Hi Red:
hmmm how to keep the conversation civil yet still express my disagreement with you......
I can see where this conversation could go.
there are some assumptions you make I don't think are backed up with scripture (feel free to show me scriptures to back up your opinion if you like) :
1. you want to make a distinction between tribulation as is described in the Bible and this event you label as "great tribulation". I'm not convinced you have established your case that such a distinction should be made. However I see your logic if we were to accept this premise.
2. as for this statement "not one believer.... has been present for any wrath of God"
ummm there are a lot of verses that contradict that, but perhaps if we establish how you define "wrath of God" we might prevent miscommunication. I get the sense we may not be defining it the same. when you say "wrath of God" I think of these verses:
2 Kings 22:17
because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.’”’
2 Chronicles 24:18
Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass.
2 Chronicles 29:10
“Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us.
2 Chronicles 30:8
Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you.
2 Chronicles 34:25
because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place, and not be quenched.’”’
2 Chronicles 36:16
But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
Ezra 5:12
But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
3. the order seems kind of messed up.... these verses clearly say the son of perdition comes FIRST....
2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
it seems to say the "Day of Christ" is the same thing as the "gathering together to Him" and it says the "falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" before the "gathering together to Him"
4. I'm going to ignore the rest because it would be kind of pointless to respond to it.
the whole "you need to humble yourself and admit to my rightness" is kind of like watching two kids having a mud ball fight and saying how much cleaner they are then the other person.
I freely admit I might be wrong, but I thought the point of Bible discussion is not to argue who is right but to learn God revealed Truth as laid down by the prophets and apostles in His written word and allow His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into a deeper understanding. Not so that we might prideful sling dirt and tell others of our righteousness but so that we might know and as Paul says
"13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work."
I thought the point is to discern what traditions and doctrines were taught by Jesus Christ through His apostles and prophets and which are additions of men to control the minds of people and enslave them into the lies and deceptions of this world.
I don't know who the brethren are but Jesus tells us to treat all with love even our enemies. For me it is easier to do this if I believe those I address are chosen by God "from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" now we need to know WHAT the Gospel is and WHAT the Truth is, or should we say WHO?
My memory is not so great but it is not so bad that I have forgotten how lost and broken I was before I realized the need for repentance and truly understood the grace and love of God.
anyway I just think we should try harder to be established in "every good word and deed"
Focus on what is being discussed: God's revealed WORDS and trying to understand the message God wants us to believe without personal commentary which is more pride then truth.
I believe this.... this is why I believe this... you believe this.. .i don't understand why because I don't agree with your reading of these scriptures....
truthfully if we came together in prayer first perhaps it would help. Praying that God reveal His truth. that we would be willing to all be wrong if only God's truth was revealed and we follow His commands as expressed in these verses:
1 john 4
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[c] he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
ok I think i've ranted enough... nit.
