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Well that is what scripture says.
1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Their souls go to Heaven when they die, while their bodies decay into dust, but at Christ return their souls return with Him, their bodies are made new. As their souls descend with Christ their new immortal heavenly bodies rise, they are joined together in the air. Then living are changed into immortal heavenly bodies as well, and are caught up to meet the resurrected just, and Christ in the air.
1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Their souls go to Heaven when they die, while their bodies decay into dust, but at Christ return their souls return with Him, their bodies are made new. As their souls descend with Christ their new immortal heavenly bodies rise, they are joined together in the air. Then living are changed into immortal heavenly bodies as well, and are caught up to meet the resurrected just, and Christ in the air.
B
The angels gather the complete company of redeemed (in heaven and on earth) for that great all-consummating union in the sky. Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:27, 1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 all describe that final gathering. As we fit the climactic detail together we see an undoubted correlation. Christ is clearly Coming "with" and "for" His saints in all these references. You must agree, the elect are either on earth or in heaven today? They must therefore be suitably united in the sky at that great day of glorification for the sum total of the redeemed.
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B
Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
(1) There is no mention of the Church here, (2) accordingly there is no mention of a rapture of the Church here, (3) there is no mention of a 7 years trib. Finally, (4) there is no mention of an additional Coming of Christ.
Please note:
1 - John the apostle is speaking.
2 - John is called up to heaven.
3 - This occurred 2000 years ago.
4 - This speaks of John being caught up “in the spirit” (v.2) into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.” -- "Hereafter" speaks of things happening after John's revelations 2000 years ago.
Whatever way you look at this reading, there is absolutely nothing in the text to indicate the Pretrib belief.
(1) There is no mention of the Church here, (2) accordingly there is no mention of a rapture of the Church here, (3) there is no mention of a 7 years trib. Finally, (4) there is no mention of an additional Coming of Christ.
Please note:
1 - John the apostle is speaking.
2 - John is called up to heaven.
3 - This occurred 2000 years ago.
4 - This speaks of John being caught up “in the spirit” (v.2) into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.” -- "Hereafter" speaks of things happening after John's revelations 2000 years ago.
Whatever way you look at this reading, there is absolutely nothing in the text to indicate the Pretrib belief.
I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture nor two comings of Christ - just one coming of Christ.
The 7 years of the tribulation period comes from:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
One week here is a period of 7 years. In the middle of the week i.e at 3.5 years, starts the actual tribulation of the tribulation period. You need to read Daniel chapter 9 in particular (70 of such weeks, is 70 times 7 = 490 years), and then cross reference with Revelation.
S
hahahaha....dude its 2 different events as said in the bible
rapture-1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
second coming- Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
the rapture will take place before the tribulation
1 thess 5:9
rev 3:10
second coming will take place after the antichrist rule that is at the end of tribulation
rev chapters 6-9
in rapture, believers are removed from the earth
1 thess 4:13-17
1 thess 5:9
whereas in seocnd coming the unbelievers are removed from the earth
parable of wheat and the tares - matt 13:24-42
parable of dragnet- matt 13:47:50
days of noah- matt 24:37-41
rapture is a mystery, a hidden event
1 cor 15:50-54
second coming is seen by all, both dead and alive
rev 1:7
rapture can take place at any moment
1 cor 15:50-54
titus 2:13
1 thes 4:14-18
second coming wont happen untill certain events take place
2 thes 2:4
matt 24:15-30
rev chapters 6-18
if the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation.rev 3:10 and 1 thes 5:9
if the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return.matt 24:4-30
in describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” .jer 30:7—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel.romans 11:17-31
if you still cant understand this...may God help you!!
rapture-1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
second coming- Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
the rapture will take place before the tribulation
1 thess 5:9
rev 3:10
second coming will take place after the antichrist rule that is at the end of tribulation
rev chapters 6-9
in rapture, believers are removed from the earth
1 thess 4:13-17
1 thess 5:9
whereas in seocnd coming the unbelievers are removed from the earth
parable of wheat and the tares - matt 13:24-42
parable of dragnet- matt 13:47:50
days of noah- matt 24:37-41
rapture is a mystery, a hidden event
1 cor 15:50-54
second coming is seen by all, both dead and alive
rev 1:7
rapture can take place at any moment
1 cor 15:50-54
titus 2:13
1 thes 4:14-18
second coming wont happen untill certain events take place
2 thes 2:4
matt 24:15-30
rev chapters 6-18
if the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation.rev 3:10 and 1 thes 5:9
if the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return.matt 24:4-30
in describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” .jer 30:7—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel.romans 11:17-31
if you still cant understand this...may God help you!!
OK for the record.
Before God judged the world with Noah's flood he removed the righteous.
Before God judged sodom and Gomorrah he removed the righteous.
Before God judges the world before the Millenium he will remove the righteous.
He(the Holy Spirirt) who Lets(hinders) will Let(hinder) until he is taken out of the way.
Once the Holy Spirit(which is God's mark of ownership on Christians) is removed(including the Christians) God will be free to judge(the Tribulation) the entire world. See .GREATKrAW.page 13
Seems to me that the "OSAS" doctrine believers have Many "secret events"Firstly the "Grace Age" is called a Secret event" Now the
rapture is a "secret Event" But its clear in the Old Testament that Both can be seen in the teachings to the Hebrews Or Israel as a whole Not just Juda(ie The Jews)only Blindness in PART has happened to Israel for Our sakes......thet we The Gentiles could be grafted in to take part of the Grace Age.....But that Blindness was NEVER said to be toward the Gathering back to Christ.In ANY WAY ..Nor incenuated in either the Old or New Testiments.....
To Mahoganysnail....
It's impossible to inguage in a battle of wits with unarmed people ,I refuse to cast anymore pearls befor swine,And suggest you do the same,Unless you feel God is calling you to do this.
I've Found you a link to help further your understanding of the Scriptures as a whole,If you trust me please go to this link,these are the Origional foot notes that were used to translate the Hebrew to the greek then finally to the english,the books are called the Massorahtic texts,Massorah means "to transfer from my mind to yours" in hebrew,therefor leaving no mistake in translation or interpretation,this is the book that most of the comentators and scollars that you quote used to get their understanding,And I hope you get the same blessing that they recieved.
http://www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/the_massorah_6.pdf
God bless you my friend,another useful link is http://philologos.org/online.htm ebooks.oe inparticular is Biblical mathematics by E.W Bullinger and Number in scripture by the same author.
Also have some good books by Ginzberg......
E.W. Bullinger
The Witness of the Stars
Number in Scripture
Ten Sermons on the Second Advent
The Apocalypse
How to Enjoy the Bible
Things to Come
The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State?
rapture is a "secret Event" But its clear in the Old Testament that Both can be seen in the teachings to the Hebrews Or Israel as a whole Not just Juda(ie The Jews)only Blindness in PART has happened to Israel for Our sakes......thet we The Gentiles could be grafted in to take part of the Grace Age.....But that Blindness was NEVER said to be toward the Gathering back to Christ.In ANY WAY ..Nor incenuated in either the Old or New Testiments.....
To Mahoganysnail....
It's impossible to inguage in a battle of wits with unarmed people ,I refuse to cast anymore pearls befor swine,And suggest you do the same,Unless you feel God is calling you to do this.
I've Found you a link to help further your understanding of the Scriptures as a whole,If you trust me please go to this link,these are the Origional foot notes that were used to translate the Hebrew to the greek then finally to the english,the books are called the Massorahtic texts,Massorah means "to transfer from my mind to yours" in hebrew,therefor leaving no mistake in translation or interpretation,this is the book that most of the comentators and scollars that you quote used to get their understanding,And I hope you get the same blessing that they recieved.
http://www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/the_massorah_6.pdf
God bless you my friend,another useful link is http://philologos.org/online.htm ebooks.oe inparticular is Biblical mathematics by E.W Bullinger and Number in scripture by the same author.
Also have some good books by Ginzberg......
Louis Ginzberg
The Legends of the Jews
The Legends of the Jews
E.W. Bullinger
The Witness of the Stars
Number in Scripture
Ten Sermons on the Second Advent
The Apocalypse
How to Enjoy the Bible
Things to Come
The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State?
Many others.......
B
OK for the record.
Before God judged the world with Noah's flood he removed the righteous.
Before God judged sodom and Gomorrah he removed the righteous.
Before God judges the world before the Millenium he will remove the righteous.
He(the Holy Spirirt) who Lets(hinders) will Let(hinder) until he is taken out of the way.
Once the Holy Spirit(which is God's mark of ownership on Christians) is removed(including the Christians) God will be free to judge(the Tribulation) the entire world. See .GREATKrAW.page 13
what do ye do with this my fellow Christian:
Mt 13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Lu 8:10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
1co 4:1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the MYSTERIES of God.
1co 13:2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all MYSTERIES, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
there are mysteries within the word of God the very reason God used parables in the old testament , and Jesus used them in the new testament , you as a christian are suppose to see these mysteries in the word but for them the mysteries are not given. so when paul starts off as I would not have you to be ignorant Brother, this is something that they won't see , to say that there is not hidden /secret/deep things in the Word is just saying you know not the word
Ro 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the MYSTERY, which was kept secret since the world began,
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Mt 13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Lu 8:10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
1co 4:1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the MYSTERIES of God.
1co 13:2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all MYSTERIES, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
there are mysteries within the word of God the very reason God used parables in the old testament , and Jesus used them in the new testament , you as a christian are suppose to see these mysteries in the word but for them the mysteries are not given. so when paul starts off as I would not have you to be ignorant Brother, this is something that they won't see , to say that there is not hidden /secret/deep things in the Word is just saying you know not the word
Ro 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the MYSTERY, which was kept secret since the world began,
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.