Perspective On The Law/Grace

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,684
1,997
113
#81
This is silly! To say this about anyone who wants to love God in any fashion is contradictory to scripture. We love God with ALL our hearts, and if one wants to love God with all their heart by keeping the Sabbath, then that is their right, and decision, and nobody should tell them they are 'silly' because they want to.

Code:
Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an
holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
What part of this do we not understand about this?

People need to realize that they make their OWN LAWS up in their minds that say...

"THOU SHALT NOT KEEP A SABBATH DAY"

Sorry, but if I wanted to do so, I would go with my heart, not with these man made laws of there being no law.

Don't want to work, make food, turn a light switch on, put wood in the stove, because I wish to spend this day devoted to God; reading, studying, praying, worshiping, etc...

Shame on you for serving God. You are in violation if you serve God on a sabbath. You are no longer under grace because you are serving your God.

See how 'silly' that sounds?
Let's put this a different way so you can maybe understand.

Let's say your Father has told you to NOT sacrifice sheep and no longer place blood upon the altar because He has personally sacrificed Once and For All.

But you say "Out of love for my Father I will continue to sacrifice sheep and place blood upon the altar out of love for my Father".

Furthermore, you tell your brothers and sisters that they should NEVER speak up about your folly because of your "liberty" and grace you have received.

But your brothers and sisters DO speak up and tell you that your premise is RIDICULOUS. No one is delivered from the Yoke of Bondage and then decides out of "love" they will go back to their yoke of bondage because they think that is pleasing to God.

Either you have a misunderstanding of Christianity or you have not been delivered from your yoke of bondage and still desire to be under the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Keeping a sabbath is a work of the law. You must continue in ALL things which are written in the book of the law or you are cursed.

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


So you have to pick. Condemnation in your work at the law or Deliverance from that Condemnation.

You don't get to say that out of love you are going back to your condemnation. That shows no understanding.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#82
Let's put this a different way so you can maybe understand.

Let's say your Father has told you to NOT sacrifice sheep and no longer place blood upon the altar because He has personally sacrificed Once and For All.

But you say "Out of love for my Father I will continue to sacrifice sheep and place blood upon the altar out of love for my Father".

Furthermore, you tell your brothers and sisters that they should NEVER speak up about your folly because of your "liberty" and grace you have received.

But your brothers and sisters DO speak up and tell you that your premise is RIDICULOUS. No one is delivered from the Yoke of Bondage and then decides out of "love" they will go back to their yoke of bondage because they think that is pleasing to God.

Either you have a misunderstanding of Christianity or you have not been delivered from your yoke of bondage and still desire to be under the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Keeping a sabbath is a work of the law. You must continue in ALL things which are written in the book of the law or you are cursed.

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


So you have to pick. Condemnation in your work at the law or Deliverance from that Condemnation.

You don't get to say that out of love you are going back to your condemnation. That shows no understanding.
And your whole premise is about SIN! That's why the Lamb was slain. I don't see Sabbath keepers slaughtering lambs to cover their sins... do you?

You make it sound like someone that chooses to "WORSHIP" the living God is a heretic. Are you seeing what you have given?

No work so that I can focus on scripture
No cooking, so I can focus on scripture (cook day before)
No phone, no internet, no television, no carnal books (just scripture)
No cleaning house
No outside lawn care

Add to the list however you wish, but that is wrong? U're basically saying anyone that chooses to do those things, so they can get away from the worlds garbage and influence, so they can devote and spend time with their God in heaven, is wrong? So they can prayer and study God's Word... it's wrong?

There is no need to slaughter a lamb anymore. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: (YES! If you think your salvation comes from obeying the law, u're under the law)

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Serving our God on a Sabbath day is not what I"d call walking 'after the flesh', so therefore there is no condemnation except from those that hate the law and the Sabbath.


Presenting yourselves holy and acceptable unto God, as a living sacrifice... Someone wants to sacrifice television, books, computers, internet, phone calls, going shopping, and the like... what do you call that? I would call it a 'living sacrifice' unto God because they want to set that day apart for Him, Christ, with study, prayer, worship, and sacrifice from the worldly things that we all get wrapped up in. Nope, I see nothing wrong here!
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,146
3,076
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#83
Fasting may be said to be an expression of loving our Father. Obying what one believes is correct in His sight is always an expression of love.

We must not be judgmental but patient to longsuffer that which we do not understand.

That latter is judgment without considering what we are judging or saying.

If your neighbor in Jesus, Yeshua, believes in the light of god he must not eat pork to please God, why do you , oh fwellow sinner, say he is under the law., especialliay in view of the reality that the non-pork eating believer knows he is only save by the mercy afforded by the grace of God? Who are you to judge?

So llet us live in unity with all who believe they are saved by the Blood of the Passover Lamb of God, and not divide. Only the vile and contentious would argue with this. Love contains no sin.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,146
3,076
113
#84
And your whole premise is about SIN! That's why the Lamb was slain. I don't see Sabbath keepers slaughtering lambs to cover their sins... do you?

You make it sound like someone that chooses to "WORSHIP" the living God is a heretic. Are you seeing what you have given?

No work so that I can focus on scripture
No cooking, so I can focus on scripture (cook day before)
No phone, no internet, no television, no carnal books (just scripture)
No cleaning house
No outside lawn care

Add to the list however you wish, but that is wrong? U're basically saying anyone that chooses to do those things, so they can get away from the worlds garbage and influence, so they can devote and spend time with their God in heaven, is wrong? So they can prayer and study God's Word... it's wrong?

There is no need to slaughter a lamb anymore. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: (YES! If you think your salvation comes from obeying the law, u're under the law)

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Serving our God on a Sabbath day is not what I"d call walking 'after the flesh', so therefore there is no condemnation except from those that hate the law and the Sabbath.


Presenting yourselves holy and acceptable unto God, as a living sacrifice... Someone wants to sacrifice television, books, computers, internet, phone calls, going shopping, and the like... what do you call that? I would call it a 'living sacrifice' unto God because they want to set that day apart for Him, Christ, with study, prayer, worship, and sacrifice from the worldly things that we all get wrapped up in. Nope, I see nothing wrong here!
As it is written the only sacrifice we may give to our Makr is that of thanksgiving........

All you have mentioned for those who chose to do in order to honor our Fatgher on the Sabbath are varied forms of thanksgiving.

We do what Yeshua teaches out of trust and love, never out of a sense of saving ourselves.

What kind of children of God would we be to dishonor the One Who suffered and died for our sins to contnue in disobedience to god? Certainly we would not be found worthy of His salvation so immense and free.

No all who think disobedience of His word is the way when He has graced us with His mercy are sorely mistaken. Happily it is only sin when we do it knowing it is sin, yet we must live our best to pelase Yeshua for we do not save ourselves..

If a man says he loves Jesus, Yeshua, yet ignores His teaching, all of His teaching, his faith is an illusion.....
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,684
1,997
113
#85
And your whole premise is about SIN! That's why the Lamb was slain. I don't see Sabbath keepers slaughtering lambs to cover their sins... do you?

You make it sound like someone that chooses to "WORSHIP" the living God is a heretic. Are you seeing what you have given?

No work so that I can focus on scripture
No cooking, so I can focus on scripture (cook day before)
No phone, no internet, no television, no carnal books (just scripture)
No cleaning house
No outside lawn care

Add to the list however you wish, but that is wrong? U're basically saying anyone that chooses to do those things, so they can get away from the worlds garbage and influence, so they can devote and spend time with their God in heaven, is wrong? So they can prayer and study God's Word... it's wrong?

There is no need to slaughter a lamb anymore. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: (YES! If you think your salvation comes from obeying the law, u're under the law)

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Serving our God on a Sabbath day is not what I"d call walking 'after the flesh', so therefore there is no condemnation except from those that hate the law and the Sabbath.


Presenting yourselves holy and acceptable unto God, as a living sacrifice... Someone wants to sacrifice television, books, computers, internet, phone calls, going shopping, and the like... what do you call that? I would call it a 'living sacrifice' unto God because they want to set that day apart for Him, Christ, with study, prayer, worship, and sacrifice from the worldly things that we all get wrapped up in. Nope, I see nothing wrong here!
So you think you can just throw out scripture and pick and choose which OT laws you like and which ones you don't?

If you choose to "keep" a sabbath that's fine. But what about the admonition to keep all the rest of the law as well? Just ignore that?

Just do your favorites and forget the rest...

As a Christian, when you choose to "keep" a sabbath this is what comes with it;

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


There is no need to sacrifice a lamb anymore, Christ is the ultimate sacrifice for sin. Yes. You are correct. But He is much more than that.

Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Do you read Galatians at all??

Do you just do whatever you think is right in your own eyes and not worry about what scripture says or what the entire point of the law is to begin with??

Its ok. Most everyone else who is a legalist or judaizer agrees with you 100% They just cherry pick the law and scriptures too.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#86
So you think you can just throw out scripture and pick and choose which OT laws you like and which ones you don't?

If you choose to "keep" a sabbath that's fine. But what about the admonition to keep all the rest of the law as well? Just ignore that?

Just do your favorites and forget the rest...

As a Christian, when you choose to "keep" a sabbath this is what comes with it;

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


There is no need to sacrifice a lamb anymore, Christ is the ultimate sacrifice for sin. Yes. You are correct. But He is much more than that.

Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Do you read Galatians at all??

Do you just do whatever you think is right in your own eyes and not worry about what scripture says or what the entire point of the law is to begin with??

Its ok. Most everyone else who is a legalist or judaizer agrees with you 100% They just cherry pick the law and scriptures too.
I hope you know when I type things, it's in general, and not specifically speaking of you. I wanted to make that clear. I have no issues with you personally; as I don't know you. It's about an anti teaching about things in general.

And yet again though, is it wrong to take a day aside solely for worship, prayer, praise, study, unto God or not?

And I see nobody frustrating the grace of God by honoring a Sabbath day. The grace of God is what loved us and saved us. Why would I go back under a law for my salvation again, when Christ is the ultimate sacrifice? One would be putting themselves under the curse of the law if they were obeying the laws for their salvation. This is ultimately what the Word says. Not that we don't obey the law EVER!

If this is true, then don't do anything for God. I mean, one doesn't want to frustrate grace... right?

When the Word talks about bondage and being under the law, it speaks of our freedom in Christ. Paul recognized this when he told others not to judge someone who keeps the Sabbath day. It's our freedom to do so. If keeping the Sabbath was unholy and wrong, and frustrated grace, then the Bible would have made it very clear, and so would have Paul.

Here's also a news flash! I believe in a literal 1000 year reign... And do we know what's going to be going on during this time? The Torah will be taught throughout the entire world. So, the law is not important anymore, eh? But this isn't a topic on the Millennial Reign, but about current events here and now. To claim that one is in violation of God's grace by following a Sabbath, is legalism and bondage to me.

And again, I don't keep a Sabbath day, but I do respect the wishes of another to do so out of LOVE and not out of fear or belief that it saves them.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,159
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#87
I hope you know when I type things, it's in general, and not specifically speaking of you. I wanted to make that clear. I have no issues with you personally; as I don't know you. It's about an anti teaching about things in general.

And yet again though, is it wrong to take a day aside solely for worship, prayer, praise, study, unto God or not?

And I see nobody frustrating the grace of God by honoring a Sabbath day. The grace of God is what loved us and saved us. Why would I go back under a law for my salvation again, when Christ is the ultimate sacrifice? One would be putting themselves under the curse of the law if they were obeying the laws for their salvation. This is ultimately what the Word says. Not that we don't obey the law EVER!

If this is true, then don't do anything for God. I mean, one doesn't want to frustrate grace... right?

When the Word talks about bondage and being under the law, it speaks of our freedom in Christ. Paul recognized this when he told others not to judge someone who keeps the Sabbath day. It's our freedom to do so. If keeping the Sabbath was unholy and wrong, and frustrated grace, then the Bible would have made it very clear, and so would have Paul.

Here's also a news flash! I believe in a literal 1000 year reign... And do we know what's going to be going on during this time? The Torah will be taught throughout the entire world. So, the law is not important anymore, eh? But this isn't a topic on the Millennial Reign, but about current events here and now. To claim that one is in violation of God's grace by following a Sabbath, is legalism and bondage to me.

And again, I don't keep a Sabbath day, but I do respect the wishes of another to do so out of LOVE and not out of fear or belief that it saves them.
I hope you give the same emotional response to those who would try to push their laws and sabbath keeping on others, Who try to push if we do not obey these things, then we either can not be saved, or will lose our salvation. That we maintain our salvation by following these and other laws of moses, and attack those who disagree with the REASON they are obeying them or trying to push them, and not those who gladly obey them out of true love, not expecting anything in return.
I say this, because if you read, and even stusy those who normallu push these laws. That is exactly what they are pushing and if yu try to question them, They will say you hate them because they want to Obey God because they love him (what i have come to know as a automatic response, or as some call, a strawman argument)


These are the people grandpa and myself and many others are standing against, Not norma every day people who happen to love to take saterday off as a day of rest, in honor of God
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,159
10,550
113
#88
And your whole premise is about SIN! That's why the Lamb was slain. I don't see Sabbath keepers slaughtering lambs to cover their sins... do you?

You make it sound like someone that chooses to "WORSHIP" the living God is a heretic. Are you seeing what you have given?

No work so that I can focus on scripture
No cooking, so I can focus on scripture (cook day before)
No phone, no internet, no television, no carnal books (just scripture)
No cleaning house
No outside lawn care

Add to the list however you wish, but that is wrong? U're basically saying anyone that chooses to do those things, so they can get away from the worlds garbage and influence, so they can devote and spend time with their God in heaven, is wrong? So they can prayer and study God's Word... it's wrong?

There is no need to slaughter a lamb anymore. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: (YES! If you think your salvation comes from obeying the law, u're under the law)

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Serving our God on a Sabbath day is not what I"d call walking 'after the flesh', so therefore there is no condemnation except from those that hate the law and the Sabbath.


Presenting yourselves holy and acceptable unto God, as a living sacrifice... Someone wants to sacrifice television, books, computers, internet, phone calls, going shopping, and the like... what do you call that? I would call it a 'living sacrifice' unto God because they want to set that day apart for Him, Christ, with study, prayer, worship, and sacrifice from the worldly things that we all get wrapped up in. Nope, I see nothing wrong here!
Your not listening to grandpa at all. And you do not understand the argument. And because of this, you are slandering him by declairing he is doing something he is not doing.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#89
Your not listening to grandpa at all. And you do not understand the argument. And because of this, you are slandering him by declairing he is doing something he is not doing.
I am speaking in general. And it seems he's not listening to me either. So it does go both ways.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#90
I hope you give the same emotional response to those who would try to push their laws and sabbath keeping on others, Who try to push if we do not obey these things, then we either can not be saved, or will lose our salvation. That we maintain our salvation by following these and other laws of moses, and attack those who disagree with the REASON they are obeying them or trying to push them, and not those who gladly obey them out of true love, not expecting anything in return.
I say this, because if you read, and even stusy those who normallu push these laws. That is exactly what they are pushing and if yu try to question them, They will say you hate them because they want to Obey God because they love him (what i have come to know as a automatic response, or as some call, a strawman argument)


These are the people grandpa and myself and many others are standing against, Not norma every day people who happen to love to take saterday off as a day of rest, in honor of God
My original post was not about those that push it or belittling others for not doing so. It was in reference to those that do it b/c that is one way they honor God the Father. But to answer your statement, of course I would speak against someone forcing it upon someone else. It goes both ways.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#91
My original post was not about those that push it or belittling others for not doing so. It was in reference to those that do it b/c that is one way they honor God the Father. But to answer your statement, of course I would speak against someone forcing it upon someone else. It goes both ways.
Ok. There are many people who do this. Some who have been liking your posts.

When are you going to confront them?

Maybe grandpa is not seeing what your saying becaue he does not see you speak against those who doing what we are talking about. So he is doubting what your main goal is? (Remembering your not the first one to bring this up, and mosty of the time, we have seen there are alterior motives)
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,159
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#92
I am speaking in general. And it seems he's not listening to me either. So it does go both ways.
He is not speaking in general. He is speakng against those who attack others who do not obey the sabaath or think it is required. Or think one is not saved if they do not obey certain jewish laws
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
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davidclark.hearnow.com
#93
Ok. There are many people who do this. Some who have been liking your posts.

When are you going to confront them?

Maybe grandpa is not seeing what your saying becaue he does not see you speak against those who doing what we are talking about. So he is doubting what your main goal is? (Remembering your not the first one to bring this up, and mosty of the time, we have seen there are alterior motives)
I have yet so see anyone in this thread tell anyone that it's a MUST to follow the law. This is why I have not spoken about it. Have I missed a post concerning this? Now I feel the need to go back and read everything, but I do not recollect anyone telling me, or anyone else, in this conversation, that one must follow the Sabbath or they are not in God's will... etc..
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#94
He is not speaking in general. He is speakng against those who attack others who do not obey the sabaath or think it is required. Or think one is not saved if they do not obey certain jewish laws
And again, I have not seen anyone in this conversation say this. If they did, I would equally deny that claim. It's not about doing for salvation, as Christ covered that aspect once and for all.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#95
I have yet so see anyone in this thread tell anyone that it's a MUST to follow the law. This is why I have not spoken about it. Have I missed a post concerning this? Now I feel the need to go back and read everything, but I do not recollect anyone telling me, or anyone else, in this conversation, that one must follow the Sabbath or they are not in God's will... etc..
You may need to go back to other threads.. There are a group of people who have condemned others for tthe very thing. I have not looked at their posts in this thread. So maybe they have not.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#96
And again, I have not seen anyone in this conversation say this. If they did, I would equally deny that claim. It's not about doing for salvation, as Christ covered that aspect once and for all.
Then you would believe as we believe, And if you argued like we argued against those who do so it You would be attacked like we are by them telling you you hate those who love to obey Gods law..

My bible says I should not judge anyone who follows the saterday sabaath, nor shudl they judge those who hold every day to the lord.

Its sad we even have to have these conversations.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#97
You may need to go back to other threads.. There are a group of people who have condemned others for tthe very thing. I have not looked at their posts in this thread. So maybe they have not.
Ah... no worries lol... I don't have the desire nor the time to sift through other threads on this. If it is brought up during my own thread, then I will be glad to point our error on 'both' sides; if I believe one is in error.

People equally have the right to follow or not follow the Sabbath. To say one cannot and to say one must are equally wrong. It's about freedom from all this judgment. We are no longer in bondage.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
291
205
43
davidclark.hearnow.com
#98
Then you would believe as we believe, And if you argued like we argued against those who do so it You would be attacked like we are by them telling you you hate those who love to obey Gods law..

My bible says I should not judge anyone who follows the saterday sabaath, nor shudl they judge those who hold every day to the lord.

Its sad we even have to have these conversations.
I do believe that we have the right to follow the Sabbath if we want; without judgment. But on the flip side, we have the right not to be in bondage of it if believe Christ is our Sabbath; without judgment.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,159
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#99
Ah... no worries lol... I don't have the desire nor the time to sift through other threads on this. If it is brought up during my own thread, then I will be glad to point our error on 'both' sides; if I believe one is in error.

People equally have the right to follow or not follow the Sabbath. To say one cannot and to say one must are equally wrong. It's about freedom from all this judgment. We are no longer in bondage.
All I am saying is trying to argue that people are attacking all people who attempt to obey the sabbath is not true. It is ony said by those who are doing the very thing I am saying.

If someone comes in and praises God that he was given Saturday to rest. And oh how he loves it. No one will most likely say a word to him .

If he tries to push it, People will ask them questions.

If they find out he believes people who do not obey are losing their salvation. Not saved, or at risk for losing salvation. Then the heat starts. And the accusations start flying.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,146
3,076
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I have pleaded with all to learn aout the law as it stands since He came, that is according to His teaching we should obey God, Yahweh, and for posting this I have been accused of telling people they are under the law.

Yet, no matter how many times I explain that we are only saved by the mercy of God by grace and not by obedience….....others choose to say this is being under the law.

YOu have explained it much better than I have been able. I like how you teach it is not under the law to love God and be grateful to Him by obeying what we believe Jesus teaaches about the law now.

What the majority if not all of those opposed say it I am saying we must obey all i613 of the laws of Moses while all know that is impot timessible since Jesus Christ makes teh lion's portion no long necessary, sacrificial, priesthood, Temple, etc...…… I think I have pointed this out in more detail to those mentioned dozens of times but they choose to ignore what they are informed of.

I do not believe Jesus Christ, Yeshua, was kidding around nor was He suggesting anything when He taught that we should not teach against the law…….I believe I understand Him, but passing it on falls on deaf ears, blind eyes and hearts, f, of stone.