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So how do you interpret Matthew 24:31 since you love to quote Matthew 24 so much..
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Where is the elect going to be gathered from? Earth (post trib)? Or Heaven..? Remember this is talking about what happens AFTER the tribulation.. So when Jesus gathers the elect they will already BE in heaven because they were raptured UP there.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Where is the elect going to be gathered from? Earth (post trib)? Or Heaven..? Remember this is talking about what happens AFTER the tribulation.. So when Jesus gathers the elect they will already BE in heaven because they were raptured UP there.
Good try, but it was an amateur's attempt. You see that Gathering of the elect is from Heaven ''the dead at the resurrection'', and the earth ''those that are alive and remain'', an this occurs at the post trib return of Christ just as scipture says.
Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When you try to twist scripture to fit you belief instead of twisting your beliefs to fit scripture you always loose. The Bible tells us the dead and the living are gather from Heaven and earth at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When you try to twist scripture to fit you belief instead of twisting your beliefs to fit scripture you always loose. The Bible tells us the dead and the living are gather from Heaven and earth at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
See the above post for the full explanation of that verse inlight of what else scripture tells us but those that are gathered from Heaven are the dead in Christ returning with Christ from Heaven to receive their new immortal Heavenly bodies at the resurrection of the just per 1st Thess 4:14.
1st Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1st Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Why is 7 years not necessarily 7 years?
Well, for a start this is the bible's calender was it hebrew? so the days aren't quite the same as our calender, but the difference is not that great, so we can ignore this error.
The best reason I believe these are all in prophetic years and not literal is because with the events prophesied which have already taken place, as revealed in Daniel - the chronological years have differed from the prophesied years by a couple of decades or something like that, I forget. It doesn't matter, because all prophecy is about symbolism and prediction. We also have to understand the nature of biblical prophecy - that prophecy is not about predicting the future with a crystal ball precisely to within 5 seconds of the event actually taking place - that's what fortune tellers are for. For example, the Jews had all the prophecies in the world predicting the coming of Christ - but many still missed His coming. Their dogmatisim and rigid interpretations of prophecies that Jesus must come from Bethlehem was the main reason they did not accept that Christ was who He said He was. Of course they didn't factor in that Christ's hometown might be Nazareth. Their presumptions and rigid interpretation of the scriptures played a role in them rejecting Christ.
The point is Christ doesn't have to come back at exactly the last day of the 7th year in our 365 day calender because the bible says "7 years" - it's that the number 7 is symbolic and represents completion that is important. It could be 5, it could be 9, it could be 10 years, so , it is correct to say that no one knows the day or hour or year, in chronological terms. You typically find round symbolic numbers in the scriptures, like 40, 7, 3, 12 and multiples of these. That's why you never see a number like 34.5834 years - because the scripture does not give accurate chronological figures in the prophecies, nor does it have to, nor should we assume that they are.
So, my evidence that it is symbolic is mainly because the historical record has differed from the prophesied and all attempts to reconcile the two have failed. That is not my own idea however, I have consulted the contemporary writings of experts in eschatology and what methods they use, and that's all I present here.
That human beings will live no longer than 70 or 80 or 100 years , as scripture says, is another example of numbers in the bible not being precise. Obviously some people live more than 100 sometimes, 104, or 110, whatever.
I'm not saying it could not be 7 years, i'm saying it doesn't have to be 7 years. The number 7 is symbolic, as is 3.5 exactly half of 7, so, don't be surprised or claim the bible is wrong if it isn't exactly 7 years, as past historical fulfillment of prophecies have shown. You might miss the tribulation period, like the Jews missed Christ because he didnt come from Bethlehem as they thought he should. What will you do, 9 years into the tribulation period say, "gee, it's been 2 years over 7, this must not be the tribulation". ? As with all symbolism - it's not the time scale that's so important it's what it means that's important. In that regard it doesn't matter if the anti christ reigns for only 4 years and the whole tribulation period goes for 10. THe point is that a) christians endure the tribulation faithfully and to prepare for such events, and b) that this is a remarkable and wonderful event for the church which is to be, as the number 7 symbolises - the completion of all things - end game.
Well, for a start this is the bible's calender was it hebrew? so the days aren't quite the same as our calender, but the difference is not that great, so we can ignore this error.
The best reason I believe these are all in prophetic years and not literal is because with the events prophesied which have already taken place, as revealed in Daniel - the chronological years have differed from the prophesied years by a couple of decades or something like that, I forget. It doesn't matter, because all prophecy is about symbolism and prediction. We also have to understand the nature of biblical prophecy - that prophecy is not about predicting the future with a crystal ball precisely to within 5 seconds of the event actually taking place - that's what fortune tellers are for. For example, the Jews had all the prophecies in the world predicting the coming of Christ - but many still missed His coming. Their dogmatisim and rigid interpretations of prophecies that Jesus must come from Bethlehem was the main reason they did not accept that Christ was who He said He was. Of course they didn't factor in that Christ's hometown might be Nazareth. Their presumptions and rigid interpretation of the scriptures played a role in them rejecting Christ.
The point is Christ doesn't have to come back at exactly the last day of the 7th year in our 365 day calender because the bible says "7 years" - it's that the number 7 is symbolic and represents completion that is important. It could be 5, it could be 9, it could be 10 years, so , it is correct to say that no one knows the day or hour or year, in chronological terms. You typically find round symbolic numbers in the scriptures, like 40, 7, 3, 12 and multiples of these. That's why you never see a number like 34.5834 years - because the scripture does not give accurate chronological figures in the prophecies, nor does it have to, nor should we assume that they are.
So, my evidence that it is symbolic is mainly because the historical record has differed from the prophesied and all attempts to reconcile the two have failed. That is not my own idea however, I have consulted the contemporary writings of experts in eschatology and what methods they use, and that's all I present here.
That human beings will live no longer than 70 or 80 or 100 years , as scripture says, is another example of numbers in the bible not being precise. Obviously some people live more than 100 sometimes, 104, or 110, whatever.
I'm not saying it could not be 7 years, i'm saying it doesn't have to be 7 years. The number 7 is symbolic, as is 3.5 exactly half of 7, so, don't be surprised or claim the bible is wrong if it isn't exactly 7 years, as past historical fulfillment of prophecies have shown. You might miss the tribulation period, like the Jews missed Christ because he didnt come from Bethlehem as they thought he should. What will you do, 9 years into the tribulation period say, "gee, it's been 2 years over 7, this must not be the tribulation". ? As with all symbolism - it's not the time scale that's so important it's what it means that's important. In that regard it doesn't matter if the anti christ reigns for only 4 years and the whole tribulation period goes for 10. THe point is that a) christians endure the tribulation faithfully and to prepare for such events, and b) that this is a remarkable and wonderful event for the church which is to be, as the number 7 symbolises - the completion of all things - end game.
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Yes and it also say from earth. the dead in Christ are in Heaven right now, and when Christ returns after the tribulation He brings the righteous dead with Him from Heaven to receive their Heavenly bodies, and then the living are gathered from earth to receive their Heavenly bodies as well.
1st Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The fact that the dead in Christ are gathered from Heaven does not prove the pretrib rapture, and it certainly doesn;t disprove the post trib rapture, all it proves is that those that die in Christ go to heaven upon the deaths.
I have shown you why some are gathered from Heaven, now you tell me why ssome are gathered from earth?
1st Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The fact that the dead in Christ are gathered from Heaven does not prove the pretrib rapture, and it certainly doesn;t disprove the post trib rapture, all it proves is that those that die in Christ go to heaven upon the deaths.
I have shown you why some are gathered from Heaven, now you tell me why ssome are gathered from earth?
Well on this matter I have found it means heaven meaning sky or the expanse of the earth, not heaven where God is, now which bible commentary would you like me to quote that supports this, baptist, presbyterian, Wesley, Catholic ? which would you prefer I quote?
Let's go with presbyterian this time, Albert Barnes:
From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Eze_37:9. See also Isa_43:5-6. "From one end of heaven, etc." Mark says Mar_13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word "heaven" is used here to denote the "visible" heavens or the sky, meaning that through "the whole world" he would gather them. See Psa_19:1-7; Deu_4:32.
Let's go with presbyterian this time, Albert Barnes:
From the four winds - That is, from the four quarters of the globe - east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them See Eze_37:9. See also Isa_43:5-6. "From one end of heaven, etc." Mark says Mar_13:27, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered. The word "heaven" is used here to denote the "visible" heavens or the sky, meaning that through "the whole world" he would gather them. See Psa_19:1-7; Deu_4:32.
Like bygrace said you refuse to address my point.
#1 Do you think Christians go to heaven when they die.
#2 Who are those being gathered from earth, and why are they not already in heave via the pretrib rapture?
#3 If christian do go to Heaven when they die then the fact that there are believers in Heaven at the return of Christ doesn't prove the pretrib rapture, matter of fact there are believers in Heaven right now.
Like I, and bygrace have both stated 1st Thess 4 supports the fact that the dead return from Heaven with Jesus at His return and the the living are gathered from Earth.
#1 Do you think Christians go to heaven when they die.
#2 Who are those being gathered from earth, and why are they not already in heave via the pretrib rapture?
#3 If christian do go to Heaven when they die then the fact that there are believers in Heaven at the return of Christ doesn't prove the pretrib rapture, matter of fact there are believers in Heaven right now.
Like I, and bygrace have both stated 1st Thess 4 supports the fact that the dead return from Heaven with Jesus at His return and the the living are gathered from Earth.
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Actually it means exactly what it says the elect will be gathered from Heaven and from earth at the return of Christ the dead are gathered from Heaven , and the living from earth Just as 1st Thess 4 says.
1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.