OSAS= House Built on Sand

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
It's God's keeping power. You access that power through your believing/trusting. You do your trusting/believing through the God given gift and ability to know the unseen gospel is true. Without that gift you would not do the believing/trusting that is required to access the power of God in salvation. You do the believing. God gives the faith--the knowing--through which you do your believing/trusting.

If you think that's a works gospel just post the chapter and verse that says my believing is me trying to earn my own salvation by works. I'll look it up. You just post the chapter and verse.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
If you think that's a works gospel just post the chapter and verse that says my believing is me trying to earn my own salvation by works. I'll look it up. You just post the chapter and verse.[/QUOTE]

Did I say any of that Ralph? That's your conclusion but you conclude in error.

It's the message of the blood of His cross that we place our faith into. There's the power in the blood that men used to sing about. It's keeping power! And this is what Jesus said draws all men. Nothing of man is seen in His sacrifice.

By the way, that movie was a prime example of mans work. Not an ounce of truth in it.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
What works? Jesus is saying these people building on sand do NOT have works.

You can't see that because you are trained by 'once saved always saved' doctrine to automatically think that if having works to be safe on the rock is what Jesus is talking about then that would be a works gospel, so you change the passage to suit your predetermined doctrine and ignore what he's actually saying.

Instead, you should be asking yourself how it is that works (doing the will of God) is the foundation upon which a 'building' (you) will survive the coming storm of Judgement without those works amounting to the works gospel condemned in scripture.
The works of the spiritual man or woman is rewarded. But, salvation is not a reward from anything we do. Mans works are of the knowledge of good and evil. Those of the spiritual man or woman is of the tree of life whom is a person. The tree that Adam ate from brought death. The law of sin and death.

But, the tree that we who are His is life, and is symbolized in communion. And obtained.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,021
1,177
113
Where does it say that?

The key is understanding that while a person is in a lost state, they are sinners in need of repentance; unjust.
Do you believe a born again believer who is "in a lost state" can never, ever repent and be restored to fellowship?

It's almost as if those who leave their salvation in the hands of God and trust in God to keep them are being told they're calvinistic in their belief and yet, others are just as calvinistic in their belief of "once saved and then unsaved never EVER saved again even if you want to repent".

It's calvinistic in the negative sense ... like "elect" to the lake of fire (which is what calvinism basically states when it comes down to it).
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Do you believe a born again believer who is "in a lost state" can never, ever repent and be restored to fellowship?

It's almost as if those who leave their salvation in the hands of God and trust in God to keep them are being told they're calvinistic in their belief and yet, others are just as calvinistic in their belief of "once saved and then unsaved never EVER saved again even if you want to repent".

It's calvinistic in the negative sense ... like "elect" to the lake of fire (which is what calvinism basically states when it comes down to it).

I hear yah sister!! Baffling..... but you hit the nail right on the head!
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Is this "gift" offerded to all mankind?

Or only to those who believe?
The gift is available to all men through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is sent into the world to show people that the gospel they can not see is true. Some retain the ability--the faith--to know the word of the gospel is true and they place their trust in it and hold fast to it and they are justified. Most reject the testimony of the Spirit giving them the ability--the faith--to know the gospel is true and do not place their trust in it, in effect calling God a lair. All people receive the power of the gift of 'knowing' in the hope that they will respond to the message and be saved. But only a few retain that gift and are saved.


In other words, some believe that God offers salvation only the "elect" and those who reject do so because God never "elected" them. In other words, they had not choice but to reject.
That's a very poor understanding of election. Many are called to salvation, but few are chosen (elected) for salvation by placing their trust in what the Spirit has shown them is true. You become elected (chosen) when you of your own volition believe/trust in Christ for the forgiveness of your sin.

It has been determined ahead of time that is how God will save people--through the election of faith--not through works of self righteousness even though works is the first and natural and logical way that we expect a man to be chosen for salvation. But God has determined that election (being chosen) is on the basis of having faith in Christ. Many are called to be among the chosen, the elect. But most choose of their own volition to not retain the message of the gospel and believe/trust in Christ and are, therefore, not chosen (elected) by God because of that choice.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
What I hear from some in this thread is that we maintain ourselves, we confirm ourselves unto the end, we keep ourselves from falling.
No, we continue to believe in Him who maintains us and can keep us from falling away and being lost. If you stop believing and trusting in God for that he will in fact stop doing that for you. For the promises are conditioned on your believing. That's why you have to keep believing/trusting in him in order to continue to be safe in him. He has no obligation to continue to keep the person who no longer wants to be kept by him. If you deny Him, he will deny you.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,021
1,177
113
The gift is available to all men through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is sent into the world to show people that the gospel they can not see is true. Some retain the ability--the faith--to know the word of the gospel is true and they place their trust in it and hold fast to it and they are justified. Most reject the testimony of the Spirit giving them the ability--the faith--to know the gospel is true and do not place their trust in it, in effect calling God a lair. All people receive the power of the gift of 'knowing' in the hope that they will respond to the message and be saved. But only a few retain that gift and are saved.
In agreement. I believe God's calling is to "all" and some reject.




That's a very poor understanding of election. Many are called to salvation, but few are chosen (elected) for salvation by placing their trust in what the Spirit has shown them is true. You become elected (chosen) when you of your own volition believe/trust in Christ for the forgiveness of your sin.

It has been determined ahead of time that is how God will save people--through the election of faith--not through works of self righteousness even though works is the first and natural and logical way that we expect a man to be chosen for salvation. But God has determined that election (being chosen) is on the basis of having faith in Christ. Many are called to be among the chosen, the elect. But most choose of their own volition to not retain the message of the gospel and believe/trust in Christ and are, therefore, not chosen (elected) by God because of that choice.
In John 6, when Jesus told the people that He was the living bread which came down from heaven and if any man eat this bread he shall live forever (vs 51), many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more (vs 66).

Back in vs 26, Jesus told them they seek Him, not because they saw the miracles He did (which corroborated OT prophecy that He was Messiah) but because they ate of the bread and it filled their bellies for the moment.

God tells us we will find Him when we seek Him with our whole heart. Can't hold anything back.

 
Mar 23, 2016
4,021
1,177
113
No, we continue to believe in Him who maintains us and can keep us from falling away and being lost. If you stop believing and trusting in God for that he will in fact stop doing that for you. For the promises are conditioned on your believing. That's why you have to keep believing/trusting in him in order to continue to be safe in him. He has no obligation to continue to keep the person who no longer wants to be kept by him. If you deny Him, he will deny you.
See, Ralph, this is where you and I part ways.

I just read 2 Cor 1 through 5 (one of the sections of Scripture from the post to which you replied) and Paul does not say that God ever unestablishes, unanoints, unseals, or unguarantees that which He guarantees (the arrabon).

And as far as continuing to believe in Him, I believe He continues to work in us to remove those things in our lives which are not conducive to our walking in light of who we are in Christ Jesus. And I believe this is a lifelong endeavor. God is conforming us to the image of His Son ... something to which we will never attain in this lifetime because we live in these earthen vessels.

Now, God may be in the process of removing something in my life and I may struggle with Him because I believe I really need this insignificant (to Him but not insignificant to me) thing. When I finally stop struggling with Him over whatever it is and I die to myself and let it go, I find "wow, I really did not need that in my life" and I am so thankful God stayed with me long enough for me to finally let it go and that He didn't have the "fine, you want to hold onto that detritus, have at it, I'm done with you" attitude you keep pushing.

Maybe that's not what you’'e saying but that's what I'm hearing.
 
Jul 2, 2018
60
44
18
In agreement. I believe God's calling is to "all" and some reject.





In John 6, when Jesus told the people that He was the living bread which came down from heaven and if any man eat this bread he shall live forever (vs 51), many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more (vs 66).

Back in vs 26, Jesus told them they seek Him, not because they saw the miracles He did (which corroborated OT prophecy that He was Messiah) but because they ate of the bread and it filled their bellies for the moment.

God tells us we will find Him when we seek Him with our whole heart. Can't hold anything back.
Amen. And we must seek Him, not for what WE will get out of it...but for HIS will and pleasure.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
No, we continue to believe in Him who maintains us and can keep us from falling away and being lost. If you stop believing and trusting in God for that he will in fact stop doing that for you. For the promises are conditioned on your believing. That's why you have to keep believing/trusting in him in order to continue to be safe in him. He has no obligation to continue to keep the person who no longer wants to be kept by him. If you deny Him, he will deny you.
No, we continue to believe in Him who maintains us and can keep us from falling away and being lost. If you stop believing and trusting in God for that he will in fact stop doing that for you. For the promises are conditioned on your believing. That's why you have to keep believing/trusting in him in order to continue to be safe in him. He has no obligation to continue to keep the person who no longer wants to be kept by him. If you deny Him, he will deny you.
The KJV does confuse one in reading those scriptures in Timothy. I can see why you would accept this and I thought this way too at one time.

Reading into the next chapter however, it clears up misunderstanding as to who Paul is speaking about.

And here too is another reason why the Hebrew is so important to look at.

The end of chapter 2, translation of Hebrew to English:

But stay away from stupid and ignorant controversies —you know that they lead to fights, 24 and a slave of the Lord shouldn’t fight. On the contrary, he should be kind to everyone, a good teacher, and not resentful when mistreated. 25 Also he should be gentle as he corrects his opponents. For God may perhaps grant them the opportunity to turn from their sins, acquire full knowledge of the truth, 26 come to their senses and escape the trap of the Adversary, after having been captured alive by him to do his will.

Chapter 3:

3 1 Moreover, understand this: in the acharit-hayamim will come trying times. 2 People will be self-loving, money-loving, proud, arrogant, insulting, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, uncontrolled, brutal, hateful of good, 4 traitorous, headstrong, swollen with conceit, loving pleasure rather than God, 5 as they retain the outer form of religion but deny its power. Stay away from these people! 6 For some of them worm their way into homes and get control of weak-willed women who are heaped with sins and swayed by various impulses, 7 who are always learning but never able to come to full knowledge of the truth. 8 In the same way as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moshe, so also these people oppose the truth. They are people with corrupted minds, whose trust cannot pass the test. 9 However, they won’t get very far; because everyone will see how stupid they are, just as happened with those two.

Stay away from these people! 6 For some of them worm their way into homes and get control of weak-willed women who are heaped with sins and swayed by various impulses, 7 who are always learning but never able to come to full knowledge of the truth. 8 In the same way as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moshe, so also these people oppose the truth. They are people with corrupted minds, whose trust cannot pass the test. 9 However, they won’t get very far; because everyone will see how stupid they are, just
as happened with those two.

Those born again have had the heart circumcision. And it's an action of God, not of men. The Lord knows those who are His.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
Not sure why there's a repeating in the previous post. ?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Where does it say that?

The key is understanding that while a person is in a lost state, they are sinners in need of repentance; unjust.

JPT

What qualifies for a person to be in a lost state. What does that look like in practical terms for a person?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,473
6,134
113
And here too is another reason why the Hebrew is so important to look at. The end of chapter 2, translation of Hebrew to English
Since the New Testament was written in Greek, reading it from Hebrew would be reading a translation into Hebrew, just like the KJV is a translation into English. So what have you achieved through this? Nothing.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I just read 2 Cor 1 through 5 (one of the sections of Scripture from the post to which you replied) and Paul does not say that God ever unestablishes, unanoints, unseals, or unguarantees that which He guarantees (the arrabon).
We see the loss of the guarantor, the Holy Spirit, in Galatians 3 and 4. The Galatians were making themselves slaves to the law for justification again. Paul warned them that slaves to justification by the old covenant are not heirs along with the sons of the New Covenant of the blessings promised to Abraham's seed. And he says the Holy Spirit is one of those promised blessings. You lose the Holy Spirit when you depart from faith in Christ for justification.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
What qualifies for a person to be in a lost state. What does that look like in practical terms for a person?
If I may.......

In practical terms it means a willful, wholesale return to the world.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
And as far as continuing to believe in Him, I believe He continues to work in us to remove those things in our lives which are not conducive to our walking in light of who we are in Christ Jesus. And I believe this is a lifelong endeavor. God is conforming us to the image of His Son ... something to which we will never attain in this lifetime because we live in these earthen vessels.

Now, God may be in the process of removing something in my life and I may struggle with Him because I believe I really need this insignificant (to Him but not insignificant to me) thing. When I finally stop struggling with Him over whatever it is and I die to myself and let it go, I find "wow, I really did not need that in my life" and I am so thankful God stayed with me long enough for me to finally let it go and that He didn't have the "fine, you want to hold onto that detritus, have at it, I'm done with you" attitude you keep pushing.

Maybe that's not what you’'e saying but that's what I'm hearing.
What you are describing here is not the return to unbelief that solicits God's denial of a person. You are describing the person who is continuing to believe but is struggling with the growing pains of growing up into Christ. Christ will never reject a believing person like this no matter how badly they fail. They continue to believe in him despite their failures. It is when that person leaves Him altogether, that is when He will eventually turn them over to their decision to not trust in Him anymore and they have resisted all efforts by God to bring them back.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,807
473
83
Do you believe a born again believer who is "in a lost state" can never, ever repent and be restored to fellowship?
Of course not.

However they have to repent, which means turn to God and be reconciled to Him.

Though they are lost, God loves them and desires for them to return to Him.

This is clearly show by the joy in heaven when they do repent.


JPT