Praying in Tongues

[RickyZ]

So you mean that somebody who prayes in tongues open his heart for God more, then somebody who praises God with understandable words?

WRONG. Not speaking in tongues does not make you a 'second class Christian'. It just allows the HS to speak thru you things you don't know about.

 

[wolfwint]

WRONG. Not speaking in tongues does not make you a 'second class Christian'. It just allows the HS to speak thru you things you don't know about.

So the Holy Spirit speaks only through those which are speaking in tongues.
But not through those which have not this gift.
Another thing if you dont know what you say ore pray. How you know that this is something you dont know about?

 

[RickyZ]

So the Holy Spirit speaks only through those which are speaking in tongues.
But not through those which have not this gift.
Another thing if you dont know what you say ore pray. How you know that this is something you dont know about?

No, you're reading into that. Read what is there. Extrapolation is not your friend.

While praying, I didn't know a girl named Vicki was about to start cutting herself. But I did receive knowledge that someone was in danger and needed intercession. Never would have known any of it if I hadn't allowed the HS to act outside the bounds of my knowledge. If I had not prayed in the Spirit would God have found another way to intercede? Maybe. Or maybe poor Vicki would have killed herself.

 

[garee]

The SIGN gifts (tongues, healing, prophecy, etc) were given to the apostles. There are no apostles today. Have not been any since the last of the 12 went to their Lord. These gifts have ceased. Chrysostom, in his homilies on sign gifts, said that these "gifts" had cease so long ago that noone understood what they were. Those homilies were written in 4th century.

If you think if you are inspired by God to brining his word as prophecy then you are a apostle.(sent one) Its another word that has been added to with another meaning to make the true meaning to no effect when it comes to reasoning. This is in violation to the warning in Deuteronomy 4:3 not to add to a word singular. Change the meaning of one word change the authorship of the whole.

I think the Catholic church originally made it to no effect in order to gives the idea of apostolic succession as venerable ones giving them a false an authority that they used to lord over the pew Catholic as the non venerable ones.

All who are sent with the gospel the word of God are considered apostles sent by God . God sent Able as a apostle and his brother Cain who seen no value in the things of God killed the messenger . The first recorded martyr. The twelve a remnant were set apart from the whole to be used in a parable in Revelation 21. The new testament list 27 apostles .

The gifts have not ceased just new prophecy that could bring new knowledge. The last chapter or book Revelation remains the last .

Today we have the complete or the perfect. It is sealed up till the end of time with a warning not to add or subtract from the whole (Genesis through Revelation) .

 

[RickyZ]

Sign, sign
Everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery
Breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that
Can't you read the sign?

Read more: Five Man Electrical Band - Signs Lyrics | MetroLyrics

 

[notuptome]

Praying in tongues is never taught in the bible. When Paul alludes to praying in tongues he is using hyperbole just look at the context. Jesus never spoke in tongues and when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray Jesus taught them to pray in their normal native language.

At the end of the day one might determine that those who claim to pray in tongues simply do not know how to pray. The effectual prayer of the righteous availeth much.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Lanolin]

Actually Jesus did speak in tongues he spoke in.aramaic and Hebrew. He also understood greek.
See Mark 5:41 and Mark 7:34

If you want to pray in tongues theres nothing stopping you if you praying in your prayer closet...God will hear and understand, its not for anybody else.

 

[wolfwint]

Hello wolfwint, I trust all is well with you. I'll reply best I can.

You said, Quote: ""I you agree agree fully with the biblical text"".

However, most of your reply seamingly disagree's with the posted verses.

You said, Quote: "" At is was in the written time. But, I dont agree that the sign gifts are still today as it was in past"".

1st, I believe Matt 3 is 100% accurate

2ndly: 1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours
^^^Written to the, church of God/Body of Christ = believers, after the reurrection^^^

3rdly: Col 1:2 (A) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:
^^^Here again written to saints/in Christ Jesus = believers, after the resurrection^^^

You said, Quote: ""Because the sign gifts we find only taught in pentecostal and charismatic groups in connection with an special experience with the Holy Spirit"".

I can't answer your questions on pentecostal or charismatic groups. I fellowship at a Southern Baptist Church. Like you, the lead Pastor, doesn't believe the verses in Cor & Col are for today. I love my Pastor, even though, there are several pieces of doctrine he & I disagree on. He loves God & people & is extremely persuasive at soul winning. I can't think of a better place to hitch my wagon.

You said, Quote: ""The fact is that all other christian groups dont got these signgifts and special the gift of speaking/ praying in tongues. According the biblical text you showed that these gifts then must given from God to all christians, independ from their denominell background. And this is not""

No place did I say, gift's, are given to ALL Christian's. In fact, via my NOTES, I posted this:

1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
(NOTE: After salvation: Different people are given different spiritual gifts as the Spirit leads)

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
(NOTE: Everyone doesn't get the same gifts)

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(NOTE: Paul gives an order of importance in vs 28 & tells us to desire & pray for the best ones.)

You said, Quote: ""I have no difficulties with Gods working today with signs and wonders"".

Yet, much of your reply seamingly disagrees with posted scripture. Where God the Holy Spirit gives many spiritual gifts, to many different people

You said, Quote: ""But I have difficulties with the special from charismatic and pentecostal believers, that all others are less in relationship, and worship and faith, because they are not having the sign gifts. And as you quotet from 1. Cor.12, 30. Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues. From pentecostal and charismatic believers I often hear. That all can have the gift if speaking in tongues""

Earlier I said, I fellowship at a Southern Baptist Church where spiritual gifts are ignored. And that I can't answer questions on pentecostal or charismatic groups. Peace FD

Hello wolfwint, I trust all is well with you. I'll reply best I can.

You said, Quote: ""I you agree agree fully with the biblical text"".

However, most of your reply seamingly disagree's with the posted verses.

You said, Quote: "" At is was in the written time. But, I dont agree that the sign gifts are still today as it was in past"".

1st, I believe Matt 3 is 100% accurate

2ndly: 1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours
^^^Written to the, church of God/Body of Christ = believers, after the reurrection^^^

3rdly: Col 1:2 (A) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:
^^^Here again written to saints/in Christ Jesus = believers, after the resurrection^^^

You said, Quote: ""Because the sign gifts we find only taught in pentecostal and charismatic groups in connection with an special experience with the Holy Spirit"".

I can't answer your questions on pentecostal or charismatic groups. I fellowship at a Southern Baptist Church. Like you, the lead Pastor, doesn't believe the verses in Cor & Col are for today. I love my Pastor, even though, there are several pieces of doctrine he & I disagree on. He loves God & people & is extremely persuasive at soul winning. I can't think of a better place to hitch my wagon.

You said, Quote: ""The fact is that all other christian groups dont got these signgifts and special the gift of speaking/ praying in tongues. According the biblical text you showed that these gifts then must given from God to all christians, independ from their denominell background. And this is not""

No place did I say, gift's, are given to ALL Christian's. In fact, via my NOTES, I posted this:

1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
(NOTE: After salvation: Different people are given different spiritual gifts as the Spirit leads)

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
(NOTE: Everyone doesn't get the same gifts)

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(NOTE: Paul gives an order of importance in vs 28 & tells us to desire & pray for the best ones.)

You said, Quote: ""I have no difficulties with Gods working today with signs and wonders"".

Yet, much of your reply seamingly disagrees with posted scripture. Where God the Holy Spirit gives many spiritual gifts, to many different people

You said, Quote: ""But I have difficulties with the special from charismatic and pentecostal believers, that all others are less in relationship, and worship and faith, because they are not having the sign gifts. And as you quotet from 1. Cor.12, 30. Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues. From pentecostal and charismatic believers I often hear. That all can have the gift if speaking in tongues""

Earlier I said, I fellowship at a Southern Baptist Church where spiritual gifts are ignored. And that I can't answer questions on pentecostal or charismatic groups. Peace FD

Dear FD, yes it seems i express little missunderstoodable.
I agree of course with the scripture which you mentioned and lay out from 1. Corinthians. For the past. That we have spirituell gifts today I also agree.

What I wanted to add was concerning Joel 2, 28. The context and circumstances of Joel 2.28 are till today not fulfilled for the nation of Israel. So Peter could not mean the total fullfillement of Joel 2.28.

My critic was not to you, but against those groups which claiming that special the signgifts are today the same like in the apostolic time, where the bible was not finished.
I also criticise, but not to your adress, that this signgifts only are to get in combination with an special expierience with the Holy Spirit.
The OP made a statement which seems that there is an different in the reationship to the father, between praying in tongues ( not understandable words) and praying in understandable words.
And with this statement I not agree.

And yes, i would expect that if the signgifts would be for today, we would find them in all churches through the churchhistorie till today. In 1899 we find them only under groups which we called sects.
And it began with Topeka in 1900 when the first believer was baptised with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that the gift of speaking in tongues.
In the same year the pope dedicate the 20th century to the Holy Spirit.

Well, thank you for you reply and good night.

 

[wolfwint]

No, you're reading into that. Read what is there. Extrapolation is not your friend.

While praying, I didn't know a girl named Vicki was about to start cutting herself. But I did receive knowledge that someone was in danger and needed intercession. Never would have known any of it if I hadn't allowed the HS to act outside the bounds of my knowledge. If I had not prayed in the Spirit would God have found another way to intercede? Maybe. Or maybe poor Vicki would have killed herself.

But for this is must not pray in tongues. I got simila expierience and prayed for someone, because it came into my mind to do. But i needed not to pray in tongues for that.

 

[FlyingDove]

Dear FD, yes it seems i express little missunderstoodable.
I agree of course with the scripture which you mentioned and lay out from 1. Corinthians. For the past. That we have spirituell gifts today I also agree.

What I wanted to add was concerning Joel 2, 28. The context and circumstances of Joel 2.28 are till today not fulfilled for the nation of Israel. So Peter could not mean the total fullfillement of Joel 2.28.

My critic was not to you, but against those groups which claiming that special the signgifts are today the same like in the apostolic time, where the bible was not finished.
I also criticise, but not to your adress, that this signgifts only are to get in combination with an special expierience with the Holy Spirit.
The OP made a statement which seems that there is an different in the reationship to the father, between praying in tongues ( not understandable words) and praying in understandable words.
And with this statement I not agree.

And yes, i would expect that if the signgifts would be for today, we would find them in all churches through the churchhistorie till today. In 1899 we find them only under groups which we called sects.
And it began with Topeka in 1900 when the first believer was baptised with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that the gift of speaking in tongues.
In the same year the pope dedicate the 20th century to the Holy Spirit.

Well, thank you for you reply and good night.

Hi wolfwint, it's all good, best wishes. FD

 

[garee]

Sign, sign
Everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery
Breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that
Can't you read the sign?

Read more: Five Man Electrical Band - Signs Lyrics | MetroLyrics

I can remember that as if it was yesterday,.Long haired freaky people need not apply so I tucked my hair under my hat etc

I think there is a difference with a sign that we use concerning unseen spiritual matters .

Prophecy leads, signs follow to expose those who do not heed prophecy or have no need for the unseen things of God .

Sign that we use or used both ways together. The sign usual determines something as a shape with the words like do not pass, or the 60 mph . if it had the shape of a speeding sign with no instruction. Then I think you would be on the autobahn

I had a younger sister that when first started driving that asked me about them .Every time she would pass a sign that said "do not pass" she would be looking over her shoulder .

God brings a sign against those who will not believe prophecy. as those who seek after a sign before they will believe. Calling them a evil generation or forward generation, no faith .

Sign seeker have been around from the beginning. yet for all that they would not believe prophecy

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Tongues is a good example of those who break the law that divides prophecy from signs making the prophecy without effect and the sign to confirm something that apposes prophecy .

The law in 1 Cor. 14 applies to any sign that God bring against those who have no faith, Cain was a marked man in that way, a sign of unbelief, or no faith.

God brought signs and wonders against Egypt yet they still would not believe prophecy.

1 Corinthians 14:21-23 King James Version (KJV)In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Dino246]

If you think if you are inspired by God to brining his word as prophecy then you are a apostle.(sent one) Its another word that has been added to with another meaning to make the true meaning to no effect when it comes to reasoning. This is in violation to the warning in Deuteronomy 4:3 not to add to a word singular. Change the meaning of one word change the authorship of the whole.

I think the Catholic church originally made it to no effect in order to gives the idea of apostolic succession as venerable ones giving them a false an authority that they used to lord over the pew Catholic as the non venerable ones.

All who are sent with the gospel the word of God are considered apostles sent by God . God sent Able as a apostle and his brother Cain who seen no value in the things of God killed the messenger . The first recorded martyr. The twelve a remnant were set apart from the whole to be used in a parable in Revelation 21. The new testament list 27 apostles .

The gifts have not ceased just new prophecy that could bring new knowledge. The last chapter or book Revelation remains the last .

Today we have the complete or the perfect. It is sealed up till the end of time with a warning not to add or subtract from the whole (Genesis through Revelation) .

This is a summary of all the errors you write on this subject.

The role of apostle is not the role of prophet; they are distinct, per Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12.

Tongues is not prophecy; they are distinct, per 1 Corinthians 12 through 14.

You must have the reference incorrect regarding Deuteronomy 4:3; it says nothing about "word of the Lord".

The Catholic "church" has nothing to do with this.

While "apostle" does literally mean "sent one"; it is a fallacy to conclude that all sent ones are therefore apostles.

Nobody is claiming to add to Scripture when they speak in tongues. Please, stop making this ridiculous association. It reflects poorly on you when you repeat such error.

 

[Dino246]

Praying in tongues is never taught in the bible. When Paul alludes to praying in tongues he is using hyperbole just look at the context. Jesus never spoke in tongues and when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray Jesus taught them to pray in their normal native language.

Asserting that Paul's words were hyperbole, without providing any evidence beyond "just look at the context" is without merit. I've looked at the context, and I don't agree with you. While there is no record in Scripture of Jesus speaking in tongues, your argument is a fallacy - an argument from silence. There is record of the disciples and some new converts speaking in tongues; that is sufficient.

At the end of the day one might determine that those who claim to pray in tongues simply do not know how to pray.

That is a fallacious character assassination and has absolutely no merit. Or, more succinctly, that's c**p.

For the cause of Christ

Perhaps you should end with "For the cause of cessationism" instead.

 

[garee]

This is a summary of all the errors you write on this subject.

The role of apostle is not the role of prophet; they are distinct, per Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12.

Tongues is not prophecy; they are distinct, per 1 Corinthians 12 through 14.

You must have the reference incorrect regarding Deuteronomy 4:3; it says nothing about "word of the Lord".

The Catholic "church" has nothing to do with this.

While "apostle" does literally mean "sent one"; it is a fallacy to conclude that all sent ones are therefore apostles.

Nobody is claiming to add to Scripture when they speak in tongues. Please, stop making this ridiculous association. It reflects poorly on you when you repeat such error.

Yes distinct prophecy God's word is district from those he sends with it. The same with prophecy tongues. the sign is against those who believe not prophecy in any language to include their own. Just look at the law in 1 Cor. 14 as it relates to the foundation in Isaiah 28 .

Is God still bringing new prophecy that could be added to the book of Revelation? Is there a law missing by which we could know Him more perfectly or has the perfect come and no more new prophecy and therefore knowledge that comes with it.?

 

[calibob]

 

[Dino246]

Is God still bringing new prophecy that could be added to the book of Revelation? Is there a law missing by which we could know Him more perfectly or has the perfect come and no more new prophecy and therefore knowledge that comes with it.?

Does it give you pleasure to argue with NOBODY? After all, NOBODY is claiming what you argue against.

 

[RickyZ]

No, you're reading into that. Read what is there. Extrapolation is not your friend.

While praying, I didn't know a girl named Vicki was about to start cutting herself. But I did receive knowledge that someone was in danger and needed intercession. Never would have known any of it if I hadn't allowed the HS to act outside the bounds of my knowledge. If I had not prayed in the Spirit would God have found another way to intercede? Maybe. Or maybe poor Vicki would have killed herself.

Grace and truth, I'm sorry you find someone being rescued via the Holy Spirit to be worth a thumbs down. So, what ... suicide gets a thumbs up?

 

[RickyZ]

But for this is must not pray in tongues. I got simila expierience and prayed for someone, because it came into my mind to do. But i needed not to pray in tongues for that.

And that is perfectly legitimate.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is argument to be made that where it says tongues will cease, they will not stop being spoken, but at that point they become our primary language and cease to be KNOWN as tongues. (At that point English, French, German et al will be the tongues).

Prophecy, tongues, healing, all will cease come the Kingdom, until then there are many tongues in this age and teh gift of tongues yet is because we are yet in this age…………..

Nowhere does it mention the gifts of teh Holy Spirit will cease, that reference is only to the temporal need for these gifts if you are able to receive this.

 

[Nehemiah6]

+++Rediscover praying in Tongues if you have lapsed. Even a few minutes a day will help open your spirit, increase revelation in the Word, and strengthen you...

It is interesting to note that the Lord Jesus Christ taught us to pray in our own languages, as He prayed in His own language (Aramaic). The Book of Psalms is essentially a book of prayers and praise which were originally written in Hebrew (by divine inspiration) but translated into plain English. So most Christians will not pray in tongues (foreign languages which they do not know) but in their own languages. And that is perfectly satisfactory to God.