6-11
Now, if that Christian refuses the chastisement, and decides to love this world and the things of the world and if he chooses to not receive the correction, then what will happen to that Christian? It's very simple. That Christian will live a miserable life. He will have no joy, no fellowship with his Heavenly Father, he will not be able to witness for Jesus Christ effectively, he will lose his testimony, and most likely he will lose his health and may even lose his life depending on the severity of his sinful lifestyle. But that's not all, that same Christian will lose many rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And will lose his millennial inheritance.
And finally, to answer one more question of yours:
That passage in Galatians is referring to those New Testament Christians who were being misled by the religious Jews who were trying to bring them back under the law. All that Paul was saying there was that if they tried to live back under the law then they had fallen from grace. No where in that passage does Paul mention those Christians losing their salvation. Did it say they had fallen from salvation or eternal life? No. It said then they had fallen from grace. Let me give you the whole Scripture.
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.- Galatians 5:1-12
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? - Galatians 3:1-5
Again you must read these passages of Scripture in its context. It's not talking about a Christian losing his or her salvation, it is talking about the false religion that was so prevalent in their day, it was this very same false religion of dead works that had preyed upon the church at Galatia. The Apostle Paul was basically rebuking that false religion and was correcting the saints of the church at Galatia. That is what was going on. Now I noticed you took some Scriptures from the book of Hebrews and tried to apply it to a Christian's eternal security. There is one problem feedm. Who is the book of Hebrews addressed to? I'll give you a hint, it is not the Gentile Believers. The book of Hebrews is addressed to the Hebrews!! Ta da!!! That wasn't so hard now was it? Do you realize that the book of Hebrews is mainly for the time of Jacobs trouble? Now how do I know that? Simple. Because the book of Hebrews addresses the Tribulation Saint entering into the Lord's Millennial Rest. That's why. Here are the Scriptures:
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. - Hebrews 4:3
Read all through Hebrews chapter 4 and you'll see that the Millennial Rest is basically the focus mainly of that Chapter. So, Hebrews 10:26 is not a passage of Scripture that shows that a Christian can lose his salvation. Because clearly a Christian cannot lose his salvation since 1) He is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13) and
2) Once your in the Body of Christ, you are secure. Since Jesus prayed to the His Father to keep those whom He gave unto Him.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. - John 17:9-12
If the Christian decides he wants to go back and live in the world, do you think he will be chastised? Of course he will!!
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3:19
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.- Hebrews 12:6-11
Now, if that Christian refuses the chastisement, and decides to love this world and the things of the world and if he chooses to not receive the correction, then what will happen to that Christian? It's very simple. That Christian will live a miserable life. He will have no joy, no fellowship with his Heavenly Father, he will not be able to witness for Jesus Christ effectively, he will lose his testimony, and most likely he will lose his health and may even lose his life depending on the severity of his sinful lifestyle. But that's not all, that same Christian will lose many rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And will lose his millennial inheritance.
And finally, to answer one more question of yours:
That passage in Galatians is referring to those New Testament Christians who were being misled by the religious Jews who were trying to bring them back under the law. All that Paul was saying there was that if they tried to live back under the law then they had fallen from grace. No where in that passage does Paul mention those Christians losing their salvation. Did it say they had fallen from salvation or eternal life? No. It said then they had fallen from grace. Let me give you the whole Scripture.
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.- Galatians 5:1-12
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? - Galatians 3:1-5
Again you must read these passages of Scripture in its context. It's not talking about a Christian losing his or her salvation, it is talking about the false religion that was so prevalent in their day, it was this very same false religion of dead works that had preyed upon the church at Galatia. The Apostle Paul was basically rebuking that false religion and was correcting the saints of the church at Galatia. That is what was going on. Now I noticed you took some Scriptures from the book of Hebrews and tried to apply it to a Christian's eternal security. There is one problem feedm. Who is the book of Hebrews addressed to? I'll give you a hint, it is not the Gentile Believers. The book of Hebrews is addressed to the Hebrews!! Ta da!!! That wasn't so hard now was it? Do you realize that the book of Hebrews is mainly for the time of Jacobs trouble? Now how do I know that? Simple. Because the book of Hebrews addresses the Tribulation Saint entering into the Lord's Millennial Rest. That's why. Here are the Scriptures:
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. - Hebrews 4:3
Read all through Hebrews chapter 4 and you'll see that the Millennial Rest is basically the focus mainly of that Chapter. So, Hebrews 10:26 is not a passage of Scripture that shows that a Christian can lose his salvation. Because clearly a Christian cannot lose his salvation since 1) He is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13) and
2) Once your in the Body of Christ, you are secure. Since Jesus prayed to the His Father to keep those whom He gave unto Him.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. - John 17:9-12
F
Yes I understand this. Were not talking about someone falling into a sin, repenting and seeking forgiveness.
Were speaking of a "believing person" that has "accepted Christ as savior" returning to a LIFE OF SIN or refusing to REPENT of sin.
So I will ask you again, if this person becomes a Christian, stops LIVING in sin, but later falls back into a life of sin (which happens all the time), is this persons salvation secure even while he is living a life of sin.
If you say, no because he was not "truly converted" then please tell me the reason his conversion was not true.
If you say because he lived in sin, then your saying "believing persons, even that have confessed Christ" cannot live in sin, or their conversion is not true, and they will not have salvation.
Same message I am saying different wording.
If you say "yes he is secure" then what do you mean by living in sin?
Sure, my drinking, smoking, club hopping, filty mouth cousin lol, lets use him.
I agree, a changed life is evidence of a true conversion, a "changed life" is evidence of repentance.
So to me, for one to say he was never really saved because he went back into the lifstlye is an assumption. The Bible does not say this, and that would lead to the fact, when we "accept the gospel" no matter how you define that, that many are not saved at that point, because they may go back into a life of sin in the future. Which destroyes the faith ONLY doctrine (not saying you believe that), and also leads to many questions.
Or we could say he was saved in the condition of "his changed life" and chose to reject the grace of God by returning to his life, and that is the sense the Bible gives.
But if one wants to believe he was never saved, I guess I dont have a problem with that, because the way you believe it, you still believe REPENTANCE is key.
Agree, to a certain point. Many people live different lives and have different backgrounds, and temptation. Lets say an x herion attic. He may be strong, and do very good for a long time after being converted, adn do much good for the cause of God.
Yet also one slip can lead right back to a life of sin because of his addiction, etc. I believe any sin can be overcome with the power of God, but I also believe that's why Satan attacks Christians, because he knows by getting them to return back to sin, is getting them back altogether - I Pet 5:8, he is looking to devour, not make our lives here only miserable, because actually, carnal minded people can love the world, and everything that goes with sin. God is not going to follow them around chastising them until they return, that is just not biblical.
If they reject his grace, then reject his chastisement, then they have thrown the gift of grace back and the giver. If I choose that, it would be MY fault, and my rejection, no failure on God's part.
Sealed with the Holy Spirit does not mean we are sealed so if we commit sin we will not lose salvation. That is a gross twist, and is not implied nor stated anywhere in the NT.
Were sealed with the HS of promise, as in IF we adhere to God's commands, NO ONE can pull us away from God, NOT satan, not anything, BUT YOU CAN WALK AWAY BY DOING THE THINGS YOU JUST LISTED.
Your saying if a person "lives in sin" he is not truly converted therefore does not have salvation. But if a Christian gets invoved in "fornication -porn, stealing, covetness" he is okay as far as salvation is concerned. Can you show ONE passage for this? Because every passage that mentions these sins show us those who are living this way CANNOT enter the kingdom of heaven. Do you think that does not apply to God's children?
Jesus says only those who do the will of God will enter heaven:
at 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Pauls says it is the will of God to abstain from fonication:
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
You say, we can violate the will of God, by doing exactly what is said not to do "abstain from fornication" and we will enter heaven just as well.
Now which should I believe? I am going with Christ and Paul.
If a person is a their, a pervert, and coveting, he will not enter heaven UNLESS he repents of these sins.
These are violations of God's laws, adn one who does this is NOT doing the will of God, therefore, he will not enter heaven just as Christ said.
The only way I could agree with you here is if you mean, if a person falls to a sin like porn, repents, and seeks forgiveness, he will receive forgiveness because he repented, then yes, the Bible teaches this.
Yet if a person is committing that sin, and asks for forgiveness, with no repentance, he cannot enter heaven and be with God.
This false teaching, you should really be careful James 3:1.
And now your condraticiong yourself here.
You said if a person "lives in sin" he was never truly converted.
Now your saying if he lives in sin (i.e. "A Christian that continues to live in Fornication ") he will only lose earthly joys.
Yet how is a Christian "that continues to LIVE in fornication" NOT be living in sin?
Isnt "continuing to live in fornication", living in sin?
So how can God bring him back to Salvation if he never had it?
because you said living in sin shows an untrue conversion?
Yes what they told to do? Withdraw from him.
Why? So that he may be ashamed, and repent, stop committing fornication. HE lost his fellowship. Yet what if he did not care enough to repent? What if he sstayed in fornication? Then he was not saved.
Ii Thess 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed
Being asheamed should bring about repentance, if it does not, then the person is doomed.
"delivered over to Satan" means he was cast back into the world, and lost the fellowship of the brethren, adn with God. Yet if he repented from his action then he would come back, and be saved.
Otherwise your now saying, if one chooses to live in sin, as long as the church casts him out, he will still be saved in the end.
So how is it that this also shows an untrue conversion at the same time? This really is not making sense. I will stop here until you clear this up, becauese no point in going any further, until we get his understood, because as it stands now your contradiction yourself big time.
I am working on replying to your response concerning the Gal. That one is whopper, I was surprised to read what you wrote. But I am not going to post until we get his hashed out.
T
I understand how you feel and you should feel that way, because your doctrine is base off a day that Jesus didn't raise on (Sunday). Your hold foundation of understanding is off and out of course. The BIble said in "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because, that in it, He had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Gen 2:1-3). The bible reveals that God blessed and set apart (sanctified) the seventh day. This day is holy unto God, and it is the only day of the week that we are commanded to honor. "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation: ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings." (Lev 23:3). A holy convocation is an assembly of the people of God, who come together to worship him.
Paul said in Ephesians 2: 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 - And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Sunday doctrine has nothing to do with the apostles and prophets or Jesus Christ. So..of course you are going to write that I have the problem with no proof no scriptures or verses to back up what you are saying in the Bible. The foundation of the church started in the wilderness on the seventh day of the week, Paul told you that in Acts 7:38 - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
The Apostle Paul understood this he knew and kept Gods law including the seventh day sabbath. Now lets take a look at; (Acts 13:13-15, 42, 44) (v.13) Now when Paul and his company loosed from Pa’-phus, they came to Per’-ga in Pam-phyl’-I-a: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. (v.14) But when they departed from Per’-ga, they came to An’-ti-och in Pi-sid’-I-a, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. Paul went into the church (synagogue) on the sabbath day the seventh day not the first day (Sunday). (v.15) And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (v.42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. The Gentiles didn’t asked Paul to come preach us something different next Sunday. They wanted Paul to preach to them the same thing that he taught the Jews, the next sabbath. Even the Gentiles knew that if they were going to serve the same God that Paul and the Jews (Israelites) served that they would have to serve him on the day that God had set up. (v.42) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. Not the next Sunday but the next sabbath.