RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

Red33 · Feb 23, 2012

I always have the verses needed, but to put them out there sometimes, you would only try to argue your way out of the truth and that would hinder you even greater than you already are. It comes from the heart because that is where the word of God is hid, right there in the inner man dwelling richly in all wisdom and knowledge. I kind of feel like and fit into the following passages...

Is 32:1-4

1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.
2 And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.
3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
4 The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

Ps 45:1,2

1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

I can see these two passages being made into a melody with all kinds of grace just flooding the heart.

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

I always have the verses needed, but to put them out there sometimes, you would only try to argue your way out of the truth and that would hinder you even greater than you already are. It comes from the heart because that is where the word of God is hid, right there in the inner man dwelling richly in all wisdom and knowledge. I kind of feel like and fit into the following passages...

Is 32:1-4

1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.
2 And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.
3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
4 The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

Ps 45:1,2

1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

I can see these two passages being made into a melody with all kinds of grace just flooding the heart.

Sorry there is NOTHING in then verses showing Jesus coming to get us before the tribulation.

Common you got to do better than that

peacefulbeliever · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

I may be new here and I have read some of Red33 post and have not liked his attitude in some but on this, I will have to agree with him. We may not know everything God thinks but we can know what he has given us through his word.

2 Thessalonians 1-3 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The "day of Christ" and "our gathering together unto him do not occur until after there has been a "falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed" then the tribulation spoken of in Revelation will indeed be upon us, the church of the body. But if the period of wrath of the Book of Revelation is to be endured by the born again believers, then Christ lived, died, and rose in vain.

he apostasia "a falling away" he - the The prefix apo means "away from." stasia - means "to separate" or "draw out." Then he apostasia is "the separation away from" or "the drawing out from among;" it is a departure. So 2:3 can read like this: Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
What is God's word saying? That the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the born again believers' gathering together unto him will have become a reality before the "day of Christ" is at hand. That's why we are told to "not be shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter from us as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In Christ. . . .

luciddream1982 · Feb 23, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

2 Thessalonians 1-3 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The "day of Christ" and "our gathering together unto him do not occur until after there has been a "falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed" then the tribulation spoken of in Revelation will indeed be upon us, the church of the body. But if the period of wrath of the Book of Revelation is to be endured by the born again believers, then Christ lived, died, and rose in vain.

he apostasia "a falling away" he - the The prefix apo means "away from." stasia - means "to separate" or "draw out." Then he apostasia is "the separation away from" or "the drawing out from among;" it is a departure. So 2:3 can read like this: Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
What is God's word saying? That the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the born again believers' gathering together unto him will have become a reality before the "day of Christ" is at hand. That's why we are told to "not be shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter from us as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In Christ. . . .

This is something I read in a commentary..

ii. Some have suggested that the idea behind falling away is really a departure, in the sense of the rapture of the church. But a departure implies that the one leaving does so of his own accord and initiative, and this is not the case with the catching away of the church. In addition, the ancient Greek word in the New Testament (Act_21:21) or in the Septuagint, always speaks of something sinful and negative.

Red33 · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

I don't either because it was meant for something else, but hopefully you realized that right?

I know and have personal assurance through the written word and the Spirit that the church is going to be taken up before God begins His plan with Israel and the children of disobedience, but I think that God is going to honor your faith and let you go through it because you believe it so, providing the fact that you are still living. Peter, you want it so bad you can taste it, but we want the Lord to come quickly, the Spirit and the bride say come, and we can taste that the Lord is good, but to put us through the GTrib and the wrath of God is not the goodness of God. There are those that believe we are in the time of the tribulation already just to prove that those pre-tribbers don't know what they are talking about. Will God judge the righteous with the wicked when He pours out His wrath?

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

Heart felt verses on how God loves us and how righteous he is and how good God is, dos not show a pre-tribulation coming.

All through bible history Gods people have been hunted like animals and persecuted and torched to death.
From the OT and all through the NT into the book of Revelation.

But apparently God loves you pre-tribers even more, more that all of Gods other people in Bible history, and even more than the elect of God in the book of Revelation.

Listen to yourself, your doctrine is hypocritical and spineless

And you call Avinu “a spinless little coward”.

Just take a look at yourself and what you are teaching

You what to bury somebody come and bury me

Grandpa · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

Weren't you just a few minutes ago condemning this kind of behaviour?

Where did you say this behaviour comes from, I forget?

You even had bible verses didn't you? Shall we go look at them?

Post #121 pg 7... In case you don't remember...

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Grandpa said:

and what behaviour is that? what do you mean?

Grandpa · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

What? Who Me?

Go read post 121...

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

First you got to get it right. Wrath and tribulation are two different events.
The wrath is for the wicked the people that take the mark of the beast and bow to his image.

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

There we are standing on the sea of glass after getting the victory over the beast, and over his image, then the wrath is poured out upon the wicked on the people that have the mark if the beast.

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Its funny how some of you pre-tribers say the tribulation and the wrath are the same, it just helps with your delusion that God wouldn’t put us through the tribulation/wrath, therefor it must be a pre-tribulation coming.

God doesn’t put us through the wrath so you can take that one out of your book of tricks

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Grandpa said:

I did, but still don’t know what you mean.
and what behaviour is that? what do you mean?

Red33 · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

Explain this smart guy. Tell me why not one believer since the inception of the church has been a part of any great tribulation or present for any wrath from God. By your doctrine you can't, because no one has, nor will any believer be a part of it presently or in the future and you can bank on it, whether you believe that or not. This was preached and taught since the beginning of the church, so I have over 2,000 years of proof and evidence to back me, what do you have, a big fat zero and your own understanding.

I won't have to bury you, you will bury yourself in your own folly. I would like to see you comfort any believer with the words you preach that they will have to pass through the great tribulation coming upon the earth. You have the same folly in your thinking as those that believe that salvation can be lost or forfeited through sin. The doctrine of being caught up, both the living and the dead in Christ before any son of perdition comes upon the scene, is the glorious joy of being united with our Saviour in the clouds of the air and ever be with the Lord. If you don't want to believe that, fine, but leave others alone that have the witness of the Spirit of truth.

Avinu, can change if he wants to but by his own doctrine he would have to repent of many things including the doctrine of Christ and the church that he holds, and that goes for you also. Leave the sheep alone and go out the the way you came in or come in through the door and humble yourself.

peacefulbeliever · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

The word tribulation is used throughout the Bible and is not used just for the end.
Tribulation - thlipsis - oppression, affliction, distress, difficult situations or hardships
We all go through tribulations at one time or another and we do endure. I've already posted definitions on wrath so I will not do so again. Rather we are speaking of wrath or tribulation before the end (telos); we will be gathered together as spoken of in Thessalonians and in which God does not want us to be ignorant. What's funny is the "pre-tribers" aren't saying this - God is.

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Grandpa said:

I never called him “a spinless little coward”.

Nor did I threaten to bury him.

If you are going to accuse me of something just come right out and say it, don’t be shy.

If you are going to accuse me of something make shore you get it right

Or is that just you dribbling nonsense instead of the word of God.

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

This is not a big fat zero and my own understanding it's the word of God.

It just happens that Jesus comes in the clouds.

It just happens that Jesus comes at the last trumpet.

It just happens that Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel..

It just happens that Jesus raises the dead first.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised in the clouds

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised at the sound of the last trumpet

The two end time prophets are killed by the beast at the end of the great tribulation then are raised from the dead. at the last trumpet, in the clouds, after hearing a voce saying come up hither.

This is not a big fat zero and my own understanding that’s the word of God.

What have you got “ZIP” “ NOTHING” “ ZERO” just your delusion, just your fear and like of faith

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

Are forefathers all through Bible history have been hunted like animals, persecuted from city to city and torched to death.

The tribulation will be more of the same but worldwide that makes if the worst it’s ever been.

And God love you pre-tribers so much that he is going to deliver you when He has not according to bible history without a purging and purifying that what makes you gold.

Rev3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see

1 peter1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The pre-tribulation doctrine is absolutely delusional.

shroom2 · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

Nope. It's biblical, and will happen. Christ could return to gather the church at any moment.

...just to keep this nice friendly discourse going...

AnandaHya · Feb 23, 2012

Hi Red:

hmmm how to keep the conversation civil yet still express my disagreement with you......

I can see where this conversation could go.

there are some assumptions you make I don't think are backed up with scripture (feel free to show me scriptures to back up your opinion if you like) :

1. you want to make a distinction between tribulation as is described in the Bible and this event you label as "great tribulation". I'm not convinced you have established your case that such a distinction should be made. However I see your logic if we were to accept this premise.

2. as for this statement "not one believer.... has been present for any wrath of God"

ummm there are a lot of verses that contradict that, but perhaps if we establish how you define "wrath of God" we might prevent miscommunication. I get the sense we may not be defining it the same. when you say "wrath of God" I think of these verses:

2 Kings 22:17
because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.’”’

2 Chronicles 24:18
Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass.

2 Chronicles 29:10
“Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us.

2 Chronicles 30:8
Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you.

2 Chronicles 34:25
because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place, and not be quenched.’”’

2 Chronicles 36:16
But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

Ezra 5:12
But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.

3. the order seems kind of messed up.... these verses clearly say the son of perdition comes FIRST....

2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

it seems to say the "Day of Christ" is the same thing as the "gathering together to Him" and it says the "falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" before the "gathering together to Him"

4. I'm going to ignore the rest because it would be kind of pointless to respond to it.

the whole "you need to humble yourself and admit to my rightness" is kind of like watching two kids having a mud ball fight and saying how much cleaner they are then the other person.

I freely admit I might be wrong, but I thought the point of Bible discussion is not to argue who is right but to learn God revealed Truth as laid down by the prophets and apostles in His written word and allow His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into a deeper understanding. Not so that we might prideful sling dirt and tell others of our righteousness but so that we might know and as Paul says

"13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work."

I thought the point is to discern what traditions and doctrines were taught by Jesus Christ through His apostles and prophets and which are additions of men to control the minds of people and enslave them into the lies and deceptions of this world.

I don't know who the brethren are but Jesus tells us to treat all with love even our enemies. For me it is easier to do this if I believe those I address are chosen by God "from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" now we need to know WHAT the Gospel is and WHAT the Truth is, or should we say WHO?

My memory is not so great but it is not so bad that I have forgotten how lost and broken I was before I realized the need for repentance and truly understood the grace and love of God.

anyway I just think we should try harder to be established in "every good word and deed"

Focus on what is being discussed: God's revealed WORDS and trying to understand the message God wants us to believe without personal commentary which is more pride then truth.

I believe this.... this is why I believe this... you believe this.. .i don't understand why because I don't agree with your reading of these scriptures....

truthfully if we came together in prayer first perhaps it would help. Praying that God reveal His truth. that we would be willing to all be wrong if only God's truth was revealed and we follow His commands as expressed in these verses:

1 john 4
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[c] he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

ok I think i've ranted enough... nit.

Red33 said:

Explain this smart guy. Tell me why not one believer since the inception of the church has been a part of any great tribulation or present for any wrath from God.

. The doctrine of being caught up, both the living and the dead in Christ before any son of perdition comes upon the scene, is the glorious joy of being united with our Saviour in the clouds of the air and ever be with the Lord.

Click to expand...

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

shroom2 said:

Dream on shroom2 dream on.

It all would be so funny if the pre-trib delusion wasn’t so evil

shroom2 · Feb 23, 2012

peterT said:

If Christ returns tonight, are you ready?

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