Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

Look at the similarities in the Lord's "Two" Comings:

A remnant is "gathered" in both
A translation occurs in both
The Lord comes in Clouds in both
The Lord comes as a thief in both
A trumpet is blown in both, last trump vs. 7th trump
A resurrection occurs in both
Angels are present in both
There is a shout heard in both

But let's not let all these similarities stand in the way of a good fantasy.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

Daniel 7:13 NKJV

"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!

Joel 2:2 NKJV

A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.

Nahum 1:3 NKJV

The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

Zephaniah 1:15 NKJV

That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Matthew 24:30 NKJV

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 NKJV

Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14:62 NKJV

Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

1 Thessalonians 4:17 NKJV

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Since the Lord comes on a cloudy day in clouds from heaven, and we are gathered during a cloudy foggy day, could we not be gathered in the clouds without leaving the ground? Joel even describes the clouds as "clouds over a mountain" Where does the Lord return? Mount of Olives???? Since "air" means breathe and not "atmosphere air" it is very plausible that nobody is leaving the earth to meet the Lord but rather on a cloudy or foggy mountaintop.

ChosenbyHim · Nov 9, 2013

PlainWord said:

I am instructing you sir on what the Bible teaches. THe Holy Bible teaches a pre-trib. Rapture.

And yes, every true born again Christian will take part in the Rapture. The purpose of the Rapture (translation) is for the born again believer to meet the Lord in the air and to get his new glorified body (1 Thessalonians 4:17 & Philippians 3:20-21).

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Bible)

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. - Philippians 3:20-21 (King James Bible)

PlainWord said:

They have been given to you repeatedly sir. But you continue to reject the clear teachings from Scripture. We Christians were never told to look for the new world order or the antichrist.

We Christians were told to look for the Lord (Phil. 3:20). We are to love the Lord's appearing (2 Tim. 4:8).

Also, right after the Rapture, we all will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:9-15, 2 Cor. 5:10, Rom. 14:10) that way we may give account of our lives and how we served the Lord. And to receive a reward or to suffer loss of reward. And that includes the possibility of losing part of an inheritance in the Millennial Kingdom (Luke 19:12-28):

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem. - Luke 19:12-28 (King James Bible)

PlainWord said:

Plain, Christians are tested every day. There are plenty of Christians who have had to go through some tests, trials, and tribulations. That is happening right now all over the world as we speak. Listen Plain, no matter how bad you want to fight against the antichirst and the new world order and show how tough you are, it does not matter. If you are truly saved, then whether you like it or not, you are going up in the Rapture. And the Rapture will take place before the time of Jacob's trouble begins.

Also Plain, what do you think that this passage of Scripture is teaching:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. - Revelation 3:10-11 (King James Bible)

PlainWord said:

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, Satan will be loosed from his prison and he will go out to deceive the nations and to make war against the saints and the beloved city (Jerusalem).

The Christians test is NOT going to be the time of Jacob's trouble. The Christians' test will be the Judgment Seat of Christ.

konroh · Nov 9, 2013

Plain, I do enjoy this discussion, I realize we probably won't change each other's minds, but we can sharpen each other's swords I hope.

My interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:1 is that it actually refers to the Rapture. In 1 Thess. we have the Rapture then the Day of the Lord (which I understand as the Tribulation period and encompassing the Millenial period of blessing). But the Thessalonians saw so much persecution on themselves they wondered about missing the Rapture and being in the Day of the Lord's judgment. Paul clears up this fallacy by giving explicit details about the man of sin being revealed, after the restrainer is removed (Rapture of Holy Spirit saints). But this man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of Jesus coming. I recognize that I see two comings in the passage, Rapture (gathering) and Coming (destroying of Antichrist). So now I'll deal with the similarities mentioned.

Agree that a remnant of Christians is gathered at the Rapture, the remnant gathered at the 2nd coming is what is left after all the enemies have been destroyed, so they aren't a remnant, they're the only ones around.

Agree that all Christians are translated at the Rapture, and it seems the OT saints are translated at the end of the Tribulation (Dan. 12:2) but the Christians who remain at the end of the Trib, including Jewish Christians, are not translated, they enter the millenium alive. Those who die during the Trib get translated, they reign with Christ as a reward for enduring persecution. The enemies of Christ who are taken away in judgment are translated, but they aren't resurrected. "Two men standing together, one is taken, one is left."

Agree but the Rapture speaks of us meeting Him in the clouds whereas the 2nd coming has everyone seeing Him coming in the clouds.

The exact nature of this illustration evokes the idea of surprise, but Jesus seems more to be saying that it's impending and inevitable, since it's always used with the idea of being watchful. Jesus says, "I am coming like a thief" meaning expect the unexpected, be always watchful. Of course the Rapture is a surprising event, but the 2nd coming is preceded by many signs, it's not surprising so much as inevitable.

I've already mentioned why these trumpets aren't necessarily correlative, the trumpet call is a decisive gathering call. The problem is that the 7 trumpets of Rev. are not gathering calls, they are woes of judgment. It's also a problem to say that Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet since it is in the middle of the Tribulation, and you seem to be arguing for a post-Trib 2nd coming.

To me resurrection and translation are not directly the same, see above.

The Rapture has the voice of the archangel and possibly Jesus coming with angels, but to me this pictures more the 2nd coming when angels gather the saints and also deal out judgment.

Actually, I think the shout is only at the Rapture. We have a trumpet call and the voice of the archangel, it's actually unclear if this is Jesus shouting like the archangel, or if this is Michael. The Greek word for shout κελεύσματι (keleusmati) only occurs here! Really, check it out!

So let's not let all these differences stand in the way of rightly dividing the truth.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

2 Thes 2:1-2 is one sentence. Verses 1-5 is one paragraph, or one thought. Paul is not discussing 2 separate returns in one paragraph without distinguishing being made between the two. Paul would get an F in Greek or English if he wrote like that.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

That's what makes them a remnant, the fact that they are the only ones around. That's what being a remnant means. There isn't a remnant prior to anything bad happening.

[h=2]rem·nant[/h] [rem-nuh

nt] Show IPA
noun 1. a remaining, usually small part, quantity, number, or the like.

2. a fragment or scrap.

3. a small, unsold or unused piece of cloth, lace, etc., as at the end of a bolt.

4. a trace; vestige: remnants of former greatness.

adjective 5. remaining; leftover.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

Don't be confused between "translated" and "resurrected." OT saints are dead, hence they will be resurrected. The Christians who remain are the remnant, they are translated. Since the Lord only returns once, this happens AFTER the Tribulation.

You have two groups that die during the Trib, the Great Multitude who are slaughtered, slayed by God for coming out after the Antichrist and being deceived and you have the Saints who were martyred. The martyred saints are resurrected, not translated, when the Lord returns and they live and reign with Christ 1,000 years.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"

A loud voice and shout are the same thing.

[h=2]shout[/h] [shout] Show IPA
verb (used without object) 1. to call or cry out loudly and vigorously.

2. to speak or laugh noisily or unrestrainedly.

verb (used with object) 3. to utter or yell (something) loudly.

4. Australian. to treat (another) to a drink, meal, amusement, or the like.

noun 5. a loud call or cry: He gave a shout for help.

6. a sudden loud outburst, as of laughter.

7. the act of calling or crying out loudly.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

No, we are gathered and meet in the clouds in both (except there is only 1 return)

Mat 24:

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Everything I stated is true. "Both" events are the same. The descriptions are the same. The Clouds aren't a white puffy cloud that we go to, we meet on a cloudy or foggy mountaintop like it says in Joel 2. The Lord returns to the Mount of Olives or Mount Zion and that is where we are gathered. The two mountains are right next to each other, just a short walk away.

There is one event, one return. You don't have one in secret and one in the open.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

I agree, but you won't be using your sword because you plan to fly away, LOL.

. I hope you have a safe trip.

LT · Nov 9, 2013

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. - Revelation 3:10-11 (King James Bible)

this verse is talking to one specific church, one specific people group. If you interpret it at all literally, then this does not suggest a pre-trib rapture, not at all. It says that a specific group of saved people will be "kept from" the tribulation. That doesn't imply rapture at all.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 proves rapture/resurrection, but not pre-trib. Those which are alive and remain are caught up after the resurrection of the dead. Where does the Resurrection take place? Rev 20:5 talks about the 1st Resurrection. It occurs after the return of Christ at Armageddon.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 speaks of the Resurrection, not rapture. Note that it says at the "last trump", not "before the 1st trump". This will not happen before the tribulation, but after. Also note that a trumpet is a battle call.

When does Christ fulfill his claim to come as a thief in the night? Rev 16:15 which is at the Battle of Armageddon.

The literal interpretation of the Bible displays a post-trib rapture. The 2nd coming of Christ is imminent, not the rapture.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

I hope whoever does the shouting doesn't shout too loud or people might here and it won't be a secret rapture anymore like Chosen claims it is.

PlainWord · Nov 9, 2013

LT said:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. - Revelation 3:10-11 (King James Bible)

this verse is talking to one specific church, one specific people group. If you interpret it at all literally, then this does not suggest a pre-trib rapture, not at all. It says that a specific group of saved people will be "kept from" the tribulation. That doesn't imply rapture at all.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 proves rapture/resurrection, but not pre-trib. Those which are alive and remain are caught up after the resurrection of the dead. Where does the Resurrection take place? Rev 20:5 talks about the 1st Resurrection. It occurs after the return of Christ at Armageddon.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 speaks of the Resurrection, not rapture. Note that it says at the "last trump", not "before the 1st trump". This will not happen before the tribulation, but after. Also note that a trumpet is a battle call.

When does Christ fulfill his claim to come as a thief in the night? Rev 16:15 which is at the Battle of Armageddon.

The literal interpretation of the Bible displays a post-trib rapture. The 2nd coming of Christ is imminent, not the rapture.

Excellent points all around. It is so obvious, a child could see it.

LT · Nov 9, 2013

LT said:

I meant to say "at the return", not "after the return".

konroh · Nov 9, 2013

I agree 2 Thess 2:1-5 is one paragraph, but the 2nd coming is not mentioned until the 2nd paragraph in v.9. I recognize that Paul never says the "comings" of the Lord, my interpretation of 2 Thess 2 stems from Paul building on what he's already said in 1 Thess. 4, and having to clarify that doctrine. The Thessalonians thought they'd missed the Rapture and were in the day of the Lord, Paul says no, the man of lawlessness must come first before the Day of the Lord. 1 Thess. 4 is a pivotal passage, much the way Rev. 20 is for millenial interpretation. We both take Rev. 20 as 1000 real years, unlike many of our Christian brethren, and I think 1 Thess. 4 needs to be seen the same way. When Paul says in 1 Thess. 4:15 "We say this by a revelation from the Lord" he's being emphatic, he's revealing something new and unexpected. Paul never uses this exact phrase again in any of his letters, though of course the idea that all his epistles are a revelation from the Lord is implicit.

Thanks for the clarification on translation and resurrection, the problem of course is that the post-trib position has everyone either destroyed or resurrected. Those saints who are resurrected will reign on earth but they won't be physically having children since the resurrection is like the angels who do not marry. The angels who went against this have already been judged and are in hell. If one wants to have saints in resurrection bodies having children on earth, then there is a misunderstanding of just what it means to be resurrected.

Joel 2: 2A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.

The day of the Lord is dark and cloudy. Then it's the people who are compared to the dawn spreading on the mountains, dawn spreads on the mountains pervasively, extensively, and without relent, so will be this people. This verse does not talk about the 2nd coming. The clouds refers to the day of the Lord, the dawn on the mountains refers to the people. You are mixing Hebraic metaphors, your argument is weak here.

Do you also see that you mixed your verses about the "shout of the archangel". You quoted from the passage talking about the 7th bowl--but it's the 7th trumpet where you say the Lord comes. First you've mixed your metaphors, now you've mixed your shouts!

Peace.

konroh · Nov 9, 2013

The problem is that each one of the messages given to the seven churches is for all the churches of God. Notice after every message is says, 6‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ So each message has meaning to all the churches. It's not talking to one specific church! These churches are representative of all churches throughout the church age, and in this light the message is even more powerful. The Church has persevered and endured for 2000 years, so Christ will "keep them from the very hour of tribulation" which will come on the whole world. Why would it even say this is a tribulation for the whole world if it's just one church referred to?

Rev. calls everyone blessed who has a part in the first resurrection. This is in contrast to the last resurrection that is mentioned in the same chapter, the resurrection of Death and Hades and all those dead in the Sea. This is a cursed resurrection, all these are not blessed like those who're blessed in the first resurrection. If you're a part of the first resurrection, then the second death has no power over you, if you're a part of the 2nd resurrection, you've not only died once, now you die twice. The first has reference to the immediate context of the chapter. Those who're Raptured before the tribulation and those resurrected at the end will all share in the first resurrection.

I've replied to this trumpet theory so many times but here it is again. We see here the point about resurrection, the dead in Christ, those who have fallen asleep, will get their resurrection bodies first, they will not miss out. This is not a secret rapture because there is a shout, the archangel's voice and the trumpet of God. It will be a worldwide, climactic event. The announcement that it's a trumpet doesn't associate it with the 7th trumpet in Rev. in my opinion. A trumpet call is a universal symbol of gathering, the Israelites had it, both as a community and as a military. I do associate it with 1 Cor. 15 where it says, at the last trump, for the trumpet will sound. But notice that if this was an association with the 7 trumpets of Rev. then Paul should have said, "At the last trumpet, for the trumpets will sound, with the idea that there is more than one. Paul's use of last trumpet is like saying, "at the final call" This correlates with the Greek word eschate, last, which is a general term.

The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, the 2nd coming will come like a
thief. The point is that you better be prepared and ready for it, keep your clothes on. But notice that Paul says in 1 Thess. 5:4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We live in light. Some Christians will be Raptured, tribulation saints will look for the signs and the 2nd coming will not be unexpected, but it will be devastating, like a thief in the night.

The 2nd coming is impossible to be described as imminent if there is a 7 year tribulation with all the events that have been so thoroughly detailed. Most post-trib recognize this. The only true doctrine that says that Christ could return today is the pre-trib Rapture, and Amillenialists who don't believe in a tribulation. And also all the early church fathers.

LT · Nov 10, 2013

konroh said:

You are using human logic to redefine the prophecy, then saying you have a literal interpretation?!
If God wants to make more humans for the millennium, he can make them (Matt. 3:9). You can't base your pre-trib view on there being no survivors to populate the millennial kingdom.

LT · Nov 10, 2013

konroh said:

You have made far too many assumptions for me to fully refute all of this in a single post.
You have made assumptions about the 70th week of Daniel being relative to the Great Tribulation, and using this to claim that the Great Tribulation will be 7 years long. You then say that the 2nd coming will be predictable because of this.
I am post-trib, and have a literal view of Scripture, and I also believe in an imminent 2nd coming.
It seems clear to me that you deny an imminent 2nd coming, by placing a barrier in the way.
Also, amillenialists don't believe in a literal millennium, but they can believe in a literal tribulation.

What is this verse referring to?
(Authorized KJV) Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Is it talking about the imminent rapture, or an imminent judgement?

Kerry · Nov 10, 2013

I will tell you exactly what triggers it. The Father looks to His right and tells Jesus to go get em. That the trigger point.

PlainWord · Nov 10, 2013

The Chapters and verses are not divinely inspired. They were added by the original translators. Paul wrote 2 letters to the Thessalonians just as you or I would write a letter. If you want proof that what you say about 2 Thes 2:1 is wrong, simply look back to the first chapter. It is all about the Second Coming. Put it all together as it is written and it leaves no doubt. See how it flows and all goes together?

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,
because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 11: What will trigger the rapture?

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

LT

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

LT

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

LT

Guest

LT

Guest

Kerry

Guest

Senior Member