Pentecostal and Charismatic

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Nov 16, 2019
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#61
Although I did give your comment a thumbs up, I must ask, what exactly do you mean by, " misfits"?
The misfit in any church is the person not aligned with the official doctrine of the church/denomination he is attending. It's better for them to know ahead of time that they aren't going to fit in well with a particular church because of some fundamental difference of doctrine. Denominations help us to know that ahead of time.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#63
I was not raised in church or in a Christian home. I had a somewhat dramatic conversion experience in which the Lord appeared to me in a dream.
I have attended different churches over the years as I have moved around the country. I visited all Protestant denominations and non-denominational churches.
I believe that denominationalism is a major stumbling block in the true bible believing church today. If the Holy Spirit is there, I stay and serve.
I believe that the bible is the living, inerrant Word of God, and there is no application or doctrine contained therein that is not true and applicable for today.
Most refreshing to read. Thank you...
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#64
I was not raised in church or in a Christian home. I had a somewhat dramatic conversion experience in which the Lord appeared to me in a dream.

I believe that the bible is the living, inerrant Word of God, and there is no application or doctrine contained therein that is not true and applicable for today.
Where do you find your conversion experience in the bible? You claim the bible as authority for all things yet you have a conversion experience that appears outside of the bible?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#65
With all due respect and consideration, my own confirmation of Christ is not in the Word exactly. The closest it comes to is, no, I cannot say even this. I cried out to the One Who Is and He gave me faith and led me to Jesus by a series of quick ev ents and revelations.

It is not unusual for the real conversion or confirmation of belief in and of Jesus, Yeshua, comes directly and independent of others from our Father.

When I think about it, everyone has his or her conversion or confirmation of faith in his or her individual way, for Jesus, Yeshua, is just that personal to each of us, just that caring and loving……..The Cross is proof of this.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#66
The misfit in any church is the person not aligned with the official doctrine of the church/denomination he is attending. It's better for them to know ahead of time that they aren't going to fit in well with a particular church because of some fundamental difference of doctrine. Denominations help us to know that ahead of time.

Do you believe that each of us should wear a denominational label? Do you believe that each denomination could be given it's own forum here on CC? Would that be a good thing or a bad thing:unsure:
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#68
With all due respect and consideration, my own confirmation of Christ is not in the Word exactly. The closest it comes to is, no, I cannot say even this. I cried out to the One Who Is and He gave me faith and led me to Jesus by a series of quick ev ents and revelations.
Me too. The Spirit is real and powerful. Total submission and surrender is simple enough for a child. Childlike faith is key.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#69
There are possessors and there are pretenders. I cannot say which are which but the Lord knows who are His. The only reliable source for faith is the word of God. God has chosen His word to be the means by which He brings men to His Son Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Timothy5378

Active member
Feb 3, 2020
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#70
I'm not P/C....it has been stated well that if you give a person a Bible and they read it with no influence they will never be cessationist...i was one such person....and after 10 years I got hit with the gift of healing and miricales...i was casting out demons etc...on the mission field and people calling me over stopping rain with a phone call to me....as stated before I spent years and years to learn the whole Bible and get my doctrine right....and I verified it with the best commentaries....but I evangelizes all the time 25 years now...1000s of people...and gave all my time and money...i just have a few clothes...no much else and a large print KJV Bible...living this way is very free....so pls...those that wrote the NT gave up all for the Lord and Jesus gave up all RIGHT so we can do it like HIM...my point is I'm not any denomination...i just have what the apostles had.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#71
God has chosen His word to be the means by which He brings men to His Son Christ.
I tend to think of it as "by His Spirit". Do you sense His Spirit? Have you that blessed assurance that only the Spirit can give? The Comforter has come and is available to whosoever will believe and recieve.

Isaiah 55
55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#72
I tend to think of it as "by His Spirit". Do you sense His Spirit? Have you that blessed assurance that only the Spirit can give? The Comforter has come and is available to whosoever will believe and recieve.

Isaiah 55
55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for [that which is] not bread? and your labour for [that which] satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye [that which is] good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
The Holy Spirit moves through the word of God. Faith is created by the Holy Spirit when the word of God is heard.

It is by the witness of His Spirit with our spirit that we know we are His.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#73
Where do you find your conversion experience in the bible? You claim the bible as authority for all things yet you have a conversion experience that appears outside of the bible?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
When I was 14 I found a little pamphlet on the street with bible verses about salvation and I immediately accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. That conversion experience was not stated in the bible either. I believe that the salvation experience is unique and as such would not necessarily be related in the bible. I would say almost all conversions experiences and the events leading up to them do not specifically appear in the bible.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#74
When I was 14 I found a little pamphlet on the street with bible verses about salvation and I immediately accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. That conversion experience was not stated in the bible either. I believe that the salvation experience is unique and as such would not necessarily be related in the bible. I would say almost all conversions experiences and the events leading up to them do not specifically appear in the bible.
The little pamphlet contained the word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#75
I'm not Pentecostal/charismatic or any stripe there of. I'm very orthodox, but am not Catholic. I kind of line up theologically with the LCMS (that's conservative Lutheran) , but mostly go to a Baptist Church, which I disagree with on two major points; decision theology, and sacramentarianism. The points are almost an unbridgeable chasms. The disagreement that I have with the Lutherans is that they tend to be so traditional (not that traditions are bad) that they can seem as though they close themselves from new converts. Closed communion is a good thing but you can be too restrictive.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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#76
I agree the success rate is low, but we must keep trying, yes? I am glad that Jesus never gave up on mister misfit me:)
The success rate is low in churches.
Church is not where people's doctrinal positions get changed, IMO.
That happens out here in the real world.
Churches are boxes that prevent you (on purpose) from being exposed to other rational thought outside of it's own doctrinal beliefs.
That is definitely a strike against denominations.
You can live a lifetime as a devout 'xyz' denominational church attendee and never know there is legitimate, alternate thought and views concerning things in the Bible.
Very, very few pastors will give competing doctrines the time of day in their churches. One obvious reason is they are not being paid to do that (that's a good reason, honestly), and another reason is they are usually quite hardened and unmovable in their doctrinal boxes (that is a horrible reason).
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#77
As a generally cessationist individual, I've been quite surprised by the great number of Pentecostals and Charismatics ("P/C" from here-on-out) on this forum. It isn't that I'm angry about it, just that I find it interesting that so many people of the same theological outlook find their way to the same page. Maybe there are others who do not fall under those categories and leave, but anecdotally I still see an overwhelming body of people on these forums with those outlooks.

I'm really interested to know how everyone came to this specific faith--or, if you left it, why you did so. Were you in another church but decided that P/C was the correct view? Were you raised in the tradition? Did you join a P/C church first on your own volition? Or did others invite you?

I would really enjoy hearing any stories or Biblical arguments anyone might have which led them to the P/C faith. I don't mean to trivialize your faith as data, but P/C churches are likely the most-quickly growing religious group in the world, and I'm very interested to hear how that has played out in the personal lives of our brothers and sisters in Christ. Plus, a nice conversation between Christ's children seems like an appropriate way to further bring us together.

But maybe I should explain first what I'm thinking of when I say P/C. While it is obviously not the ONLY statement of their faith or even necessarily the most important, I have perceived many individuals discussing demons/possession, the devil, specific and concrete inspiration by the Holy Spirit, and some sort of dramatic and spiritual conversion experience. I understand this is not a definitive picture of the P/C churches, but I feel that they serve as reasonable indicators for them. I hope I haven't implied anything cross or offended anyone; I just thought I should explain my thinking.

Thanks.
I grew up Pentecostal. My dad was in construction and followed the work around the country, so I went to a few churches. They were both from Baptist backgrounds. Two of my dad's brothers were baptist preachers and so was his grandfathers. My parents told about getting baptized with the Holy Spirit at some kind of revival meetings at a Firehall. They started going to an Assemblies of God. I think I was about two at this time. My dad used his GI bill money to spend a year in Bible College.

As we moved, we went to different churches. We kept moving back to near where my mom is from in NC for much of elementary school. We had a house there, but it was so rural, my dad would take us elsewhere where he found work. We went to a 'Full Gospel' church in NC, non-denominational but Pentecostal in style and belief. We went to a Charismatic church in a small town in KY where we lived because my parents couldn't find a Pentecostal church, then A/G for most of my middle and high school years with some time in the Church of God (Cleveland). Like I said, we moved a lot. There were three A/Gs we sent to in my middle and high school years in two different states.

I have also spent time in the Indonesian affiliate of the COG, Gereja Bethel Indonesia. Style-wise some of their congregations are more Charismatic.

But an adult, I have also been involved with house churches. My own beliefs are not 'classical Pentecostal' anymore. I do not see a clear case from scripture that anyone who is baptized with the Holy Spirit may speak in tongues. Pentecostals think in terms of discreet 'steps': saved, then baptized with the Holy Ghost. The Holiness wing of the movement thinks in terms of discreet steps of 'saved', 'sanctified' and 'filled with the Holy Ghost.' The Oneness-- maybe 5% of Pentecostals-- some of them at least--tend to think a little different, thinking that you get saved by being baptized 'in Jesus' name' (those words or a similar phrase spoken at the baptism instead of the Matthew 28 trinitarian formula) and that if you are saved you will speak in tongues. I've never been to a Oneness meeting.

I do think it is important that believers be filled with the Holy Spirit, but I do not emphasize the idea that everyone has to have some point in time were they spoke in tongues, since I do not see a good Biblical case for the 'initial evidence doctrine.' Though, a lot of people do have that experience--speaking in tongues when they are filled with the Holy Spirit-- and I did too. I do not see a clear case that every individual in Acts 19, for example, spoke in tongues. Some may have prophesied and not spoken in tongues.

Anyway, I do believe in the operation of spiritual gifts. There are a lot of things I appreciate about the Pentecostal movement. It does, to some extent, allow for the expression of gifts of the Spirit. But in my experience, the way the movement allows it is much more limited than what I see in scripture. In your traditional American Pentecostal church, between songs, someone might give a prophecy, or someone might speak in tongues, followed by interpretation. But the Bible allows a lot more than that. I Corinthians 14:26 says that 'every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. Paul went on to put some parameters on this, but he calls his instructions 'commandments of the Lord.' I do not think I have seen the flow of prophecy in a Pentecostal church to the extent Paul is dealing with in this chapter, where one prophet is speaking and another comes to one who sits by and the first holds his peace, for ye may all prophesy one by one. Some Pentecostals (A/G especially) interpret the passage to mean a maximum of two prophecies, something I do not believe fits with the context.

Azusa Street revival meetings would have multiple people speaking, tongues and interpretation, prophesying, etc. But it seems like people who went to the revival mainly reverted back to evangelical tradition when they returned home. I don't see the one-man-pastorate in scripture. Most Pentecostals seem to follow that or the senior pastor model. IMO, too much emphasis is placed on a 'call to preach' in relation to overseeing a local church as opposed to the Biblical qualifications in the Pentecostal movement. I think it's Methodist influence, but I think some of the baptist churches have the same philosophy. Being called to preach and being qualified to be an overseer are not the same thing.

One tongues, some Pentecostals believe and practice tongues followed by interpretation. I heard this idea and saw it expressed in the A/G growing up. But there also Pentecostla groups from the Appalachian mountains that practice everyone praying at the same time-- sometimes in English, but also in tongues-- that tend to think the restrictions on tongues are only about messages addressed to the congregation and not their practice of all speaking in tongues at the same time. Apparently, some of the A/Gs practice this, though others are stricter on the idea of tongues needing to be interpreted.

The practice of telling everyone to speak in tongues at the same time is, to my mind, a practice of the Charismatic movement, but it has influenced the Pentecostal movement. Originally, Charismatics were mainline denominational groups that accepted aspects of Pentecostal belief about baptism with the Spirit and spiritual gifts, but many of those people went independent and doctrine and practice have influenced each other. Pentecostals for the most part in the US stopped being so strict on hair, makeup and jewelry. That started to be the case when I was a child, though. I did not experience a lot of 'clothes line' emphasis. Maybe the pendulum swung too far the wrong way on that.

Barna Surveys actually have shown evidence that Charismatics tend to know the Bible better than other evangelicals. Pentecostal groups ranked the highest on people taking surveys actually believing standard evangelical doctrines. There is a stereotype about Pentecostals being high on emotion and experience and light on scripture, but surveys about beliefs and scripture knowledge seem to overturn those findings.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#78
Another disagreement I have with some Pentecostals...and many evangelicals in general... is the reductionist approach to the preaching of the gospel that has resulted in removing the preaching of the cross and the resurrection. This seems to be a trend over the past few decades. If you tell most Pentecostals and Evangelicals that, they might look at you crazy. But if you actually see how 'altar calls' and having people pray prayers at their seats after a similar challenge is done, often it is after a sermon where the preacher does not preach on what happened at the cross, the Sonship of Christ, or the resurrection of the dead. This seems to be the norm. The audience is asked to repeat a prayer that mentions 'Jesus' in it and declared saved if they repeat the prayer. I've seen Baptist preachers do this same thing, too. The repeat the prayer thing is more common in the A/G and Foursquare. I don't think COG is as into it in the US, but I'm not sure. I've seen Gereja Bethel churches doing this, though-- having people repeat prayers without first preaching the Gospel. It's a huge problem.

I emphasize the role of baptism. Peter preached baptism for the remission of sins. Ananias told Paul to baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away his sins. That's what I see the apostles doing. They actually preached the gospel, then baptized those who believed. A confession of faith prior to baptism is appropriate, too, like the Ethiopian eunuch did. There is much in apostolic preaching about salvation through the name of Jesus, echoing Christ's word in Luke. But I think we should take a more holistic approach to apostolic teaching and practice when it comes to salvation, not focus on one point or another to the exclusion of other teaching.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#80
I wondered when something like "if you don't speak in tongues, you aren't saved" was going to come out. Unfortunately, this is common amongst Pentecostals and Charistmatics. At best, you're a "lesser Christian" if you don't speak in tongues as Pentecostals believe it.
I don't think that is what the other poster meant...but...

It is not common for Pentecostals or Charismatics to think that you are not saved if you do not speak in tongues. That is a rare viewpoint, mainly held among Oneness Pentecostals. I think most of them believe that way. It is rare to find that viewpoint outside of the Oneness movement.

A quick search on Google says there are about 579 million Pentecostals or Charismatics and about 24 million Oneness.

Oneness refers to their not being Trinitarian and believing that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Most Pentecostals profess Trinitarianism. I am not aware of their being a oneness movement among Charismatics. Of course, there are individuals in these movements, just like some of the other evangelical movements, who are uninformed on the details of theology, so you might find someone who is a de-facto Oneness.

What has been dubbed 'classical Pentecostal' doctrine is the idea of the baptism of the Holy Ghost subsequent to salvation with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Individual preachers or Pentecostals may be flexible about whether this is always accompanied by speaking in tongues. Biblically, it is a difficult position to defend if you really analyze the details. F.F. Bosworth was Pentecostal, but when the A/G decided to codify their doctrine in response to the Oneness movement, they wrote down this 'initial evidence' belief in their doctrine and Bosworth went back to the CMA. But the Pentecostal denominations accepted this viewpoint, the Trinitarian ones at least.

At least some Pentecostals would put it this way, that when a believer is saved and becomes a Christian, he or she receives the seal of the Spirit, but baptism with the Spirit is available subsequent to that (or concurrently). In Acts 8, Samaritans believed and were baptized, but the Spirit came on them later. In Acts 19, the men in Ephesus believed and were baptized, but after that Paul laid hands on them and they were filled with the Holy Spirit.