RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?
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Rev. 20:4-5
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Gramps, you just make it too easy. As you can see in the blue, that those beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast, etc. etc. is right out of Rev. 13, which is the tribulation. You need to read before you speak, so you don't make yourself look so foolish. You're so bent on trying to prove me wrong in something, that you cut your nose off.
Where does it say it is during the Great Tribulation? In Either Rev 20 or Rev 13?
That is your personal interpretation.
Like I said earlier, I don't know if you are wrong. I just know that the scriptures don't say what you are trying to make them say. You know, the whole twisting of scripture to make it say what you want it to stuff that you insist you dislike?
This is why I stopped talking to you. You have absolutely no knowledge of scripture, or you're just playing games. Because anyone who actually reads the Bible knows that Rev. is all about the great tribulation and the anti-christ and everything with it. You are just purposely playing games. So I leave you to your ignorance, because it's not worth wasting my time.
The people you don't want to deal with you insult and try to demonize with your wicked tongue. You are a spinless little coward. I have met many of your ilk, and your the least bit impressive. Pick on me if you want and I will bury you, that's a promise and challenge I would enjoy. You have the gutz? If not then keep your wicked tongue to yourself.
Yes. When Christ returns for the church, dead Christians will be raised and living Christians will be changed.
As noted, the gathering of the church is a separate event from the "first" resurrection. Again, this timeperiod of the age of grace was not known about until God revealed it to Paul. -Nobody- knew the significance of what happened on the day of pentecost, that it was the start of the Christian church, one body of believers made up of both Jews and gentiles. It started at pentecost, and will end with the rapture. Then the trib will commence, with the events Jesus mentioned in Matt 24, and the book of Revelation taking place.
You take scripture and you put your beliefs inside of them and tell everyone it is what the bible is saying. When, in fact, it is what the bible says to you, because of the way you believe. It is the height of Pride to call people names that don't agree with the way you think.
I love the bible. I have seen all sorts of doctrines that people think they prove with it. It is because of their short-sightedness and ignorance of spiritual matters that they think everyone who doesn't see it their way is stupid, or playing games.
I think people have greatly mis-interpreted Revelation for the most part. I think Revelation is attempting to describe spiritual matters. And for the most part I haven't met anyone who really understands the spiritual matters. We understand a little here and there, but we don't get all of it. The bible even says that we see as through a glass, darkly. Do you even know what that means?
I really hope you surprise me.
Every person here claims to do that.
That's wonderful.
Says you. I believe 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are talking about Christ returning for the church, and that it will happen before the trib starts. In those sections, we meet Christ in the air. When he returns at the second coming to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom, he will return TO EARTH, and stand on the mount of olives.
If you're up for a little reading:
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together
I believe the truth of scripture, just not in some of the ways you interpret it.
Some of my beliefs are contrary to yours. I do not believe they are contrary to the word of God.
The two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 4,5 are the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust, and as revealed by Paul, do not concern the Christian church. Paul made known a mystery (1 Cor 15:51). Christ will be returning before the trib starts to gather the Christian church.
I do not believe the book of revelation concerns us (Christians) as we will be gathered together with Christ before it begins to play out. This timeperiod we are living in, the administration of grace, was not known about in the OT or the gospels. It began on the day of pentecost, and will end with the rapture. Matt 24 is not addressed to Christians. The events in Matt 24 will play out in the book of Revelation.
I believe Christians have been delivered from the wrath to come.
I am fully aware many do not agree with my viewpoint on this, but that's OK.
I am beginning to see why you and SuperDave come to verbal blows so frequently. Your perspective seems to be that it's your way or it's the wrong way, and anyone who disagrees with you is "twisting" scripture and "unbiblical".
...not that I agree with SuperDave on everything....
That's wonderful.
Says you. I believe 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are talking about Christ returning for the church, and that it will happen before the trib starts. In those sections, we meet Christ in the air. When he returns at the second coming to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom, he will return TO EARTH, and stand on the mount of olives.
If you're up for a little reading:
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together
I believe the truth of scripture, just not in some of the ways you interpret it.
Some of my beliefs are contrary to yours. I do not believe they are contrary to the word of God.
The two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 4,5 are the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust, and as revealed by Paul, do not concern the Christian church. Paul made known a mystery (1 Cor 15:51). Christ will be returning before the trib starts to gather the Christian church.
I do not believe the book of revelation concerns us (Christians) as we will be gathered together with Christ before it begins to play out. This timeperiod we are living in, the administration of grace, was not known about in the OT or the gospels. It began on the day of pentecost, and will end with the rapture. Matt 24 is not addressed to Christians. The events in Matt 24 will play out in the book of Revelation.
I believe Christians have been delivered from the wrath to come.
I am fully aware many do not agree with my viewpoint on this, but that's OK.
I am beginning to see why you and SuperDave come to verbal blows so frequently. Your perspective seems to be that it's your way or it's the wrong way, and anyone who disagrees with you is "twisting" scripture and "unbiblical".
...not that I agree with SuperDave on everything....
This bride will be caught away before this time of trouble, separate and distinct from the resurrections that will follow, one at the end of the (7) year trib, which is the second part of the first resurrection having to do with the just, who are made up of the church, the OT saints and the tribulation saints, and the other at the end of the millennial reign of Christ that has to do with the wicked and the second death. Is it that difficult to understand that there are two parts or advents to the first resurrection that are scene as one resurrection of the just? The righteous and just shall not be judged with the wicked.
There are judgment seats associated with each resurrection, even with Christ death at the cross where all sin was judged and will never be judged again. The second death is not a judgment of sin but of those who work iniquity despite their sin being already judged. They will die in their sin that has not been forgiven or cleansed by the blood of Christ.
I love how people can just declare whatever they want from scripture. So you're declaring that Yeshua will secretly resurrect the church believers and those alive, but that will not be the first ressurection. I'm going to laugh my head off when the trib. starts and you your homies are still here. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
A
Matthew 24:29-31
New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
I just wanted to insert Bible verses and reread Zilla's words
New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
I just wanted to insert Bible verses and reread Zilla's words
You accuse me of declaring whatever I want from scripture. You said I am declaring "that Yeshua will secretly resurrect the church believers and those alive, but that will not be the first ressurection".
It is not me declaring it, it was Paul, in 1 Cor 15:51.
Red is right. You do not understand that scripture must be understood in light of the administrations. This timeperiod (administration) we are now living in was not known about until it was revealed to Paul. It started at pentecost, and will end with the rapture. In 1 Cor 15:51, Paul is explaining how it will end.
After the church is gathered, shortly thereafter the trib will start, with the events in Matt 24 and Revelation taking place. At the end of the trib, Christ will return TO earth to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom. That's when the resurrection of the just will happen, as described in Rev 20:4.
Avinu, in case you haven't figured it out, I am a dispensationalist. I firmly believe the bible must be understood in light of the administrations (dispensations). Here's a few more labels people have hung on me: I am also a Unitarian, an annihilationalist, and a charismatic (I operate the manifestations of holy spirit). I believe all these concepts are firmly rooted in scripture.
If you want to discuss any of this, in this thread or others, I'll be happy to try and accommodate you. If all you want to do is bash, and tell me how "unbiblical" my faith is, forget it.
It is not me declaring it, it was Paul, in 1 Cor 15:51.
Red is right. You do not understand that scripture must be understood in light of the administrations. This timeperiod (administration) we are now living in was not known about until it was revealed to Paul. It started at pentecost, and will end with the rapture. In 1 Cor 15:51, Paul is explaining how it will end.
After the church is gathered, shortly thereafter the trib will start, with the events in Matt 24 and Revelation taking place. At the end of the trib, Christ will return TO earth to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom. That's when the resurrection of the just will happen, as described in Rev 20:4.
Avinu, in case you haven't figured it out, I am a dispensationalist. I firmly believe the bible must be understood in light of the administrations (dispensations). Here's a few more labels people have hung on me: I am also a Unitarian, an annihilationalist, and a charismatic (I operate the manifestations of holy spirit). I believe all these concepts are firmly rooted in scripture.
If you want to discuss any of this, in this thread or others, I'll be happy to try and accommodate you. If all you want to do is bash, and tell me how "unbiblical" my faith is, forget it.
For those that believe in a Rapture, and use Mat. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21
How do you explain these verses?
Mat 24:32 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.
Isn't the fig tree a direct reference to The Nation Israel?
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.
Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.
Luk 21:32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.
How do you explain these verses?
Mat 24:32 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.
Isn't the fig tree a direct reference to The Nation Israel?
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.
Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.
Luk 21:32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.
L
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Seems this verse would refute a pre-tribulation rapture. People believe we will gather back to Christ first but it seems the first gathering will be that of the tares and then the wheat.
And then this....
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Seems this verse would refute a pre-tribulation rapture. People believe we will gather back to Christ first but it seems the first gathering will be that of the tares and then the wheat.
And then this....
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
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