Perspective On The Law/Grace

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JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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Once more I confess I am sav ed by the Blood of the Lamb of God only, my obedience earns me nothing it is my due……...also it is my joy when I am able to obey what my Father wants of me because of what Yeshua has done just for me, and for all who believe Him…...
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I have pleaded with all to learn aout the law as it stands since He came, that is according to His teaching we should obey God, Yahweh, and for posting this I have been accused of telling people they are under the law.

Yet, no matter how many times I explain that we are only saved by the mercy of God by grace and not by obedience….....others choose to say this is being under the law.

YOu have explained it much better than I have been able. I like how you teach it is not under the law to love God and be grateful to Him by obeying what we believe Jesus teaaches about the law now.

What the majority if not all of those opposed say it I am saying we must obey all i613 of the laws of Moses while all know that is impot timessible since Jesus Christ makes teh lion's portion no long necessary, sacrificial, priesthood, Temple, etc...…… I think I have pointed this out in more detail to those mentioned dozens of times but they choose to ignore what they are informed of.

I do not believe Jesus Christ, Yeshua, was kidding around nor was He suggesting anything when He taught that we should not teach against the law…….I believe I understand Him, but passing it on falls on deaf ears, blind eyes and hearts, f, of stone.
Yet every time you have been asked, You say outright that people who do not obey these laws can and will lose salvation.

You have me on ignore because I had the gull to question you.

You can say you believe we are saved by grace ony all you want, Your actions and refusing to acknowledge that salvation can not be lost based on whether we obey God or not proves otherwise.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Once more I confess I am sav ed by the Blood of the Lamb of God only, my obedience earns me nothing it is my due……...also it is my joy when I am able to obey what my Father wants of me because of what Yeshua has done just for me, and for all who believe Him…...
So do you believe salvation can be lost because of disobedience. Yes or no?

This person has me on ignore. Someone please ask him.. And if he says he believes a person can not lose salvation based on how good he is or how well he obeys then I will praise God. Because he has repented.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
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davidclark.hearnow.com
All I am saying is trying to argue that people are attacking all people who attempt to obey the sabbath is not true. It is ony said by those who are doing the very thing I am saying.

If someone comes in and praises God that he was given Saturday to rest. And oh how he loves it. No one will most likely say a word to him .

If he tries to push it, People will ask them questions.

If they find out he believes people who do not obey are losing their salvation. Not saved, or at risk for losing salvation. Then the heat starts. And the accusations start flying.
In many posts, in context, I have made it clear that there are those that will judge and condemn if one doesn't follow the Sabbath. I have also mentioned that they need to stop doing such things too. So, in my defense, I'm not saying everyone is attacking all people who attempt to obey the Sabbath. I have definitely made the distinction during this conversation.

I understand there are those that push it on others, but I also see the other side, where people that don't follow it will try and push their belief on those that desire to follow. The original post was for those that follow it because they want to show God their love or reverence for Him, and not for thinking it saved them or keeps them saved. There are MANY people I know that follow the Sabbath for that reason, and it always seems that they are rebuked for doing it b/c we are now under grace. It's as if the law is no longer 'good' because we are under Grace. The law was perfect, and if one is trying to follow the law to have salvation; then they are trampling the blood of Christ under foot, as they cannot have BOTH law AND grace. I know this and understand this, and as stated many times, I don't follow a Sabbath day, but I will sure take up for those that follow it out of love any day of the week.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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In many posts, in context, I have made it clear that there are those that will judge and condemn if one doesn't follow the Sabbath. I have also mentioned that they need to stop doing such things too. So, in my defense, I'm not saying everyone is attacking all people who attempt to obey the Sabbath. I have definitely made the distinction during this conversation.

I understand there are those that push it on others, but I also see the other side, where people that don't follow it will try and push their belief on those that desire to follow. The original post was for those that follow it because they want to show God their love or reverence for Him, and not for thinking it saved them or keeps them saved. There are MANY people I know that follow the Sabbath for that reason, and it always seems that they are rebuked for doing it b/c we are now under grace. It's as if the law is no longer 'good' because we are under Grace. The law was perfect, and if one is trying to follow the law to have salvation; then they are trampling the blood of Christ under foot, as they cannot have BOTH law AND grace. I know this and understand this, and as stated many times, I don't follow a Sabbath day, but I will sure take up for those that follow it out of love any day of the week.
Well if that is the case I would rebuke them also.

But as I have said, I have yet to witness anyone, or see anyone in here or utside of here who would attack someone who thinks Saturday is a day of rest. At least without some sort of provocation.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Most folks who are as I regarding the Sabbath do not even know exactly what others mean by "keeping the Sabbath.
My practice is to observe the Seventh Day after Six Days of creation as a gift from the Father directly to me with the invitation to spend it with Him, and it is an honor.

It is the only Sabbath designated by our Maker as a gift o me and all who will receive it.

It is also a commandment that is not at all difficult to udnerstand and observe, but there no longer is any ceremony or ritual associated with it other than to enjoy the gift of being with the Lord in a special manner, because He wills it.

I have yiet to be able to disunnul the Ten Commandments as gone with the curse of the law on the cross, for the curse of that law, that which has been destroyed is simply death because of sin. Sin is breaking the law you know.
So when I see laws that are of a moral nature or of glorifying my Father, I feel it my joy and due to try to obey as best I have been given to. These laws have been removed from stone and etched on the tables of my heart, and i KNOW THEM when I see them, for myself that is.

I believe everyone who believes has this privilege, but who am I.

God bless all who are in Jesus Christ, Yeshua, and hear Him, amen.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
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well said, Brother Jaume -
our freedom in Christ, is freedom from sin -

ROMANS 6:15-16-17.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have 'obeyed' from the heart that form of doctrine
which was delivered you.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
Once more I confess I am sav ed by the Blood of the Lamb of God only, my obedience earns me nothing it is my due……...also it is my joy when I am able to obey what my Father wants of me because of what Yeshua has done just for me, and for all who believe Him…...
Yeah, I agree... I was just told it's a slap in God's face to follow the Sabbath. I just don't understand some people's hatred for the Torah, or more specifically, the Sabbath (guess it goes along with the hatefulness towards the Jews). It's a sad day for a child of the living God to say that it is a slap in the face to God because you want a day set apart for Him.

It's so horrible to praise God.
It's so horrible to worship God.
It's so horrible to deny yourself things of the world for God (TV, Internet, Iphones)

And it's so horrible to pick a day to do this.

Shame on anyone that worships God on a particular day. Might as well not worship God on ANY day since it's so offensive to God. SMH!
 

CharliRenee

Member
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Nov 4, 2014
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Regardless of when, if, or how we celebrate sabbath, I believe He showed us all that resting in Him alone is key.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I hope you know when I type things, it's in general, and not specifically speaking of you. I wanted to make that clear. I have no issues with you personally; as I don't know you. It's about an anti teaching about things in general.

And yet again though, is it wrong to take a day aside solely for worship, prayer, praise, study, unto God or not?
No, of course not.

And I see nobody frustrating the grace of God by honoring a Sabbath day. The grace of God is what loved us and saved us. Why would I go back under a law for my salvation again, when Christ is the ultimate sacrifice? One would be putting themselves under the curse of the law if they were obeying the laws for their salvation. This is ultimately what the Word says. Not that we don't obey the law EVER!
What do you think it IS that frustrates the Grace of God??

If this is true, then don't do anything for God. I mean, one doesn't want to frustrate grace... right?
You think you're 'keeping' of a sabbath is for God?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

When the Word talks about bondage and being under the law, it speaks of our freedom in Christ. Paul recognized this when he told others not to judge someone who keeps the Sabbath day. It's our freedom to do so. If keeping the Sabbath was unholy and wrong, and frustrated grace, then the Bible would have made it very clear, and so would have Paul.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Labour and heavy laden from doing what?

I'll give you a hint;

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Is it not frustrating grace to go back to the schoolmaster after coming to Christ and being justified by faith??

If not, what DOES frustrate grace??


Here's also a news flash! I believe in a literal 1000 year reign... And do we know what's going to be going on during this time? The Torah will be taught throughout the entire world. So, the law is not important anymore, eh? But this isn't a topic on the Millennial Reign, but about current events here and now. To claim that one is in violation of God's grace by following a Sabbath, is legalism and bondage to me.

And again, I don't keep a Sabbath day, but I do respect the wishes of another to do so out of LOVE and not out of fear or belief that it saves them.
I've heard people try to claim that the sacrificial and old jewish ways would be set back up in the millennial reign.

It makes about as much sense to me as people who think they can work at their favorite OT laws and not be under the curse and not frustrate grace. Its like we are reading two different bibles and following two different Christs.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Is sin transgression of the law ?
Is the law holy, and the commandments holy?

Do we nullify the law because we have faith in Jesus Christ ?
Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace?
Do we then turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness ?
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
No, of course not.



What do you think it IS that frustrates the Grace of God??



You think you're 'keeping' of a sabbath is for God?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Labour and heavy laden from doing what?

I'll give you a hint;

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Is it not frustrating grace to go back to the schoolmaster after coming to Christ and being justified by faith??

If not, what DOES frustrate grace??




I've heard people try to claim that the sacrificial and old jewish ways would be set back up in the millennial reign.

It makes about as much sense to me as people who think they can work at their favorite OT laws and not be under the curse and not frustrate grace. Its like we are reading two different bibles and following two different Christs.

NOTHING you do for the glory of God is heavy laden or labor; it is something you choose to do out of love and has NOTHING to do with ones salvation. You go to church because you LOVE God and want to know more about Him. You pray to God because the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. You praise God because of what He has done for you. You talk about the Lord because of His love for others. You do NONE of this for your salvation, but you do it because you love Him. Once you do any of these things because you believe you "must", then you are frustrating grace.

You keep posting this scripture:

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

There is not ONE thing we could do in this life to earn 'grace' or 'salvation'. So there is nothing we could do to be made perfect in the flesh, but to believe in the Lord Yeshua and Him alone. Everything outside of this we do because we love Him; not that we are ordered to or demanded to do.

You think you're 'keeping' of a sabbath is for God?
Do you think sharing the Gospel is for God?
Do you think praising the Lord is for God?
Do you think feeding the hungry is for God?
Do you think going to church is for God?

Ultimately YES! You are doing those things because you love God, and therefore, it's not only for your benefit, but all are a form of worship to Him when you do them.

Yes, Christ gave us rest, but He also gave us freedom and liberty! It's when a person starts to tell others how they can worship God or not, is what frustrates the matter.

People make up laws to push on others and then tell others not to be under the law. That is what makes no sense to me. When the Word tells us not to judge someone who wishes to follow the Sabbath, we turn around and make up a law that they cannot follow the Sabbath, and then we judge those that follow it. If people want to make up a law to not follow the Sabbath, then they need to abide by their OWN law and not try and force their law on someone else; this is bondage and legalism!

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

We must remember that God gave us the Sabbath so that we could rest from the things of the world, and work, to take a day off. The Sabbath was a gift of love and mercy to man, not an oppressive burden to make man miserable. If man wishes to not take that day off, then that's fine, let him work 7 days a week all year long, but God set up the Sabbath, giving them the choice, now in the NT, to do so or not do so.

In Matthew chapter 12 we see the Pharisees throwing their little fits because Christ healed a man on the Sabbath. Christ's telling them that we should do good on the Sabbath, and He says this in verse 12:

Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Since God included the Sabbath in the 10 Commandments, there must be some significance if you want to get to the bottom of it. I mean, don't Christians follow the 10 commandments? Every Christian I know says that the 10 Commandments are written in our hearts and that we know to follow them. Somehow though, people think following the Sabbath is no longer a valid commandment. Look, if we are going to follow "thou shall not kill", or "thou shall not bow down to any grave images", then why are some so vehemently against keeping the Sabbath day and making it holy?

Well, Pastor... The NT says only 2 commandments. Well, by loving God with all u're heart, soul, mind, and body, then it fulfills ALL the commandments... Right? If you love God you will not kill. If you love God you will not commit adultery. If you love God you will not bow down to any graven images. So if you love God, you will keep the Sabbath? Right? That's part of the 10, so why wouldn't you? You'll follow the others, but somehow discard the Sabbath day. Makes no sense to me.

Let's reason together here. You wouldn't tell someone that they were "frustrating grace" if they didn't bow down to graven images would you? No, no, no, u're in Christ now, so you don't have to worry about graven images. You'll frustrate the grace of God if you keep that commandment. See where this goes? How far do we take this?

The truth is that God makes the 7th day holy. There is only one day that God made holy and that is the Sabbath. If one makes every day holy, then they would become very lazy children, as they wouldn't work or do anything at all. Try telling God that His Sabbath is wrong because you make every day holy. I highly doubt He'll agree.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
God cannot give us 'physical' rest. This verse has nothing to do with our physical rest; that is what the Sabbath is for. Go ahead and work 7 days a week digging dirt with a shovel and see what your body does to you. I don't care if you know Jesus and He is your rest or not; your body will eventually give out on you. Just another scripture taken out of context to make up a law where there is no law.

Okay, what about Christ fulfilling the law and abolishing it?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The word fulfil does not mean what we, as English speakers would understand.

In Matthew 5:17, that Greek word is "pleroo" which means to obey the law to the full and to give the law it's full meaning.

The Contemporary English Version Bible translates the meaning of this scripture the best imo: “I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.” With this said, there is a Greek word fulfilled that is used to "end completely, or to "destroy", but that word was not used in this verse. Why? Because it was never ended completely and never destroyed.

There is a Greek word “fulfilled” (sunteleō) that is used in Mark 13:4 which does mean to “end completely,” “to destroy”.

I could go on for hours and page after page, but I highly doubt anything I have written will be understood or even taken into consideration. If anything, I have almost persuaded myself to take a Sabbath day. If I ever decide to do so, I won't hesitate to do so, and I'll be praising the Lord for that day of rest He has given me the opportunity to observe.

Ultimately, let people choose to observe a Sabbath or not. It's a God given right to do so, just as it's our right to not observe the Sabbath. But nonetheless, I would like to see that one crystal clear, without a shadow of a doubt scripture that tells us the Sabbath of the Lord has been removed and destroyed?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Regardless of when, if, or how we celebrate sabbath, I believe He showed us all that resting in Him alone is key.

When Jesus, Yeshua, invites us to learn from Him , this is what is in the invitation, to learn of Him for the yoke of the hypocrites is he hard and the burden is heavy.

When we earnestly imitate Him as our Model of life, we also will say, any day of the week, my Father is working, so I must work too.
Following the Lord in Spirit and Truth is not rest, it is trials and much good worksgiven us by the Father. We do rest in learning wisdom and understanding directly from Him for this fulfills the prophecy we shall be taught by God, and Jesus is God, and dHe is our t Teacher.

As for the Sabbath rest given us to pass a day special with the Lord, it is a great and wondrous blessing. Since I have truly turned to honoring our Father by observing that Day "our " way,that is, the way I would honor Him, for man is not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man (me and you), it seems the six days disappear. I am just leaving a Sabbath it seems when the following is here…..everything in between seems of no importand and passes without notice.

Sorry, I went on a bit of my own experience there, but I believe God speeds up time for us to get to b with Him forever…..crazy, huh?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,665
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NOTHING you do for the glory of God is heavy laden or labor; it is something you choose to do out of love and has NOTHING to do with ones salvation. You go to church because you LOVE God and want to know more about Him. You pray to God because the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. You praise God because of what He has done for you. You talk about the Lord because of His love for others. You do NONE of this for your salvation, but you do it because you love Him. Once you do any of these things because you believe you "must", then you are frustrating grace.

You keep posting this scripture:

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

There is not ONE thing we could do in this life to earn 'grace' or 'salvation'. So there is nothing we could do to be made perfect in the flesh, but to believe in the Lord Yeshua and Him alone. Everything outside of this we do because we love Him; not that we are ordered to or demanded to do.



Do you think sharing the Gospel is for God?
Do you think praising the Lord is for God?
Do you think feeding the hungry is for God?
Do you think going to church is for God?

Ultimately YES! You are doing those things because you love God, and therefore, it's not only for your benefit, but all are a form of worship to Him when you do them.

Yes, Christ gave us rest, but He also gave us freedom and liberty! It's when a person starts to tell others how they can worship God or not, is what frustrates the matter.

People make up laws to push on others and then tell others not to be under the law. That is what makes no sense to me. When the Word tells us not to judge someone who wishes to follow the Sabbath, we turn around and make up a law that they cannot follow the Sabbath, and then we judge those that follow it. If people want to make up a law to not follow the Sabbath, then they need to abide by their OWN law and not try and force their law on someone else; this is bondage and legalism!

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

We must remember that God gave us the Sabbath so that we could rest from the things of the world, and work, to take a day off. The Sabbath was a gift of love and mercy to man, not an oppressive burden to make man miserable. If man wishes to not take that day off, then that's fine, let him work 7 days a week all year long, but God set up the Sabbath, giving them the choice, now in the NT, to do so or not do so.

In Matthew chapter 12 we see the Pharisees throwing their little fits because Christ healed a man on the Sabbath. Christ's telling them that we should do good on the Sabbath, and He says this in verse 12:

Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Since God included the Sabbath in the 10 Commandments, there must be some significance if you want to get to the bottom of it. I mean, don't Christians follow the 10 commandments? Every Christian I know says that the 10 Commandments are written in our hearts and that we know to follow them. Somehow though, people think following the Sabbath is no longer a valid commandment. Look, if we are going to follow "thou shall not kill", or "thou shall not bow down to any grave images", then why are some so vehemently against keeping the Sabbath day and making it holy?

Well, Pastor... The NT says only 2 commandments. Well, by loving God with all u're heart, soul, mind, and body, then it fulfills ALL the commandments... Right? If you love God you will not kill. If you love God you will not commit adultery. If you love God you will not bow down to any graven images. So if you love God, you will keep the Sabbath? Right? That's part of the 10, so why wouldn't you? You'll follow the others, but somehow discard the Sabbath day. Makes no sense to me.

Let's reason together here. You wouldn't tell someone that they were "frustrating grace" if they didn't bow down to graven images would you? No, no, no, u're in Christ now, so you don't have to worry about graven images. You'll frustrate the grace of God if you keep that commandment. See where this goes? How far do we take this?

The truth is that God makes the 7th day holy. There is only one day that God made holy and that is the Sabbath. If one makes every day holy, then they would become very lazy children, as they wouldn't work or do anything at all. Try telling God that His Sabbath is wrong because you make every day holy. I highly doubt He'll agree.



God cannot give us 'physical' rest. This verse has nothing to do with our physical rest; that is what the Sabbath is for. Go ahead and work 7 days a week digging dirt with a shovel and see what your body does to you. I don't care if you know Jesus and He is your rest or not; your body will eventually give out on you. Just another scripture taken out of context to make up a law where there is no law.

Okay, what about Christ fulfilling the law and abolishing it?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The word fulfil does not mean what we, as English speakers would understand.

In Matthew 5:17, that Greek word is "pleroo" which means to obey the law to the full and to give the law it's full meaning.

The Contemporary English Version Bible translates the meaning of this scripture the best imo: “I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.” With this said, there is a Greek word fulfilled that is used to "end completely, or to "destroy", but that word was not used in this verse. Why? Because it was never ended completely and never destroyed.

There is a Greek word “fulfilled” (sunteleō) that is used in Mark 13:4 which does mean to “end completely,” “to destroy”.

I could go on for hours and page after page, but I highly doubt anything I have written will be understood or even taken into consideration. If anything, I have almost persuaded myself to take a Sabbath day. If I ever decide to do so, I won't hesitate to do so, and I'll be praising the Lord for that day of rest He has given me the opportunity to observe.

Ultimately, let people choose to observe a Sabbath or not. It's a God given right to do so, just as it's our right to not observe the Sabbath. But nonetheless, I would like to see that one crystal clear, without a shadow of a doubt scripture that tells us the Sabbath of the Lord has been removed and destroyed?
Ok. So you CAN pick and choose your favorite OT laws with NO repercussions whatsoever.

You just cherry pick a few bible verses and re-interpret them to mean anything you want.

That's really handy for cults, legalists and judaizers. They pretty much thought of it before you did.

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If the Lord DIDN'T fulfill all of the law then not one jot or tittle has passed from it and everyone is still under FULL Judaism. Sacrifices and the whole nine yards.

What the Lord didn't say was that He would fulfill parts of the law and leave other parts for you to work at.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You'll just keep making up excuses because nothing can frustrate grace and these scriptures don't mean what they say?


2 Corinthians 3:7-8
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

When we become Christians you think that it is the ministration of Death and Condemnation that is written on our hearts? All the Christians you know think the same thing?

It just shows how deep this misunderstanding of legalism and Judaism goes.

Christians DO NOT have Death and Condemnation written on their hearts. Christians have Love and Joy and Life written on their hearts.


God cannot give us physical rest so He commanded a Saturday sabbath? I don't think I've ever heard that one. Its fun to just make stuff up and post them as facts. The reason we go to church on Sundays is because the stained glass looks the best on those days.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
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205
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davidclark.hearnow.com
Ok. So you CAN pick and choose your favorite OT laws with NO repercussions whatsoever.
There are TEN Commandments... You pick and choose 9 and not all 10? "If the shoe fits!"

You just cherry pick a few bible verses and re-interpret them to mean anything you want.
So the Ten Commandments are cherry picked?

If the Lord DIDN'T fulfill all of the law then not one jot or tittle has passed from it and everyone is still under FULL Judaism. Sacrifices and the whole nine yards.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Are you a liar?
Are you a thief?
Do you have idols in your home? And worship them?
Are you a murderer?
Are you a Polytheist?
Do you renounce the Sabbath day God made for you so as not to keep it holy?
Do you dishonor your mother and father?
Do you take the Lord's name in vein?
Do you covet?"I love my neighbors new truck. I want it!"

Not all has been fulfilled! Heaven and Earth have not passed away.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

To establish is to "abide" and "continue" Not destroy!

Tell me the 10 Commandments are no longer valid in our lives? Better yet, tell God that.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15​
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21​
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12​
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Hebrews 4:9-10​
For he that has entered into his rest; the Gospel has ceased from his own works as GOD did from HIS. As GOD did from HIS is a direct comparison. GOD rested from physical labor on day seven which is the Sabbath. So we who have entered into the Gospel also rest from our physical labor on day seven which is the Sabbath.​
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2​
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15​
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10​
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28​
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10​
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3​
Without these laws, there would be no knowledge of sin; so I guess, in your terms, we are sinlesly perfected now because these are obsolete and Christ abolished them?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This shows that if there were no laws, there would be no need for God's Grace; thus no reason for a mediator.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also (In other words in addition to that) hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The only record we have of GOD ceasing from HIS own work is upon completing Creation. God ceased from work on the day, the seventh which HE later called the Sabbath. So we who have entered into Christ's Rest; the Gospel, also in addition to that cease from our own works as GOD did from HIS on the Seventh Day, which is the Sabbath.

Can you say that the commentary Jesus gave on the commandments cancelled that law as Moses gave it? In that case we would be told that Jesus was not true to the Father, Jesus is a new God who cancelled what the Father said. So. Jesus said you could lie, steal and murder for as Jesus explained the spirit of the law Jesus was cancelling? Tell me how that works?

If the laws of God were of no importance whatsoever, Jesus would have taught this and made it VERY clear, rather than saying what He did about not one jot nor tittle would pass from the laws until all was accomplished.

The Sabbath was in effect way before Moses received any laws.

The word translated rested in Genesis 2:3 is “shabbat” in Hebrew and means Sabbath. So the first occurrence in the English translations may be Exodus 16 but in the original Hebrew text it is actually Genesis 2:3.

With all I've pointed out and shared, I do not follow a Sabbath day, as I have the liberty NOT to follow a Sabbath or not IMO. But in regards to them that do, it is none of our business to tell someone they cannot follow it or to condemn them for doing so. Technically, and in all reality, there are 10 Commandments; not 9, and we all want to say we continue to follow them, but we exclude the Sabbath. Sure, tell me I pick and choose, but eat your own words; YOU pick and choose which of the 10 YOU want to follow.

I am done responding to you, as I have made the points that I wished to make, and have presented scripture well enough to end this back and forth between you and I. I will say this in closing. Nowhere have I mentioned that one MUST keep a Sabbath, and no where have I tried to force it upon anyone. We each have our relationship and walk with God the Almighty, and it's not my place to tell you how to have that relationship. You won't be standing before the Throne on my behalf, and I won't on yours. We are all held accountable for we do or what do don't do. But I will say this as well, in closing...

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Although I don't force or tell others that they MUST do this or do that, I would never be vehemently teach AGAINST it and TEACH someone that they should NOT obey.

Thanks for participating in the conversation. Feel free to respond and have the last word, as my reply to you no longer warrants a response.

Lecheem Ha Elohim... Shalom!!!
 

CharliRenee

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When Jesus, Yeshua, invites us to learn from Him , this is what is in the invitation, to learn of Him for the yoke of the hypocrites is he hard and the burden is heavy.

When we earnestly imitate Him as our Model of life, we also will say, any day of the week, my Father is working, so I must work too.
Following the Lord in Spirit and Truth is not rest, it is trials and much good worksgiven us by the Father. We do rest in learning wisdom and understanding directly from Him for this fulfills the prophecy we shall be taught by God, and Jesus is God, and dHe is our t Teacher.

As for the Sabbath rest given us to pass a day special with the Lord, it is a great and wondrous blessing. Since I have truly turned to honoring our Father by observing that Day "our " way,that is, the way I would honor Him, for man is not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man (me and you), it seems the six days disappear. I am just leaving a Sabbath it seems when the following is here…..everything in between seems of no importand and passes without notice.

Sorry, I went on a bit of my own experience there, but I believe God speeds up time for us to get to b with Him forever…..crazy, huh?
Not addressing the thou shalt or thou shalt not component of the arguement, I don't know why anyone would find it unholy or dishonoring to...


As for the Sabbath rest given us to pass a day special with the Lord, it is a great and wondrous blessing. Since I have truly turned to honoring our Father by observing that Day "our " way, that is, the way I would honor Him, for man is not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man (me and you), it seems the six days disappear. I am just leaving a Sabbath it seems when the following is here…..everything in between seems of no importand and passes without notice.

That shows your heart on the matter, the matters concerning Him. I think there in lies our answer on all other matters.
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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When our Savior, Jesus, walked this earth, He was constantly finding need to pbraid certain of the Pharisees and other holy-titled me about their teaching, as is written ruing the traditions of men while ignoring the Word of our Maker..

Today many go off on tangents due to what used to be called rabbinical teaching in place of theWord. This is when men who are too intelligent to hear just the Word find it necessary to change the Word of God to fit their own intellectual conclusions.

We must, as children avoid all of this contemporary rabbinical diversion fromt he Word and only listen to our Father.

When we lissten to Jesus, Yeshuia, we are hearing our Father. God bless all in Yeshua, Jesus, amen.
 

Epiales

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Not addressing the thou shalt or thou shalt not component of the arguement, I don't know why anyone would find it unholy or dishonoring to...


As for the Sabbath rest given us to pass a day special with the Lord, it is a great and wondrous blessing. Since I have truly turned to honoring our Father by observing that Day "our " way, that is, the way I would honor Him, for man is not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man (me and you), it seems the six days disappear. I am just leaving a Sabbath it seems when the following is here…..everything in between seems of no importand and passes without notice.

That shows your heart on the matter, the matters concerning Him. I think there in lies our answer on all other matters.
It's not that I can't see or won't see the other side! I understand being under grace and no longer being under law. I am set free from the law and will no longer be punished for not following it b/c nobody can follow it perfectly. But the whole intention of the thread was for others to see that it's OKAY to keep a Sabbath day if one wishes too. It's OKAY! It really is! But not to the point that it saves you, keeps you saved, or that you are better than others that don't. Keeping the Sabbath is for OUR benefit and we should, in all reality, take God up on that offer. We get so busy in our lives that many people fail to recognize God through the week. So take a day and glorify Him.
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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Jesus has taught us not to teach against the law. Also, Jesus defeated the curse of the law on the cross. He did not end all of the law, for I am fairly certain if He teachs us nto to teach even against the least of the laws they are still in effect.

I believe the answer lies in this, if Jesus did not finish all of the law, His Body, in imitatin Him continue obeying, as best it can, until He returns, for the large number of laws He finshed are almost all of them...…..We now are fulfilling the law that governs holiness and moral behavior in the sight of God while the only righteousness any may clain is the righteousness of our Savior Who is aour Salvation
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I think people need to realise what a tutor is. A tutor or schoolmaster in the day was a person who took a child by the hand, took them to school. And helped them to graduate. Once the child had graduated, the tutor was no longer needed.

That is what the law is called. What one has to do is realise and figure out what does this mean.

1. The ten commands, (we can add also many other moral commands, although the ten are enough) what purpose do they have? - To Prove we are sinners
2. The ceremonial aspects of the law - Teaching aids, to show us what Christ would do
3. The temple and sacrirfice - To show us how seperated from God we are (we can not even get close to him, only one person could. And if HE was not completely clean, he would die on entering the most holy place) what would need to take place for true atonement to take place. Sacrifice of lamb etc

Once christ appeared. And once a person has allowed the law to lead him to christ (he was proven to be a sinner, Christ fulfilled the things taught by the traditional ceremony, and atonment was paid in full) then what purpose does the law have in that persons life?

The ten commands can not help him or her. How can I say this?

The command says do not commit adultry.

What it does not say is, How do I not commit this sin (instructions) what is every possible way I can break this sin (further instruction) tetc etc. It is just a written law. “Thou Shalt Not....”

What good is it to the believer? Should he or she not be focused on serving people and loving in christ Which Jesus said FULLFULLS that command, or should he or she be focused on a command that does not even teach him anything at all. Other than he is probably guilty which he already admitted when he repented to God.

The fact is this, every person in this room has sinned and fallen short of Gods glory (his perfect standard)

The only people who should be judging any person for any sin is the persons parents, their spouse, Their pastor. Their discipler. And any close christian brother or sister who loves that person. Not one person in Christian Chat should be judging another soul for any sin, it is not their Job, That is why I HATE and DISPISE legalism, It attacks people who may not even be saved, These people do not need to be judged, Jesus said he came to save them not judge them, What gives anyone in this room the RIGHT to judge people they have never even met, or any person they do not know (in evengelism) God judges them, thats his job, Leave it to him.

People who judge need to realise, them judging people for not being able to keep Gods law comes back on them, BECAUSE THEY CAN NOT KEEP IT EITHER! How foolish we as christians look when we demand people meet some guildine we can not meet ourself. And satan loves it when we do this! HE LOVES IT!

As for the rest of the law

The sacrifices were fulfilled. What purpose or need do we have to continue

The ceremony or tradition. Again, what need? Something we ALREADY know has already BEEN FULFILLED in our lives. Shoudl we not focus on whats reaqlly important. The lost. Growing our own faith Learning other things God has in store for us to learn as his children?

Am I saying it is ok to sin? No. May it never be so. What I am saying is even Jesus said the law says do not commit adultry, but he added, if we even look at a woman with lust we have sinned. I think we need to take Jesus example and stop focusing on other people sins, and focus on their NEEDS. Knowing God has TAKEN CARE of ALL OUR needs..