RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

Zilla64007 · Feb 22, 2012

last time i checked, red33 was the one that threatened another poster on here...

unclefester · Feb 22, 2012

If two wrongs don't make a right,... try three

Zilla64007 · Feb 22, 2012

normally, it's the pre-tribbers who accuse, attack, and belittle others, not post-tribbers... i know this from first hand experience

unclefester · Feb 22, 2012

How's this for a scary thought ? God willing (and hopefully in His presence), a whole bunch of us here are going to be spending eternity together. I hope I don't have to sit next to you

jes' joshin' ya

peacefulbeliever · Feb 22, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

Uh - oh I am a pre tribber!

If we are saved from wrath (Romans 5:9), delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10) and we have not been appointed to wrath (1 Thess. 5:9) then it stands to reason that we will be gathered together with him before the great tribulation during which God will express his wrath.

Zilla64007 · Feb 22, 2012

God's wrath is not expressed until the Judgement seat of Christ... do a word study on what wrath is, and the different kinds of wrath God has... not what popular commentators tell you.

AnandaHya · Feb 22, 2012

can we keep it civil?

James 3:7-9
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.

peacefulbeliever · Feb 22, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

I really don't listen much to commentators. I know that wrath (orge) is anger, anger exhibited in punishment - we haven't seen God's anger but God's mercy! The wrath of God will be shown against the children of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6, Col. 3:6) Maybe a study on the "judgment seat of Christ" would help also.

In Christ. . . .

Zilla64007 · Feb 22, 2012

okay, that's good, you've done a little study on that...

now, read the context of 1 thessalonians 5:9 and 1 thessalonians 1:10, and see which wrath God is talking about... keep in mind that the book of revelation is not a chronological book.

also, look up the word "wrath" in revelation 15:1 and 16:1, and read that definition of that word... you'll see something that's very interesting...

Avinu · Feb 22, 2012

AnandaHya, I love your pics you post. They are so cool and beautiful. Shalom Sis.

Avinu · Feb 22, 2012

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here is more to go with Matt. 13:30

Matt. 24: 37-42

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
When YHVH destroyed the earth, Noah and his family didn't go anywhere, they were kept safe in a boat. But all the wicked of the world were destroyed, and removed. There was nothing left of them.

Seems this verse would refute a pre-tribulation rapture. People believe we will gather back to Christ first but it seems the first gathering will be that of the tares and then the wheat.

And then this....

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

very good my friend. Nicely done, Shalom

Red33 · Feb 23, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

You call that a threat do you? For those of you that put yourself under the law to obey it, this is what the scriptures teach (Rom 3:19-22)...

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Those that have put themselves under the law keep pointing out the knowledge of sin and become experts at it, while they themselves live in iniquity and don't know it. The righteousness of God is manifested without the law so you can't seek righteousness through the law. The righteousness of God is sought by faith in the person of Christ that is full of grace and truth. Hating iniquity is loving and going after righteousness.

For anyone to believe that God would put the body and bride of Christ, God's precious possession redeemed by the blood of His Son, through a time of wrath and great tribulation does not understand the righteousness of God. They live under the law of their own understanding and not the law of faith that comes from sound doctrine through the written word and the Holy Spirit. To subject any member of God's precious possession to this time would be to subject the Son, who lives and abides in the believer. Jesus was already subject to the wrath of God once and for all on the cross, do we subject Him again with our own understanding that in some strange way the church (the fulness of God) is going to be subject to a time of great tribulation that has never been known or experienced on earth.

This time of tribulation is GREAT (awful and terrible) and is for the benefit of Israel to wake them up and for an outpouring against the children of disobedience. The body and bride of Christ has no place in that plan and time that has been ordained and set apart by the Father to come upon the earth. For God to subject God's redeemed would go against every single thing that was accomplished on the cross by His Son through redemption. If we have been 'called out' of the world and are no longer of it, why would we be subject to the wrath of God coming upon it? So, before the wrath of God comes during the time of great wrath and tribulation, we shall be called once again to be taken up out of the world, both the living and the dead in Christ, removing the living testimony of Jesus Christ and all that God wrought in the life of every believer through the word, the cross and the Holy Spirit, that was restraining the son of perdition from coming upon the scene.

There will also be a falling away first, unfortunately, but that is not what restrains that son of perdition, it is the presence of Christ in His body that is restraining that wicked one from being manifested and when that body of Christ is taken away, deception will come full force through the mystery of iniquity and the doctrine of Christ will revoked and trampled by the spirit of antichrist.

Zilla64007 · Feb 23, 2012

then who is the restrainer?

kujo313 · Feb 23, 2012

Avinu said:

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD.
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE... ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD.

AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE.

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED.

NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE.
THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.

SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

It's not really WHAT you believe but that "are you getting ready?" and "are you doing what Jesus said to do?"

Are you preaching the Gospel? Are you making disciples?

Just keep on keeping on. When the time comes, it comes.
Everybody in Biblical days who was looking for Jesus' return DIED. But they didn't just sit and wait. They went out and preached! They taught! They made disciples!

Just DO something!

peacefulbeliever · Feb 23, 2012

Wh

Zilla64007 said:

Context 1 Thess. 5:9: For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (unbelievers) (CONTRAST) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. (believers)
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. (unbelievers) (CONTRAST) But let us who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath (anger exhibited in punishment), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (believers) Wherefore (because of this) comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Context 1 Thess. 1:10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (anger exhibited in punishment) to come.

Hmmm - you must see something that I don't. I see that we escape punishment. The other "anger" is
"thymos" used as wrath (15), fierceness (2), indignation (1) comes from the root "thyo" used as kill (8), sacrifice (3) do sacrifice (2) slay (1) - so you are saying that we get born again and do our utmost to live for God only to be killed and sacrificed - for what? Wasn't Christ our sacrifice?

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (4:18) Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another even as also ye do. (5:11) Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts and stablish you in every good word and work. (2 Thess. 2:16,17)

In Christ. . . .

Avinu · Feb 23, 2012

I agree with you here, but also it has ALOT to do with WHAT you believe. But what good is it if you believe in something false and your teaching that lie? Then you're just misleading others. The Gospel doesn't just consist of preaching Yeshua, but revealing the truth of all His word and correcting when someone/s are teaching a part of it wrong.

Red33 · Feb 23, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

The answer was in the previous post, so I have highlighted it this time so you can't miss it.

For anyone to believe that God would put the body and bride of Christ, God's precious possession redeemed by the blood of His Son, through a time of wrath and great tribulation does not understand the righteousness of God. They live under the law of their own understanding and not the law of faith that comes from sound doctrine through the written word and the Holy Spirit. To subject any member of God's precious possession to this time would be to subject the Son, who lives and abides in the believer. Jesus was already subject to the wrath of God once and for all on the cross, do we subject Him again with our own understanding that in some strange way the church (the fulness of God) is going to be subject to a time of great tribulation that has never been known or experienced on earth.

This time of tribulation is GREAT (awful and terrible) and is for the benefit of Israel to wake them up and for an outpouring against the children of disobedience. The body and bride of Christ has no place in that plan and time that has been ordained and set apart by the Father to come upon the earth. For God to subject God's redeemed would go against every single thing that was accomplished on the cross by His Son through redemption. If we have been 'called out' of the world and are no longer of it, why would we be subject to the wrath of God coming upon it? So, before the wrath of God comes during the time of great wrath and tribulation, we shall be called once again to be taken up out of the world, both the living and the dead in Christ, removing the living testimony of Jesus Christ and all that God wrought in the life of every believer through the word, the cross and the Holy Spirit, that was restraining the son of perdition from coming upon the scene.

There will also be a falling away first, unfortunately, but that is not what restrains that son of perdition, it is the presence of Christ in His body that is restraining that wicked one from being manifested and when that body of Christ is taken away, deception will come full force through the mystery of iniquity and the doctrine of Christ will revoked and trampled by the spirit of antichrist.

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

The answer was in the previous post, so I have highlighted it this time so you can't miss it.For anyone to believe that God would put the body and bride of Christ, God's precious possession redeemed by the blood of His Son, through a time of wrath and great tribulation does not understand the righteousness of God. They live under the law of their own understanding and not the law of faith that comes from sound doctrine through the written word and the Holy Spirit. To subject any member of God's precious possession to this time would be to subject the Son, who lives and abides in the believer. Jesus was already subject to the wrath of God once and for all on the cross, do we subject Him again with our own understanding that in some strange way the church (the fulness of God) is going to be subject to a time of great tribulation that has never been known or experienced on earth.

This time of tribulation is GREAT (awful and terrible) and is for the benefit of Israel to wake them up and for an outpouring against the children of disobedience. The body and bride of Christ has no place in that plan and time that has been ordained and set apart by the Father to come upon the earth. For God to subject God's redeemed would go against every single thing that was accomplished on the cross by His Son through redemption. If we have been 'called out' of the world and are no longer of it, why would we be subject to the wrath of God coming upon it? So, before the wrath of God comes during the time of great wrath and tribulation, we shall be called once again to be taken up out of the world, both the living and the dead in Christ, removing the living testimony of Jesus Christ and all that God wrought in the life of every believer through the word, the cross and the Holy Spirit, that was restraining the son of perdition from coming upon the scene.

There will also be a falling away first, unfortunately, but that is not what restrains that son of perdition, it is the presence of Christ in His body that is restraining that wicked one from being manifested and when that body of Christ is taken away, deception will come full force through the mystery of iniquity and the doctrine of Christ will revoked and trampled by the spirit of antichrist.

Blar Blar Blar
Where are the Bible Verses?

Grandpa · Feb 23, 2012

Avinu said:

Agreed. Such as when someone mistakes Spiritual things for Physical things.

Revelations 1:9-10

9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John was in the Spirit, teaching/showing what happens in the spirit, and what will happen in the spirit.

If you teach that the Lord saves you in some future physical event that everyone has to wait for, you are in just as much error as the ones that think they can get there without tribulation. Crucifying your flesh is just as much tribulation as the steps that lead you to that point.

The Lord Saves, Right Now.

Revelations. That means something needs to be revealed. It is revealed by the Lord. The Kingdom is at hand.

peterT · Feb 23, 2012

Red33 said:

The answer was in the previous post, so I have highlighted it this time so you can't miss it.For anyone to believe that God would put the body and bride of Christ, God's precious possession redeemed by the blood of His Son, through a time of wrath and great tribulation does not understand the righteousness of God. They live under the law of their own understanding and not the law of faith that comes from sound doctrine through the written word and the Holy Spirit. To subject any member of God's precious possession to this time would be to subject the Son, who lives and abides in the believer. Jesus was already subject to the wrath of God once and for all on the cross, do we subject Him again with our own understanding that in some strange way the church (the fulness of God) is going to be subject to a time of great tribulation that has never been known or experienced on earth.

This time of tribulation is GREAT (awful and terrible) and is for the benefit of Israel to wake them up and for an outpouring against the children of disobedience. The body and bride of Christ has no place in that plan and time that has been ordained and set apart by the Father to come upon the earth. For God to subject God's redeemed would go against every single thing that was accomplished on the cross by His Son through redemption. If we have been 'called out' of the world and are no longer of it, why would we be subject to the wrath of God coming upon it? So, before the wrath of God comes during the time of great wrath and tribulation, we shall be called once again to be taken up out of the world, both the living and the dead in Christ, removing the living testimony of Jesus Christ and all that God wrought in the life of every believer through the word, the cross and the Holy Spirit, that was restraining the son of perdition from coming upon the scene.

There will also be a falling away first, unfortunately, but that is not what restrains that son of perdition, it is the presence of Christ in His body that is restraining that wicked one from being manifested and when that body of Christ is taken away, deception will come full force through the mystery of iniquity and the doctrine of Christ will revoked and trampled by the spirit of antichrist.

Are you lessening to you self?

You’re so smart you know how god thinks, and that he would be unjust if he did some things.

8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God put Jesus through it until he was killed, God put the disciples through it and torched and were killed, God put the prophets through it until they were killed. It doesn’t get are worse than that.

If you want to dribble nonsense go ahead, or you can get you Bible out and show a pre-trib coming

RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

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