RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

[luciddream1982]

These scriptures seem to indicate two advents. Not three advents or two advents with a secret middle advent (rapture).

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the
poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Notice Jesus stops before the prophecy is complete. The first part is the first advent. He stops because the second part is future. The second part is the second coming. What happens immediately after the part where he says "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord"?....The day of vengeance happens.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, AND THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD

I dont see how you can fit in a middle secret advent or "rapture" unless that comma right before "and" is the rapture.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

<snip>
So anyone want to discuss the topic at hand?

1. how do you define the tribulation?

The word tribulation is used throughout the Bible and is not used just for the end.
Tribulation - thlipsis - oppression, affliction, distress, difficult situations or hardships
We all go through tribulations at one time or another but it will get worse to the point where it may be unbearable.

2. what is the rapture and when do you believe it happens?

I actually don't call it the "rapture" but the "gathering together" and this is the sequence in which I think it happens: (1) Christ's coming for his saints (Christ's return for His Church, the Body i.e. the gathering together), (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ's coming with his saints, (3) the first and second resurrections (the just and the unjust), (4) the end (telos) when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.

3. what Bible verses do you believe support your doctrine and beliefs?

1 Thess. 4:13-18
he apostasia "a falling away" he - the The prefix apo means "away from." stasia - means "to separate" or "draw out." Then he apostasia is "the separation away from" or "the drawing out from among;" it is a departure. So 2:3 can read like this: Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a departure (or a separation away from) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
(1Cor, 15:51-54) Resurrection only deals with the dead but in the mentioned verses there are those that are dead and those that remain alive so to truly be a "resurrection" all have to be dead to be raised.

I feel I really need to say something here - I am by no means saying that I am right and everyone else is wrong - this is just what I believe. Thanks.

In Christ. . . . .

 

[luciddream1982]

I actually don't call it the "rapture" but the "gathering together" and this is the sequence in which I think it happens: (1) Christ's coming for his saints (Christ's return for His Church, the Body i.e. the gathering together), (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ's coming with his saints, (3) the first and second resurrections (the just and the unjust), (4) the end (telos) when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.

Jesus says the tares will be "gathered first"

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, GATHER ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

It seems the ones being gathered first is the tares.



1 Thess. 4:13-18
he apostasia "a falling away" he - the The prefix apo means "away from." stasia - means "to separate" or "draw out." Then he apostasia is "the separation away from" or "the drawing out from among;" it is a departure. So 2:3 can read like this: Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a departure (or a separation away from) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
(1Cor, 15:51-54) Resurrection only deals with the dead but in the mentioned verses there are those that are dead and those that remain alive so to truly be a "resurrection" all have to be dead to be raised.

Some have suggested that the idea behind falling away is really a departure, in the sense of the rapture of the church. But a departure implies that the one leaving does so of his own accord and initiative, and this is not the case with the catching away of the church. In addition, the ancient Greek word in the New Testament (Act_21:21) or in the Septuagint, always speaks of something sinful and negative



I feel I really need to say something here - I am by no means saying that I am right and everyone else is wrong - this is just what I believe. . . . . Me too

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I actually don't call it the "rapture" but the "gathering together" and this is the sequence in which I think it happens: (1) Christ's coming for his saints (Christ's return for His Church, the Body i.e. the gathering together), (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ's coming with his saints, (3) the first and second resurrections (the just and the unjust), (4) the end (telos) when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.

Jesus says the tares will be "gathered first"

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, GATHER ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

It seems the ones being gathered first is the tares.

I see this as in the resurrection of the just (wheat) and the unjust (tares). The gathering together is in regard to the body of Christ, the born again believers.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
he apostasia "a falling away" he - the The prefix apo means "away from." stasia - means "to separate" or "draw out." Then he apostasia is "the separation away from" or "the drawing out from among;" it is a departure. So 2:3 can read like this: Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a departure (or a separation away from) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
(1Cor, 15:51-54) Resurrection only deals with the dead but in the mentioned verses there are those that are dead and those that remain alive so to truly be a "resurrection" all have to be dead to be raised.

Some have suggested that the idea behind falling away is really a departure, in the sense of the rapture of the church. But a departure implies that the one leaving does so of his own accord and initiative, and this is not the case with the catching away of the church. In addition, the ancient Greek word in the New Testament (Act_21:21) or in the Septuagint, always speaks of something sinful and negative

Yes, forsake is the same Greek word apostasia and in this context, I see what you are saying.

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him (Paul), Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous for the law: And they are informed of thee that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles for forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs." In a negative sense, in that the Jews which were among the Gentiles that received the holy Spirit being uncircumcised considered Paul was telling them to forsake Moses by the preaching the of uncircumcision and these believing Jews were still zealous for the law. (And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished as many as came with Peter because that on the Gentiles (uncircumcision) also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:45)

Whole different context.

 

[luciddream1982]

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles (vultures) be gathered together.

The flood took the bad away. The good (Noah) were left behind. Just another example of the bad being dealt with while the good remain.

 

[djness]

So how come you christians have not been able to figure out who is right with this subject for the last several hundred years?

Are you not led by the Spirit in your discerning of the Word? Are you not Children of the Most High God?

So why so many pages back and forth back and forth on this? How come you have not figured out EXACTLY how its going to happen?

What gives?

 

[luciddream1982]

So how come you christians have not been able to figure out who is right with this subject for the last several hundred years?

Are you not led by the Spirit in your discerning of the Word? Are you not Children of the Most High God?

So why so many pages back and forth back and forth on this? How come you have not figured out EXACTLY how its going to happen?

What gives?

Because even though the word is inspired and perfect....our interpretation isn't always.

 

[Saul_Durian]

So how come you christians have not been able to figure out who is right with this subject for the last several hundred years?

Are you not led by the Spirit in your discerning of the Word? Are you not Children of the Most High God?

So why so many pages back and forth back and forth on this? How come you have not figured out EXACTLY how its going to happen?

What gives?

Well, the whole pre-trib thing isn't several hundred years old. I believe it was the 1830s that this position came out.

And as far as not figuring it out. Even if the Bible is inerrant and the Word of God, with no human influence. That doesn't mean our understanding of it is inerrant.

 

[AnandaHya]

So how come you christians have not been able to figure out who is right with this subject for the last several hundred years?

Are you not led by the Spirit in your discerning of the Word? Are you not Children of the Most High God?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

So why so many pages back and forth back and forth on this? How come you have not figured out EXACTLY how its going to happen?

What gives?

Daniel 12
for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Acts 1
7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

 

[Zilla64007]

Well, the whole pre-trib thing isn't several hundred years old. I believe it was the 1830s that this position came out.

the pre-tribulation doctrine, and Dispensationalism, came about in 1827 starting with Edward Irving, and developed and brought to the United States in 1830 by John Nelson Darby

 

[Saul_Durian]

the pre-tribulation doctrine, and Dispensationalism, came about in 1827 starting with Edward Irving, and developed and brought to the United States in 1830 by John Nelson Darby

I was close at least for just shooting off the top of my head.

 

[AnandaHya]

I want to start by saying I appreciate how you and luciddreamer are keeping it civil.

Truly I hope we come together in the common goal of understanding God's revealed words.

with that being said I'll comment on your post

The word tribulation is used throughout the Bible and is not used just for the end.
Tribulation - thlipsis - oppression, affliction, distress, difficult situations or hardships
We all go through tribulations at one time or another but it will get worse to the point where it may be unbearable.

I agree the word tribulation is used throughout all of scripture and that is why I don't understand how or why people make the distinction between that kind of tribulation and what they refer to as "the Great Tribulation"

I believe they are referring to the events in Revelation which ones specifically depends upon the person you are talking to. at least that is what I have found.

I actually don't call it the "rapture" but the "gathering together" and this is the sequence in which I think it happens: (1) Christ's coming for his saints (Christ's return for His Church, the Body i.e. the gathering together), (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ's coming with his saints, (3) the first and second resurrections (the just and the unjust), (4) the end (telos) when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.

and here is where we disagree. I don't see how you get the sequence of your events. but let us examine the scriptures below. I think the root of it is how we read those verses in 1 Thess 4.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
he apostasia "a falling away" he - the The prefix apo means "away from." stasia - means "to separate" or "draw out." Then he apostasia is "the separation away from" or "the drawing out from among;" it is a departure.

this is NOT referring to the rapture, I'm not sure if you are imply it does or not. Apostasia is what Judas did when he betrayed Jesus... just wanted to make sure we are on the same page concerning this word....

So 2:3 can read like this: Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a departure (or a separation away from) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

ok the departure is FROM God and TO following the son of perdition. Some believe that the son of perdition to be the AntiChrist, but I always thought it referred to Satan, or the bound dragon. Drawing a parallel between Thes and Revelation 20.

On a side note: Judas has been called the son of perdition by Jesus in the Gospel accounts.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

(1Cor, 15:51-54) Resurrection only deals with the dead but in the mentioned verses there are those that are dead and those that remain alive so to truly be a "resurrection" all have to be dead to be raised.

not sure where you are going with these thoughts but here are the Bible verses that come to mind and the one you referenced:

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed&#8212; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: &#8220;Death is swallowed up in victory.&#8221;[g]

55 &#8220;O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?&#8221;
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

on the topic of resurrection from the dead we have these verses:

Romans 6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

also these talk about our current and future state as well. I believe it reveals how we are resurrected in our spirits but await our physical resurrection at Christ's second return which does not happen until Revelation 20 when He destroys the current world and judges the living and the dead before establishing the NEW Heaven and NEW Earth. I recognize that some disagree and believe Jesus returns to the Earth before then but I believe scripture reveals what Jesus does from HEAVEN NOW and what He did in the past and will do in the future from Heaven and in the Spiritual realm but people try and make it be in the Earthly realm where their fleshly eyes can see it. they forget that John was in the Spirit when he was given Revelation (revelation 1 v. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord&#8217;s Day, ), but that is another topic:



Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

I feel I really need to say something here - I am by no means saying that I am right and everyone else is wrong - this is just what I believe. Thanks.

In Christ. . . . .

lol I recognize I am more often wrong than right, but I remember this quote:

"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

This is presented as a statement of 1877, as quoted in From Telegraph to Light Bulb with Thomas Edison (2007) by Deborah Hedstrom, p. 22

Thomas Edison - Wikiquote

I think it reveals God's patience with us as we struggle to grow and understand and live His revealed words and Divine plans for the world and our lives.

 

[Avinu]

Maybe this will help clear some things up.

John Darby who was called the "Father of dispensationalism" is the one responsible for the wide spread teaching of pre-trib.
Darby's teaching of this started around the 1830's through his ministry called the Plymouth Brethren Movement, the doctrine was soon spread to America and was popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible.

A quote from Timothy P. Weber 'Memphis Theologian Seminary' wrote; "THe pretrib. rapture... historians are still trying to determine how or where Darby got it... Plssibly we may have to settle for Darby's own explanation. He claimed that the doctrine virtually jumped out of the pages of scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the church. (So here's Darby's first mistake, dual theology)

John Darby is quoted saying, "2 Thess. 2:1-2 in 1850 "It is this passage which, twenty yrs ago, made me understand the rapture of the saints before- the Day of the Lord, that is, before the judgement of the living.
So according to Darby, he held a different view till 1830.

Here is the verse that Darby claims to him there is a rapture.

2 Thess. 2:1-2 Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2) not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come

These two verses he claims told him there was a rapture. So it is clear he completely ignored the 3rd verse that says this can't happen until the anti-christ, son of perdition is revealed.

This is a prime example of someone who reads and sees what they want and not the truth. But because of his influence, this man is the cause of many following a false doctrine that now many teach. This is why we must study to show ourselves approved unto YHVH and quit listening to man.

 

[shroom2]

Maybe this will help clear some things up.

John Darby who was called the "Father of dispensationalism" is the one responsible for the wide spread teaching of pre-trib.
Darby's teaching of this started around the 1830's through his ministry called the Plymouth Brethren Movement, the doctrine was soon spread to America and was popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible.

A quote from Timothy P. Weber 'Memphis Theologian Seminary' wrote; "THe pretrib. rapture... historians are still trying to determine how or where Darby got it... Plssibly we may have to settle for Darby's own explanation. He claimed that the doctrine virtually jumped out of the pages of scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the church. (So here's Darby's first mistake, dual theology)

John Darby is quoted saying, "2 Thess. 2:1-2 in 1850 "It is this passage which, twenty yrs ago, made me understand the rapture of the saints before- the Day of the Lord, that is, before the judgement of the living.
So according to Darby, he held a different view till 1830.

Here is the verse that Darby claims to him there is a rapture.

2 Thess. 2:1-2 Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2) not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come

These two verses he claims told him there was a rapture. So it is clear he completely ignored the 3rd verse that says this can't happen until the anti-christ, son of perdition is revealed.

The "Day of the Lord" cannot happen until the apostasy. The gathering together (rapture) can happen at any time, after which will follow the tribulation, then the "Day of the Lord".

This is a prime example of someone who reads and sees what they want and not the truth. But because of his influence, this man is the cause of many following a false doctrine that now many teach. This is why we must study to show ourselves approved unto YHVH and quit listening to man.

There are administrations (dispensations) in scripture and they must be recognized to properly understand the bible.

 

[AnandaHya]

Shroom, do mind spelling out these "administrations" and list some of the scriptures you believe supports the idea?

I will truthfully admit that while reading the Bible, it doesn't jump out of the page to me.

do you also believe in the dual covenant theology? If so can you surmise the premises and the scriptures that would support such a belief?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I want to start by saying I appreciate how you and luciddreamer are keeping it civil.

Truly I hope we come together in the common goal of understanding God's revealed words.

with that being said I'll comment on your post

Just want to make a few comments. . . .

and here is where we disagree. I don't see how you get the sequence of your events. but let us examine the scriptures below. I think the root of it is how we read those verses in 1 Thess 4.

this is NOT referring to the rapture, I'm not sure if you are imply it does or not. Apostasia is what Judas did when he betrayed Jesus... just wanted to make sure we are on the same page concerning this word...

ok the departure is FROM God and TO following the son of perdition. Some believe that the son of perdition to be the AntiChrist, but I always thought it referred to Satan, or the bound dragon. Drawing a parallel between Thes and Revelation 20.

On a side note: Judas has been called the son of perdition by Jesus in the Gospel accounts.

As I said before we have to look at context - apostasia as in Judas case - Judas was separated away from Christ by his betrayal and in Acts 21:21 it was assumed by those still zealous for the law that Paul was trying to draw them away from Moses (forsake Moses) concerning the circumcision - and enough on that!!!!
<snip>

on the topic of resurrection from the dead we have these verses:

Romans 6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

It seems to me that those verses are talking about the difference of the "old man" (flesh)and the "new man" (spirit)?

In Christ. . . .

 

[shroom2]

Shroom, do mind spelling out these "administrations" and list some of the scriptures you believe supports the idea?

Here is a link to a PDF chart showing the administrations:

http://www.thelivingtruthfellowship.org/pdf/Administrations_in_Scripture.pdf

There are some scripture references on the chart.

Also here: Truth Or Tradition - 1 Corinthians 2:6, 7 Overview of the Sacred Secret, Musterion [not mystery] <--- Both the video and text are good.

Here's a link to the 2nd video in the series. 2 of 2 The eight Administrations in Scripture: How God changed the rules (Dispensationalism) - YouTube

I will truthfully admit that while reading the Bible, it doesn't jump out of the page to me.

do you also believe in the dual covenant theology? If so can you surmise the premises and the scriptures that would support such a belief?

I believe there are two covenants for Israel. I do not believe either covenant pertains to us, the Christian church. We are living in the dispensation of grace, something not known about until it was revealed to Paul (1 Cor 2:7,8, and Eph 3 )

I know you do not agree, but thanks for asking, Ananda.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The "Day of the Lord" cannot happen until the apostasy. The gathering together (rapture) can happen at any time, after which will follow the tribulation, then the "Day of the Lord".

There are administrations (dispensations) in scripture and they must be recognized to properly understand the bible.

I agree.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

In Christ. . . . .

 

[AnandaHya]

Here is a link to a PDF chart showing the administrations:

http://www.thelivingtruthfellowship.org/pdf/Administrations_in_Scripture.pdf

There are some scripture references on the chart.

Also here: Truth Or Tradition - 1 Corinthians 2:6, 7 Overview of the Sacred Secret, Musterion [not mystery] <--- Both the video and text are good.

the chart is missing some key things like Satan being released after the 1000 years

Here's a link to the 2nd video in the series. 2 of 2 The eight Administrations in Scripture: How God changed the rules (Dispensationalism) - YouTube

you seem to really like this website. I'll add it to my reading list.

I believe there are two covenants for Israel. I do not believe either covenant pertains to us, the Christian church. We are living in the dispensation of grace, something not known about until it was revealed to Paul (1 Cor 2:7,8, and Eph 3 )

I know you do not agree, but thanks for asking, Ananda.

lol yeah but one of the associate pastors mentioned this idea so I'd like to figure out where he's coming from.

 

[AnandaHya]

[/COLOR]As I said before we have to look at context - apostasia as in Judas case - Judas was separated away from Christ by his betrayal and in Acts 21:21 it was assumed by those still zealous for the law that Paul was trying to draw them away from Moses (forsake Moses) concerning the circumcision - and enough on that!!!!

ok.....

it is kind of important to distinguish if that verse is speaking about the Rapture or apostasia as it was used before when referring to Judas, who is also referred to the son of Perdition.. if examined in context the parallel usage is apparent to most readers of the Bible and most would conclude it is talking about a falling away and not a drawing away or gathering up when the author uses the word apostasia....

but if you've had enough we can move on to another topic....

It seems to me that those verses are talking about the difference of the "old man" (flesh)and the "new man" (spirit)?

In Christ. . . .
]

yes notice the usage of the word resurrection....

Romans 6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,