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And some Christians think they have mored than they do. It's Montanism. An ancient heresy.
And your statement still doesnt make any sense, regardless of your obscure and illogical attempt at allegory.
A baby can talk the same gibberish that charismatics do. It's a fact. And anyone can mimic the same gibberings. Its not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
Calling me names is not gonna change that shroomer.
Theres nothing in the bible that says talk gibberish. The reason so many look ridiculous is coz it IS ridiculous...the whole scene.
Flee from the third wave movement....its so far away from true doctrine.
And your statement still doesnt make any sense, regardless of your obscure and illogical attempt at allegory.
A baby can talk the same gibberish that charismatics do. It's a fact. And anyone can mimic the same gibberings. Its not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
Calling me names is not gonna change that shroomer.
Theres nothing in the bible that says talk gibberish. The reason so many look ridiculous is coz it IS ridiculous...the whole scene.
Flee from the third wave movement....its so far away from true doctrine.
C
14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Paul is saying here that if he prays in Hebrew or another language...then indeed he is praying to God. It's genuine. Thats what he means by 'my spirit prayeth'. He's REALLY praying. But when he says 'my understanding is unfruitful' he means his knowledge and understanding of that language (Hebrew or others) is unfruitful TO THOSE WHO MAY BE LISTENING TO HIS PRAYER because they don't know any foreign languages.
IOW....Him praying with the understanding of an unknown tongue is unfruitful when in the company of those who don't have that understanding. He qualifies this meaning in V16 where he says there may be people listening who dont understand. They cannot learn from him when he's talking Hebrew. It's unfruitful.
The verse doesn't mean...Tongues (gibberish) is for praying.
14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
So here he underlines that when he prays, he will do it in a fashion where there will be understanding. IOW...in a language where those around him will understand him. In THEIR language. whether he's praying or singing.
The verse doesnt mean...Tongues (gibberish) is for blessings.The verse doesnt mean...Tongues (gibberish) is for singing.
14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
Can you see how the verses are panning out? He continues the rebuke. Now he says if you are going to give blessings do that in a language understood by all too, otherwise they will not be able to say Amen with full understanding.
14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
...becasue if you do it in a foreign language YOU will give thanks but it doesnt profit anyone else! It's a rebuke.
The verse doesnt mean...Tongues (gibberish) is for giving thanks.
14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
He's grateful God has blessed him with the ability to speak many languages that others are not learned of BUT.....:
14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
...he would rather say next to NOTHING in a language that carries understanding than a massive speach in Hebrew or another of the many languages that he speaks that the brethren in Corinth don't.
Still no response to this?
Still no response to this?
U
And yet you post this shroom.
"Try a better translation"
13) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
"Though I speak", not "If I could speak"
You claim that Paul did in fact "speak in the tongues of angels"......but then say "angels don't speak in tongues". I guess this can only mean that angels (in God's Spirit realm ,no less) have their own "language", huh ? I mean seriously shroom.......is any of this making any sense at all to you ? Not trying to be critical shroom. I happen to think that you're a good egg
"Try a better translation"
13) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
"Though I speak", not "If I could speak"
You claim that Paul did in fact "speak in the tongues of angels"......but then say "angels don't speak in tongues". I guess this can only mean that angels (in God's Spirit realm ,no less) have their own "language", huh ? I mean seriously shroom.......is any of this making any sense at all to you ? Not trying to be critical shroom. I happen to think that you're a good egg
Paul is saying that when he speaks in tongues, it is his spirit interacting with God, but his mind is unfruitful, meaning he does not understand what he is saying. The bible says when you speak in tongues, you do not understand the language you are speaking. "For no man understandeth".
That statement makes no sense. How can a man "pray with the understanding of an unknown tongue"? When you speak in tongues, you do not understand what you are saying.
He is speaking in tongues, he is not speaking Hebrew. And tongues is always unfruitful to other prople unless it's interpreted.
Tongues is not gibberish. And it is for praying. Your spirit talks to God.
No, he says that he will speak in tongues (privately, unless interpreted) and he will pray with his understanding (his language). It does not say that when he speaks in tongues others present will understand what he is saying.
Tongues is not gibberish. Tongues will build you up spiritually.
Tongues is not gibberish. Tongues will build you up spiritually.
That's right. Speaking in tongues in a public situation is pointless unless it's interpreted.
That's right. He was instructing them to not speak in tongues in a public situation without interpreting. Other people will not benefit.
Tongues is not gibberish. And one of the things you are doing when you speak in tongues is giving thanks well.
He's thankful that God told him he speaks in tongues more than the corinthian church. When you speak in tongues, you do not understand what you are saying.
He would rather teach in the language that the people understand (the one he knew) than stand up and speak in tongues. When speaking in tongues is done in public, it is to be interpreted.
There you go, but I'm betting it doesn't change your misconceptions.
That statement makes no sense. How can a man "pray with the understanding of an unknown tongue"? When you speak in tongues, you do not understand what you are saying.
He is speaking in tongues, he is not speaking Hebrew. And tongues is always unfruitful to other prople unless it's interpreted.
Tongues is not gibberish. And it is for praying. Your spirit talks to God.
No, he says that he will speak in tongues (privately, unless interpreted) and he will pray with his understanding (his language). It does not say that when he speaks in tongues others present will understand what he is saying.
Tongues is not gibberish. Tongues will build you up spiritually.
Tongues is not gibberish. Tongues will build you up spiritually.
That's right. Speaking in tongues in a public situation is pointless unless it's interpreted.
That's right. He was instructing them to not speak in tongues in a public situation without interpreting. Other people will not benefit.
Tongues is not gibberish. And one of the things you are doing when you speak in tongues is giving thanks well.
He's thankful that God told him he speaks in tongues more than the corinthian church. When you speak in tongues, you do not understand what you are saying.
He would rather teach in the language that the people understand (the one he knew) than stand up and speak in tongues. When speaking in tongues is done in public, it is to be interpreted.
There you go, but I'm betting it doesn't change your misconceptions.
And yet you post this shroom.
"Try a better translation"
13) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
"Though I speak", not "If I could speak"
You claim that Paul did in fact "speak in the tongues of angels"......but then say "angels don't speak in tongues". I guess this can only mean that angels (in God's Spirit realm ,no less) have their own "language", huh ? I mean seriously shroom.......is any of this making any sense at all to you ? Not trying to be critical shroom. I happen to think that you're a good egg
"Try a better translation"
13) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
"Though I speak", not "If I could speak"
You claim that Paul did in fact "speak in the tongues of angels"......but then say "angels don't speak in tongues". I guess this can only mean that angels (in God's Spirit realm ,no less) have their own "language", huh ? I mean seriously shroom.......is any of this making any sense at all to you ? Not trying to be critical shroom. I happen to think that you're a good egg
Yes, it makes sense. Tongues will be in the language of men or of angels. I'm sure angels have some method of communicating, even if it's telepathic, but they have to get the meaning across to each other somehow. In other words, they use words that each other understand.
And angels do not speak in tongues, meaning they do not manifest God's gift of holy spirit by speaking in a language they do not understand as energized by God. The gift of holy spirit is given to men when they believe.
Tongues of Angels
By D. Gene West
From time to time we receive questions from members of the congregation, and one that we received recently has to do with the tongues of angels mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:1. We enjoy receiving questions from time to time because it indicates that people are studying the Bible for themselves, and that they are serious about that study in that they are asking questions about the things they do not understand. The passage under consideration reads as follows:
As to whether or not God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the angels have a language that is reserved for them in heaven, one would have no way of knowing since that has not been revealed to man. One may assume that is the case, but that would be only an assumption and not proof.
In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul is using a figure of speech which basically means that if he had the ability to speak all the languages of heaven and earth, and did not love his brother and fellow man, then his orations in these languages would sound like someone beating on a tub. His efforts would simply be noise and nothing more. He is speaking hypothetically, saying that if he could master all the languages of men, and even those of angels, if such existed different from the languages of man, and still had no love in his heart, he really was quite worthless.
The words of Paul in the first part of the verse are a conditional clause, and as such, it indicates that Paul does not himself engage in speaking in foreign languages in the public worship of the church. Lenski points out that Paul is saying in effect, “Suppose that I as the Lord’s apostle have the highest possible gift of tongues, those that men use, and even those that angels use -- how you Corinthians would admire, even envy me and desire to have an equal gift!” (P.545, 1 Corinthians 13)
He is trying to get the Corinthians to see that they are placing emphasis on the wrong thing, that what is important in the exercise of the Christian faith is not speaking in tongues. As a matter of fact, he forbid the use of languages at Corinth unless there was an interpreter present, but what is important is having a deep and abiding love in our hearts for our fellow man, and especially for our brethren (Galatians 6:10).
When the angels of God appeared to Abraham in the planes of Mamre to tell him that he was going to have a son in a year from that time, they spoke to Abraham in a language he could understand. Since Abraham came from Ur of Chaldees, it can be safely assumed that he spoke the language of the Chaldean. When the angels spoke to him they must have spoken to him in a way that he could understand for he knew immediately what the message was! Furthermore, Sarah, who was listening to what was said, also understood the message of the angels, and laughed. Abraham understood the language of the angels when they told him that they were going to see how wicked Sodom had become and perhaps destroy it. Abraham began to bargain with them to save the people of Sodom, because Lot lived there. (See: Genesis 18.)
There may be languages spoken in heaven that man has never heard, and if there are, and if man could master those languages, and if he did not love as he ought, the mastery of those languages would do nothing for him except make him like someone banging on a brass cymbal! This is the proper interpretation of the meaning of 1 Corinthians 13:1.
Speaking in Tongues
By D. Gene West
From time to time we receive questions from members of the congregation, and one that we received recently has to do with the tongues of angels mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:1. We enjoy receiving questions from time to time because it indicates that people are studying the Bible for themselves, and that they are serious about that study in that they are asking questions about the things they do not understand. The passage under consideration reads as follows:
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.”
If I am understanding the question properly the questioner wants to know if the angels in heaven speak a language all their own, and is that what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the languages “of men and of angels”? As to what languages may be spoken in heaven by the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the angels, those of us who dwell on the earth would have no way of knowing. Every time the Bible speaks of something that is said in heaven, or something that is said by God or by angels that has been spoken in the languages in which the Bible was written, or in the language spoken by the hearers at the time, it is intelligible to mankind. For example, at the transfiguration of Jesus the voice of God came out of a cloud and said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.” That statement was understood by those who heard the voice, just as was the statement that God made at the baptism of Jesus. The Jews, at that point in their history spoke a language commonly called Aramaic, and so it must be presumed that when God spoke, he spoke in that language. If that is not the case, then unless there was the miracle of interpretation, the people would not have understood what was said by the heavenly voice. As to whether or not God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the angels have a language that is reserved for them in heaven, one would have no way of knowing since that has not been revealed to man. One may assume that is the case, but that would be only an assumption and not proof.
In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul is using a figure of speech which basically means that if he had the ability to speak all the languages of heaven and earth, and did not love his brother and fellow man, then his orations in these languages would sound like someone beating on a tub. His efforts would simply be noise and nothing more. He is speaking hypothetically, saying that if he could master all the languages of men, and even those of angels, if such existed different from the languages of man, and still had no love in his heart, he really was quite worthless.
The words of Paul in the first part of the verse are a conditional clause, and as such, it indicates that Paul does not himself engage in speaking in foreign languages in the public worship of the church. Lenski points out that Paul is saying in effect, “Suppose that I as the Lord’s apostle have the highest possible gift of tongues, those that men use, and even those that angels use -- how you Corinthians would admire, even envy me and desire to have an equal gift!” (P.545, 1 Corinthians 13)
He is trying to get the Corinthians to see that they are placing emphasis on the wrong thing, that what is important in the exercise of the Christian faith is not speaking in tongues. As a matter of fact, he forbid the use of languages at Corinth unless there was an interpreter present, but what is important is having a deep and abiding love in our hearts for our fellow man, and especially for our brethren (Galatians 6:10).
When the angels of God appeared to Abraham in the planes of Mamre to tell him that he was going to have a son in a year from that time, they spoke to Abraham in a language he could understand. Since Abraham came from Ur of Chaldees, it can be safely assumed that he spoke the language of the Chaldean. When the angels spoke to him they must have spoken to him in a way that he could understand for he knew immediately what the message was! Furthermore, Sarah, who was listening to what was said, also understood the message of the angels, and laughed. Abraham understood the language of the angels when they told him that they were going to see how wicked Sodom had become and perhaps destroy it. Abraham began to bargain with them to save the people of Sodom, because Lot lived there. (See: Genesis 18.)
There may be languages spoken in heaven that man has never heard, and if there are, and if man could master those languages, and if he did not love as he ought, the mastery of those languages would do nothing for him except make him like someone banging on a brass cymbal! This is the proper interpretation of the meaning of 1 Corinthians 13:1.
Speaking in Tongues
Up to this point, he is right.
As with most theologians, this guy does not know what tongues is. It is not the "gift of languages". It is a manifestation of the gift of holy spirit. It is a believer speaking by the spirit of God within him.
Right. They were communicating. In order to communicate, both sides must understand what is being said.
No, it is not.
As with most theologians, this guy does not know what tongues is. It is not the "gift of languages". It is a manifestation of the gift of holy spirit. It is a believer speaking by the spirit of God within him.
Right. They were communicating. In order to communicate, both sides must understand what is being said.
No, it is not.
- 1 Corinthians 13:1
IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 13 (Whole Chapter)
I believe that some people are overlooking the fact that the Holy Spirit gave them the utterance. It can't be about speaking languages in the church that we know ourselves. When we consider that the Holy Spirit gives the utterance it is something that should be reverenced. You can't tell the Holy Spirit what language to speak. You can't make up standards that the Holy Spirit must meet. The fact that the Bible mentions an interpreter in the Holy Spirit is important, the person giving the tongues speaks as the Spirit gives the utterance and the person who has the gift of interpreting is given the utterance aswell. There is no room to be judging the Holy Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
No man understands him IN THE CHURCH HE IS AT. This verse is not saying no man in the entire world including Paul himself is not understanding the language being spoken, its just saying no one will understand him.
Lets take your average orthodox Christian scholars thoughts on it:
BARNES
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.
Speaketh not unto men - Does not speak so that people can understand him. His address is really not made to people, that is, to the church. He might have this faculty without being able to speak to the edification of the church. It is possible that the power of speaking foreign languages and of prophesying were sometimes united in the same person; but it is evident that the apostle speaks of them as different endowments, and they probably were found usually in different individuals.
But unto God - It is as if he spoke to God. No one could understand him but God. This must evidently refer to the addresses “in the church,” when Christians only were present, or when those only were present who spoke the same language, and who were unacquainted with foreign tongues. Paul says that “there” that faculty would be valueless compared with the power of speaking in a manner that should edify the church. He did not undervalue the power of speaking foreign languages when foreigners were present, or when they went to preach to foreigners; see 1Co_14:22. It was only when it was needless, when all present spoke one language, that he speaks of it as of comparatively little value.
For no man understandeth him - That is, no man in the church, since they all spoke the same language, and that language was different from what was spoken by him who was endowed with the gift of tongues. As God only could know the import of what he said, it would be lost upon the church, and would be useless.
Howbeit in the Spirit - Although, by the aid of the Spirit, he should, in fact, deliver the most important and sublime truths. This would doubtless be the case, that those who were thus endowed would deliver most important truths, but they would be “lost” upon those who heard them, because they could not understand them. The phrase “in the Spirit,” evidently means “by the Holy Spirit,” that is, by his aid and influence. Though he should be “really” under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and though the important truth which he delivers should be imparted by his aid, yet all would be valueless unless it were understood by the church.
He speaketh mysteries - For the meaning of the word “mystery,” see Note, 1Co_2:7. The word here seems to be synonymous with sublime and elevated truth; truth that was not before known, and that might be of the utmost importance.
The verse is not talking about gibberish, its talking about earthly languages.
Anyway, we know what you think Shroom...but what did you think of my interpretation of V 14:14? You didnt really comment on it:
Paul is saying here that if he prays in Hebrew or another language...then indeed he is praying to God. It's genuine. Thats what he means by 'my spirit prayeth'. He's REALLY praying. But when he says 'my understanding is unfruitful' he means his knowledge and understanding of that language (Hebrew or others) is unfruitful TO THOSE WHO MAY BE LISTENING TO HIS PRAYER because they don't know any foreign languages.
**sigh**
He DOES understand what he's saying.....the OTHER people dont. So HIS understanding of a foreign language is unfruitful for them.
He is speaking in A TONGUE (A foreign language). Hebrew was an example. Yes, tongues (a foreign language) is always unfruitful to other prople unless it's interpreted. Agreed.
Its not talking about gibberish.
Speaking a foreign language allows your spirit to talk to God, but doesnt edify the church cuz others dont understand. It's a straightforward verse that Charismatics spin to excuse unbilical behaviour like blathering gibberish.
Again, you didnt comment on my interpretation. Your just repeating charismatic twaddle. Here it is again....what do you think about it? Just saying NO is not a rebuttle.
14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
It is gibberish, and it will build you up spiritually...but the wrong spirit.
Thats right. And we're still talking about FOREIGN LANGUAGES.
Thats right. And we're still talking about FOREIGN LANGUAGES.
oops...Paul says different:
I will pray with the understanding also
Yes Paul spoke many foreign languages.
Thats got naught to do with our scripture. When YOU speak gibberish you do not understand what you are saying thats for sure!
Thats right. And we're still talking about FOREIGN LANGUAGES.
No man understands him IN THE CHURCH HE IS AT. This verse is not saying no man in the entire world including Paul himself is not understanding the language being spoken, its just saying no one will understand him.
Lets take your average orthodox Christian scholars thoughts on it:
BARNES
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.
Speaketh not unto men - Does not speak so that people can understand him. His address is really not made to people, that is, to the church. He might have this faculty without being able to speak to the edification of the church. It is possible that the power of speaking foreign languages and of prophesying were sometimes united in the same person; but it is evident that the apostle speaks of them as different endowments, and they probably were found usually in different individuals.
But unto God - It is as if he spoke to God. No one could understand him but God. This must evidently refer to the addresses “in the church,” when Christians only were present, or when those only were present who spoke the same language, and who were unacquainted with foreign tongues. Paul says that “there” that faculty would be valueless compared with the power of speaking in a manner that should edify the church. He did not undervalue the power of speaking foreign languages when foreigners were present, or when they went to preach to foreigners; see 1Co_14:22. It was only when it was needless, when all present spoke one language, that he speaks of it as of comparatively little value.
For no man understandeth him - That is, no man in the church, since they all spoke the same language, and that language was different from what was spoken by him who was endowed with the gift of tongues. As God only could know the import of what he said, it would be lost upon the church, and would be useless.
Howbeit in the Spirit - Although, by the aid of the Spirit, he should, in fact, deliver the most important and sublime truths. This would doubtless be the case, that those who were thus endowed would deliver most important truths, but they would be “lost” upon those who heard them, because they could not understand them. The phrase “in the Spirit,” evidently means “by the Holy Spirit,” that is, by his aid and influence. Though he should be “really” under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and though the important truth which he delivers should be imparted by his aid, yet all would be valueless unless it were understood by the church.
He speaketh mysteries - For the meaning of the word “mystery,” see Note, 1Co_2:7. The word here seems to be synonymous with sublime and elevated truth; truth that was not before known, and that might be of the utmost importance.
The verse is not talking about gibberish, its talking about earthly languages.
Anyway, we know what you think Shroom...but what did you think of my interpretation of V 14:14? You didnt really comment on it:
Paul is saying here that if he prays in Hebrew or another language...then indeed he is praying to God. It's genuine. Thats what he means by 'my spirit prayeth'. He's REALLY praying. But when he says 'my understanding is unfruitful' he means his knowledge and understanding of that language (Hebrew or others) is unfruitful TO THOSE WHO MAY BE LISTENING TO HIS PRAYER because they don't know any foreign languages.
**sigh**
He DOES understand what he's saying.....the OTHER people dont. So HIS understanding of a foreign language is unfruitful for them.
He is speaking in A TONGUE (A foreign language). Hebrew was an example. Yes, tongues (a foreign language) is always unfruitful to other prople unless it's interpreted. Agreed.
Its not talking about gibberish.
Speaking a foreign language allows your spirit to talk to God, but doesnt edify the church cuz others dont understand. It's a straightforward verse that Charismatics spin to excuse unbilical behaviour like blathering gibberish.
Again, you didnt comment on my interpretation. Your just repeating charismatic twaddle. Here it is again....what do you think about it? Just saying NO is not a rebuttle.
14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
So here he underlines that when he prays, he will do it in a fashion where there will be understanding. IOW...in a language where those around him will understand him. In THEIR language. whether he's praying or singing.
It is gibberish, and it will build you up spiritually...but the wrong spirit.
Thats right. And we're still talking about FOREIGN LANGUAGES.
Thats right. And we're still talking about FOREIGN LANGUAGES.
oops...Paul says different:
I will pray with the understanding also
Yes Paul spoke many foreign languages.
Thats got naught to do with our scripture. When YOU speak gibberish you do not understand what you are saying thats for sure!
Thats right. And we're still talking about FOREIGN LANGUAGES.