Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?
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If you told someone to come and meet you before lunch time and they came any time before lunch be 7am 9am etc is not that before also they can come 11:59 am it is still before hmmmm So to persons have preached the gospel for 1000 of years before Jesus come that does not mean that it only when it is 1 minute to the hr that we are now going to preach or before the Lord comes hmmmmmmmm
Romans 11:17-25
“And if some of the branches be broken off, and YOU, being a WILD OLIVE TREE, and were grafted in among them, and with them are partakers of the root and fatness of THE OLIVE TREE:
Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I may be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
For if God spared not the NATURAL BRANCHES, take heed that he spare not you.
Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of Godness which them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you CONTINUE in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
For if it were cut out of the OLIVE TREE which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good OLIVE TREE; how much more shall these, which be the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”
from this passage of scripture that the TWO OLIVE trees, which ARE the TWO WITNESSES are in fact two GROUPS of people rather than just two individual people are falsely taught.
“And if some of the branches be broken off, and YOU, being a WILD OLIVE TREE, and were grafted in among them, and with them are partakers of the root and fatness of THE OLIVE TREE:
Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I may be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
For if God spared not the NATURAL BRANCHES, take heed that he spare not you.
Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of Godness which them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you CONTINUE in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
For if it were cut out of the OLIVE TREE which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good OLIVE TREE; how much more shall these, which be the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”
from this passage of scripture that the TWO OLIVE trees, which ARE the TWO WITNESSES are in fact two GROUPS of people rather than just two individual people are falsely taught.
[h=3]Zechariah 4[/h]King James Version (KJV)
4 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
4 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
If you discern with His help of verse 14 & 15
Matthew 24:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Then you can understand the three angels setting everything up for the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth after the pre trib rapture as no one will have any excuse in not knowing the consequences of taking the mark of the beast, let alone not knowing the gospel which will be preached in all the world as a witness ( Matthew 24:14) & then from verse 15 comes that man of perdition.
Matthew 24:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Then you can understand the three angels setting everything up for the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth after the pre trib rapture as no one will have any excuse in not knowing the consequences of taking the mark of the beast, let alone not knowing the gospel which will be preached in all the world as a witness ( Matthew 24:14) & then from verse 15 comes that man of perdition.
What other areas of the Gospel are people "discerning" and "being led" into believing? Stick to the Word my friend, AS IT IS WRITTEN. DO NOT DISCERN FALSE DOCTRINE which actually totally contradicts the clear prophesy we have been given. This is what Satan does and he does it to deceive people. I am putting a fresh pot of coffee on for you dear friend.
Stop putting up a straw man just so you can blow it down.
1) 1 Thess. 4 has the Rapture before discussing day of the Lord trib. in 1 Thess. 5, also 2 Thess 2. has the tribulation after the Restrainer is removed (Holy Spirit indwelling saints) picturing Rapture
2)"Then we who are alive and remain are caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"--there is no example of the Greek work aera not meaning breathable air, so knock down that strawman too
3)The 5th seal of Rev., the 24 elders, the saints who come with Jesus at His 2nd coming
4)Agree, this is a proof against the post-trib Rapture, I think you meant to say "BEFORE tribulation".
5)The purpose of the 2 witnesses and 144K would seem to prove otherwise
6)We have distinctives in the future Return of Christ, one comes with no signs or prophecy needed before and is imminent, (Rapture), one comes with many signs preceding it and is impending (2nd coming). One can look at the similarities and ignore the differences or vice versa.
7)What we have in the OT is a distinctive plan for Israel to be God's holy people with a Holy law and a holy land and a holy King. Israel did not fulfill this purpose, but God promises to keep these promises. Orthodox Jews today still believe that the OT is not some quasi-allegorical references to a Messianic king, the promises are real! What is revealed in the NT is a broadening of God's purpose, the awesome revelation of Jew and Gentile being one in Christ. A true spiritual purpose and a beautiful thing! I am a child of Abraham by virtue of my faith in Christ. I am a Jew inwardly by being made righteous by God. All these purposes will be awesomely and completely fulfilled by Christ reigning on the earth for 1000 years, the culmination of human physical and spiritual history. God's plan will be all in all, it will accomplish His purposes for His physical and spiritual peoples.
The fact that there is disagreement does not mean one should erect strawmen just to blow them down. Granted, we disagree on certain passages, but it is disingenuous and faulty logic and dialogue to say there are none that evidence the pre-trib Rapture view. My challenge is not to mock viewpoints different from mine. You'll never find me saying "There are no Scriptures which support the Amillenial or Post-trib Rapture view." I understand we disagree on interpretation, not that there is no other interpretation.
1) 1 Thess. 4 has the Rapture before discussing day of the Lord trib. in 1 Thess. 5, also 2 Thess 2. has the tribulation after the Restrainer is removed (Holy Spirit indwelling saints) picturing Rapture
2)"Then we who are alive and remain are caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"--there is no example of the Greek work aera not meaning breathable air, so knock down that strawman too
3)The 5th seal of Rev., the 24 elders, the saints who come with Jesus at His 2nd coming
4)Agree, this is a proof against the post-trib Rapture, I think you meant to say "BEFORE tribulation".
5)The purpose of the 2 witnesses and 144K would seem to prove otherwise
6)We have distinctives in the future Return of Christ, one comes with no signs or prophecy needed before and is imminent, (Rapture), one comes with many signs preceding it and is impending (2nd coming). One can look at the similarities and ignore the differences or vice versa.
7)What we have in the OT is a distinctive plan for Israel to be God's holy people with a Holy law and a holy land and a holy King. Israel did not fulfill this purpose, but God promises to keep these promises. Orthodox Jews today still believe that the OT is not some quasi-allegorical references to a Messianic king, the promises are real! What is revealed in the NT is a broadening of God's purpose, the awesome revelation of Jew and Gentile being one in Christ. A true spiritual purpose and a beautiful thing! I am a child of Abraham by virtue of my faith in Christ. I am a Jew inwardly by being made righteous by God. All these purposes will be awesomely and completely fulfilled by Christ reigning on the earth for 1000 years, the culmination of human physical and spiritual history. God's plan will be all in all, it will accomplish His purposes for His physical and spiritual peoples.
The fact that there is disagreement does not mean one should erect strawmen just to blow them down. Granted, we disagree on certain passages, but it is disingenuous and faulty logic and dialogue to say there are none that evidence the pre-trib Rapture view. My challenge is not to mock viewpoints different from mine. You'll never find me saying "There are no Scriptures which support the Amillenial or Post-trib Rapture view." I understand we disagree on interpretation, not that there is no other interpretation.
My view is based on Scripture, the fact that you refer to the need for a miracle (Matt. 3:9) to have a physical millenial population would seem to be errant. To me this is not a primary evidence against post-trib, more like a tertiary evidence in post-trib having logical difficulties.
In Matt. 24 the ones taken away are taken away in judgment, that is clear from the passage.
And also to respond to the plain reading of 2 thess 1-2, I agree that the passage seems to point to only one coming. Paul speaks with a view to encourage the Thessalonians in their persecution that Jesus' 2nd coming will punish the wicked. They will be vindicated. But the day of the Lord hadn't come yet. And Paul referencing "our gathering together with Him" and the restrainer taken away give indications of a pre-trib Rapture. It's not that it's not in the text, it's that we have differences in what we see is there.
In Matt. 24 the ones taken away are taken away in judgment, that is clear from the passage.
And also to respond to the plain reading of 2 thess 1-2, I agree that the passage seems to point to only one coming. Paul speaks with a view to encourage the Thessalonians in their persecution that Jesus' 2nd coming will punish the wicked. They will be vindicated. But the day of the Lord hadn't come yet. And Paul referencing "our gathering together with Him" and the restrainer taken away give indications of a pre-trib Rapture. It's not that it's not in the text, it's that we have differences in what we see is there.
Luke 10:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: [SUP]24 [/SUP]For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
And what is worse, you are not even desiring to see them, but that is your choice. I reckon that would be the case for anyone that has made up their minds and does not care to address the points of contentions in the scripture, but even so, we need His wisdom to see what is hidden.
And what is worse, you are not even desiring to see them, but that is your choice. I reckon that would be the case for anyone that has made up their minds and does not care to address the points of contentions in the scripture, but even so, we need His wisdom to see what is hidden.
With respect, the whole conversation is the Day of the Lord, AKA the one and only return of the Lord. Paul never makes any distinguishing remarks. He is talking to the same group. He isn't then telling them they will be raptured before a Tribulation on the one hand, then tell them not to be deceived (by any means) and to wait for the Second Coming on the other hand.
The Holy Spirit is NOT retraining Satan. You have nothing identifying the HS as the one doing the restraining. Further, you have nothing that says the Holy Spirit's job is over at some Pre Trib Rapture whereby He leaves with the Church and allows Satan complete and unfettered reign on earth without any presence of God for those Saints and Israel. Your entire theory is conjecture and not ONE WORD of it can be proven with scripture. That isn't a straw man, those are the facts.
The Holy Spirit is NOT retraining Satan. You have nothing identifying the HS as the one doing the restraining. Further, you have nothing that says the Holy Spirit's job is over at some Pre Trib Rapture whereby He leaves with the Church and allows Satan complete and unfettered reign on earth without any presence of God for those Saints and Israel. Your entire theory is conjecture and not ONE WORD of it can be proven with scripture. That isn't a straw man, those are the facts.
My point is it isn't necessary to interpret when the Lord returns, He spells it out for us so very clearly and warns very implicitly not to be deceived. This topic is of great importance and will absolutely be a matter of life and death for some and loss of salvation for others. The implications of false doctrines can often be severe but getting this wrong is probably the gravest of all because if you expect Christ to come first, you will be fooled. Satan will appear to be Christ (hence Antichrist). The only thing we have to discern between Satan and the real Christ is the timing of their appearances. That's why the Lord and Paul were so adamant about the timing and to "not go forth."
But friend, I can only plead with someone so much. At some point I have to walk away and leave you and those that think you like to your fantasies and the ramifications of them. Good luck to you and God bless.
But friend, I can only plead with someone so much. At some point I have to walk away and leave you and those that think you like to your fantasies and the ramifications of them. Good luck to you and God bless.
The "day of the Lord" is used in the OT as the day of God's judgment and the day of God's blessing. It is pictured sometimes as a long period, sometimes as a short one. Sometimes it's pictured as full of complete darkness, sometimes as complete blessing. It's a very rich term. Paul uses it the same way, it's not just the one day of the Lord's return, it's the judgment, the coming and the blessing. I don't want Paul to be talking out of both sides of his mouth, the truth of his teaching has meaning to Christian's now and will have meaning to Christian's during the Tribulation. We both agree there's meaning there, we just disagree that these are the same people.
The restrainer is referred to in 2 Thess. 2 both with masculine and neuter pronouns, the same way the Holy Spirit is referred to in the gospel of John. It's clear that God the Holy Spirit can restrain Satan and all Christians suddenly leaving the earth would be a definite increase in Satan's power. This does not mean that the Holy Spirit will not then baptize and fill new Christians who believe during the Tribulation, I would hope no one would think or say that.
I've enjoyed the discussion, I think we've both made good points. I hope we can both "look for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
The restrainer is referred to in 2 Thess. 2 both with masculine and neuter pronouns, the same way the Holy Spirit is referred to in the gospel of John. It's clear that God the Holy Spirit can restrain Satan and all Christians suddenly leaving the earth would be a definite increase in Satan's power. This does not mean that the Holy Spirit will not then baptize and fill new Christians who believe during the Tribulation, I would hope no one would think or say that.
I've enjoyed the discussion, I think we've both made good points. I hope we can both "look for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
We appear to disagree on how eschatology influences soteriology. I don't believe that a faulty view of the end times will cause a loss of salvation. I can understand how meaningful this is to you if that's what you believe. but rest assured I'm fully assured of my salvation. To you the fact that I can be so sure may be faulty thinking on my part, I trust that "no one can pluck me out of the Father's hand, and Jesus and the Father are one."
Sometimes we need a break to remind ourselves of this truth as we need Him for all things, even discerning the message in His words.
Luke 10:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: [SUP]24 [/SUP]For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Chris Tomlin - Lord I Need You - YouTube
Luke 10:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: [SUP]24 [/SUP]For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Chris Tomlin - Lord I Need You - YouTube