Rapture= false teaching

bygrace · Nov 14, 2009

BLC said:

watchmen,

Why would Jesus Christ as the head of His body, the church, that has redeemed and purchased us with His blood, subject us to the wrath to come? If God's salvation does not include keeping us from His wrath, then it would be incomplete. In (1Thes 1:10) Jesus has delivered us from the wrath to come. The wrath to come is in (Rev 6). Those in (Eph 5:1-5) are the children of diobedience that the wrath of God will come upon. In (Eph 1:8) the verb 'were' is in the imperfect tense and indicative mood, referring to a fact that occured in the past as an emphatic position. We were in darkness now we are light, so walk as children of light. Also in (Col 1:13) we have been 'delivered' and 'translated' from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son. The verb 'delivered' means; to be removed and 'translated' means; to take or transfer from one position to another. We have been taken out of the power and kingdom of darkness and removed to a new location, which is into the light and the kingdom of God's dear Son. How could God subject us to His wrath when our location is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). So, we are no longer subject to the wrath and judgment of those that remain in and under the power of darkness as children of disobedience, because we have been removed from it. Those, who may be backslidden at the time when Christ comes back to take us up before the great tribulation, will go up also because they have the righteousness of God.

Someone gave this great OT illustration. Before God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his family were removed before the fire came down from heaven. The interesting thing about this was when Abraham pleaded with God and made this statement in (Gen 18:23), 'Will thou destroy the righteous with the wicked'? God made sure when He sent His angels that they were removed. Lot was a righteous and just man, but lived in Sodom as a very backslidden man who was vexed by the filthy conversation of the wicked (2Pt 2:7). After the cities were destroyed he allowed his daughters to get him drunk on two separate occasions, not knowing their plan to lay with Him to preserve their father's seed (Gen 19). They each bore a son that produced the Moabites and the Ammonites, who became hostile to Israel or Isaac, which was Abraham's seed.

The vital question the end-time student should ask in regards to the Lord equating the day of His return to the day Noah was rescued from the sin and evil of his day and Lot was rescued from Sodom in his day is: what happened to those left behind in these two ancient judgments? Did they suffer a period of tribulation or did they suffer total and immediate destruction? Because Luke 17:30 tells us: “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

watchmen · Nov 14, 2009

bygrace said:

Definition_Christ said:

The great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath is poured out at the end of the Tribulation as Christ is returning. Which is what bygrace was trying to explain to you.

bygrace · Nov 14, 2009

watchmen said:

Thanks for your welcome.

But there must be believers subjected to this wrath if they are going to populate what I assume you believe is a millennial earth. They will have to go through the wrath of God unless you believer there is a second rapture?

watchmen · Nov 14, 2009

bygrace said:

Exactly...you got it!!! We are removed right before Christ returns to totally destroy the wicked at the end of the Tribulation just as Luke 17:26-30 clearly states.

MahogonySnail · Nov 14, 2009

Then you're a mid-tribulationist watchmen.

From what I've read I do think it's the most historical point of view.

Definition_Christ · Nov 14, 2009

Snail this is going to go on all nigh with these long annoying philosophical posts. I agree you interpret Scripture just fine. I mean as long as you're not claiming Yeshua's death was symbolic. The thing is with Moses,he was not making and End Time prophecy as I showed you in John 8.. But anyway we don't need to argue over that. No one will know the coming of the Lord. So either of us could be right. Unless you are saying "die hard" the Lord is coming after tribulation.. That is kind of.. Well... Knowing the day and hour? You would know His return you just simply wait until the first trumpet goes off and count down 7 years from there, than you have it calculated the coming of the Lord. But that would be you knowing the day and hour of the coming of the Lord. Anyway.. I agree I could be wrong however I don't in anyway agree with post trib because it has no Scriptural evidence and has other biblical evidence against it. Kind of like Calvinism and Arminianism you could "prove" them both with Scripture but they can't both be true? .. I think they are clearly contradicting each other yet they can both make sound doctrines from the Bible. I guess that is the same with pre-post trib.

watchmen · Nov 14, 2009

bygrace said:

I agree with you. However the explanation would probably be more than most of these can take especially in a pre trib vs post trib debate, but there will be some all or mostly Jewish that realize Jesus is Messiah as He is returning when they see Him split the sky that will miss the rapture but repent before the fire fall and be spared through the wrath. This are they that populate the millennium in their mortal bodies. There is not but one rapture. We might want to start a new thread to get deep into this discussion.

watchmen · Nov 14, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

No I am a post tribulationalist, and the historical view is that of a post trib rapture.

MahogonySnail · Nov 14, 2009

So the destroying of the wicked does that occur before or after the end of the tribulation period? Isn't the destruction of the wicked part of the tribulation and therefore it would be mid-tribulation, or near-end tribulation?

watchmen · Nov 14, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Well you could argue that it is just before the end of the Tribulation, but that would be the pre-wrath view, not the mid trib view. however according to scripture Jesus returns to destroy the wicked immediately after the Tribulation. It is my understanding that the tribulation actualy end bwith the return of Christ at which point He first resurrects the just, catches away the living saints, restors the Jews who repents, and then destroys the wicked with fire. the tribulation ends when Christ splits the sky so as scriptures says the ''rapture'' would be immediately after the Tribulation, and i mean immediately as soon as it ends.

MahogonySnail · Nov 14, 2009

Yeah, good points. I agree that all the rapture views are probably not found in the early church or the bible explicitly. The notion of rapture itself is being caught up in the air and the more traditional view is to call that a resurrection. Just look at what Catholics believe and that will give some idea of the more traditional christian view.

Regarding Jesus's death being symbolic - well only if it was revealed in a vision or dream, and not known to actually happen , might it be symbolic.

By the way the 7 years figure is also probably symbolic, the number 7 , occurs in many places in the scripture, and multiples of it, like 49. It symbolises perfection, or is that completion, I forget. They are not chronological years necessarily but prophetic years. The whole period of tribulation could be 8 years or 9 years or 10 years, or 5 years, in our 365/6 day/year calender - so, for that reason we don't really know when Christ returns even if it is post-trib.

STEPHAN · Nov 14, 2009

Those that are prepared have the Holy Spirit and will stay continuely ready prepared that same Spirit is the only vehicle in which is to take us to Our Father "Rapture"
When the spirit is taken it will be as time's never before on earth
Pray with a sincere heart and mind "Sincere" As Paul was once Saul - Sincere God believe me is working harder then you are I
Ask and it shall be given My Father is awesome to put it lightly He is Love.
Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

“ And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.

MahogonySnail · Nov 14, 2009

Well you could argue that it is just before the end of the Tribulation, but that would be the pre-wrath view, not the mid trib view. however according to scripture Jesus returns to destroy the wicked immediately after the Tribulation. It is my understanding that the tribulation actualy end bwith the return of Christ at which point He first resurrects the just, catches away the living saints, restors the Jews who repents, and then destroys the wicked with fire. the tribulation ends when Christ splits the sky so as scriptures says the ''rapture'' would be immediately after the Tribulation, and i mean immediately as soon as it ends.

Ahh, that makes sense. But , what do I care, I guess I'm partial-pterist with post-tribulational tendences.

.

Definition_Christ · Nov 14, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

So what do you make of
Revelation 13:5
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

Forty two months is 3 and a half years.. So the anti Christ only has authority for 3 and a half years.. What is symbolic about that?

MahogonySnail · Nov 14, 2009

3 and a half is half of 7. The mid point of the period of completeness. Also very symbolic.

watchmen · Nov 14, 2009

this is a false statement, there is biblical evidence for a post trib rapture.
#1 The Bible tells us that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 The bible tells us the resurrection of the just which occurs before the rapture as well as the catching away of the saints which is what people call the rapture is at the coming of Christ which via point #1 is after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
At the coming of Christ THEN shall two be in the field one taken the other left

1st Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Christ was the first to be raised the next people who will be raised are the righteous at the coming of Christ which occurs before the rapture.

1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This plainly state in no uncertain terms that the rapture is at the coming of Christ which we know to be after the tribulation.

2nd Thess 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
This passage tells us tow things occur on the same day #1 the coming of Christ and #2 the gathering od the saint which includes the resurrection of the just and the rapture.

There is no question that the statement made by Definition Christ that there is no scriptural evidence for the post trib rapture is absolutely FALSE.

He also made this statement...

Which is true no one knows the day or hour, but in that same passage where Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His return, He also tell us it will be immediately after the Tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So for someone to claim Jesus' return cannot be after the Tribulation or else we will know the day or hour has obviously not correctly discerned the words of Christ. After all it is the same Jesus that tells us that it will both be after the Tribulation, and that knows the day or hour. You cannot choose to believe one thing Jesus said and use that to exclude the other as even being possible.

Definition_Christ · Nov 14, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Okay but what is symbolic about it. And if 42 months doesn't mean 42 months what does it mean? Your whole theory of symbolism sounded respectable at first but now it just sounds weird. I mean seeing how you have absolutely no biblical evidence to prove that anything of this is symbolic in any sort I am just curious it is why you believe this.

Definition_Christ · Nov 14, 2009

Seeing how nothing you said actually proved the rapture doesn't take place before the tribulation no need to comment on those verses. But for this..

What you don't understand here is you just agreed it's true that no one knows the day or the hour. Than you go on to say "but..." Jesus doesn't tell us anything about the rapture being after the tribulation. What you are missing is this...
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds.

See my point is.. The Church is going to BE in HEAVEN with Yeshua .. That is where He is going to gather His elect.. That is why the verse doesn't stop there..

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Gather His elect from the four winds, from WHERE??? From one end of HEAVEN to the OTHER... The elect is not going to be on Earth. Thank you for confirming that for me.

Marcus2x2 · Nov 14, 2009

watchmen said:

What I was pointing out was the poor application of your logic and your poor application of the Scriptures.

Marcus2x2 · Nov 14, 2009

watchmen said:

Also, I am not a post tribber. I'm a pre tribber.

Rapture= false teaching

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