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H
If we live our lives as stated in the Bible then we don't have to worry about rapture. I don't believe God will come until the judgment day. If we follow God and do His will then we will go to Heaven if not then we will go to eternal ****ation. We will be caught up in the air with God on judgment day. 
B
That is right but the context and the detail of the text make it clear it is actually talking about heaven – the place where the redeemed abide. All humanity that ever lived are either found on earth if they are alive or in heaven or hell.
The elect – the redeemed – are either on earth or in heaven now. When Jesus comes He will unite both. The wicked on the other hand are either on earth or in hell now.
Philippians 2:9-11 says,“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven (epouranios), and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell.
Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying,“And no man in heaven (ouranos), nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”
Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the elect can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven (ouranos) and earth is named.”
Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.
When Jesus comes He gathers His elect from one of two locations earth or heaven. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31,of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven (ouranos) to the other.” Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (ouranos).”
The elect – the redeemed – are either on earth or in heaven now. When Jesus comes He will unite both. The wicked on the other hand are either on earth or in hell now.
Philippians 2:9-11 says,“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven (epouranios), and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell.
Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying,“And no man in heaven (ouranos), nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”
Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the elect can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven (ouranos) and earth is named.”
Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.
When Jesus comes He gathers His elect from one of two locations earth or heaven. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31,of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven (ouranos) to the other.” Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (ouranos).”
B
I am sure you would agree. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [or episunagoge Strong’s 1997] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”
Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”
We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The Coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final Coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.
Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”
We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The Coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final Coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.
B
But 40 million believers dying for their faith in the middle ages is pretty bad. According to evangelical sources, 120,000 believers a yr are losing their life today. That is not insignificant. Why is there such a desperation to avoid tribulation by the modern church?
Where does it even say that there is going to be an end-time 7yrs trib? I can't find it.
Where does it even say that there is going to be an end-time 7yrs trib? I can't find it.
G
If we live our lives as stated in the Bible then we don't have to worry about rapture. I don't believe God will come until the judgment day. If we follow God and do His will then we will go to Heaven if not then we will go to eternal ****ation. We will be caught up in the air with God on judgment day.
One early church father thought we would be caught up and hover in the air for 45 days while Christ remakes the earth.
That may be what Snail believes. You know how he reveres ealy church writings.
I revere the early church writings from before 100AD
S
What is with some believers that don't understand that the great tribulation has nothing to do with any form of tribulation that believers have experienced in the last 2000 years during the dispensation of the church age. There is no comparison.
Mt 24:21,22 'For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.'
The church and bride of Christ does not have to avoid the tribulation because they will not be a part of it. The wrath of God has been removed / John 3:36. The believer has been justified by the blood of Christ and saved from wrath through Him / Rom 5:9. We were by nature the children of wrath as others are / Eph 2:3. But now we wait for His Son, who was raised from the dead, which delivered us from the wrath to come / 1Thes 1:10. For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ / 1Thes 5:9.
Mt 24:21,22 'For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.'
The church and bride of Christ does not have to avoid the tribulation because they will not be a part of it. The wrath of God has been removed / John 3:36. The believer has been justified by the blood of Christ and saved from wrath through Him / Rom 5:9. We were by nature the children of wrath as others are / Eph 2:3. But now we wait for His Son, who was raised from the dead, which delivered us from the wrath to come / 1Thes 1:10. For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ / 1Thes 5:9.
B
But the wrath of God at the end is not synonymous with a 7yr trib. To allege that you need to prove that. From what I can see from my biblical studies, It is the total and immediate destruction of the wicked when Christ appears. There is no room for a 7yr trib.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remainshall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The wrath of God spoken about here is spoken of in regard to the sudden destruction that accompanies the day of the Lord. This of course relates to the time when He next appears. This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. As I have previously highlighted, 1 Thess 4:14 describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. 1 Thess 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remainshall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The wrath of God spoken about here is spoken of in regard to the sudden destruction that accompanies the day of the Lord. This of course relates to the time when He next appears. This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. As I have previously highlighted, 1 Thess 4:14 describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. 1 Thess 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
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You are exaclty right bygrace, and i encourage you to continue teaching truth. However I would also like to make you aware of the fact that most pretribbers you talk to have alrweady closed the ears to anything you might say, but stand strong in the truth and keep proclaiming God's word, just know most will ignore it.
Actually I'd say it is not that clear. Why would God need to send angels out of heaven to gather the elect in heaven when they are already in heaven?
The MKJV bible and others doesn't render it with a capital H, and about four different bible commentaries I have consulted, from both baptist and presbyterian and other types of theologians, all say it is meaning the sky of the earth , not the Heaven where God lives. But if you can find some bible commentaries or theologians which say differently please quote them.
The irony is, when someone says that they only revere the bible or the canon - is that many of those who wrote early church writings contributed to determining what constituted the canon of scripture. I also find it ironic that people can think that christianity fell into delusion as soon as 100, or even 200 years from Christ, when they are quite happy to believe and in fact adamant that doctrine has remained sound for the past 500 years since the protestant reformation (but as Watchmen and others know, we have a number of errors such as the pre trib rapture and osas). I know Watchmen probably puts it at 200 years because he doesn't believe in the Trinity, I'd put it a bit later than that, more like 600-700 AD, but it's not the time period that determines whether something is reliable or not, it is the author. If no writings post 100 years AD were reliable, then I guess our christian book stores and our book shelves at home would be empty. If you claim to use the bible alone, and reject early christian writings, yet have and read at least one christian book on your shelf written by a christian author from the past 50 years I'd say you're a hypocrite.
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