Retire the Ten Commandments?

PS · Apr 25, 2019

Agreed... and Jesus is the temple of our faith.

Wall · Apr 26, 2019

GALATIANS 3[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

DEUT.11 [26] Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;[27] A BLESSING, IF YE OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD YOUR GOD, WHICH I COMMAND YOU THIS DAY:[28] AND A CURSE, IF YE WILL NOT OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD YOUR GOD, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known

The “many” will tell you the law itself is the curse. Just read Deut.11 to know the truth. Christ did not come to destroy the law but came to redeem us from the curse of the law that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through FAITH. BUT...

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

Grampa, just look at the scripture you posted. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law {the 10 commandments, the schoolmaster}. Have you ever been under the law? Have you ever observed to keep His day of rest which sanctifies you? So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and THE FAITH OF JESUS.

Faith and the commandments. The “Many” will say you cant mix faith and the law. Show them Rev.14

Guojing · Apr 27, 2019

Wall said:

You are interpreting this based on your established view that the 10 commandments are still relevant for Gentile Christians.

Others will interpret Romans 3:31 differently. When we accept Jesus, who fulfilled all the laws on our behalf, God considered us as having establish the law.

It is a done deal, and not something we need to keep doing, by our own efforts, after we are in Christ.

As for Rev 14, the Gentile Church would have already been raptured to be with their Bride, Christ Jesus, before the Tribulation begins. That verse is referring to the Jews and the unbelieving Gentiles during the Tribulation, as evident from the start of that chapter where they talk about 144,000 and 2 witnesses.

You must always remember that all of us interpret the Bible based on our preconceived notions taught by the pastors leading the church that we attend.

Grandpa · Apr 27, 2019

Wall said:

Yes. Of course I was under law. Everyone is under the law until they come to Christ.

But when they come to Christ they are no longer under the law. Because everyone that the law has brought to Christ understands that they can't perform the law. They need a Saviour.

After you have been saved do you throw yourself back into the same situation you were in to need saving again or does it make more sense to stay saved and to (try..) stay out of that situation that causes you to need to be saved again?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

If you are trying to do what the bible says then you will STOP working at your understanding of the law (which isn't the correct understanding anyway) and you will abide forever in your Saviour Jesus Christ.

It doesn't make sense to say that you have a Saviour that tells you that you must keep that gun to your head after each time you come to Him.

It makes much more sense to say that your Saviour takes that gun away and has saved you from death.

The Lord Jesus Christ tells us that we can do NOTHING without Him. That means that those who abide in Him, those who have faith in Christ, keep the law better WITHOUT working at it than ANYONE who works at it in their own strength and understanding.

How is that possible? Those who work at the law are under the curse. Because they can't keep it by their own strength and understanding. Only by the Strength and Understanding of the Lord Jesus Christ is the Law kept.

Read Matthew 5 a few times and be honest with yourself. Try to keep in mind the very FIRST thing the Lord says in Matt 5.

Grandpa · Apr 27, 2019

Guojing said:

I'm not so sure about that.

Pastors can't give you Revelation in the Knowledge of Christ. Without that knowledge all you have is your work at the law. All you have is your own strength and someone elses "understanding".

safswan · May 4, 2019

mailmandan said:

And you are having a rather senior moment or are simply being deceptive? You quoted me as saying:

"Herein lies your problem. You ignore the scriptures which place the elements discussed by Paul in the pass."

When I said no such thing.The complete statement was:

"Herein lies your problem.You ignore the scriptures which place the elements discussed by Paul in the passage in the proper context.Let me repeat:"

I went on to explain the context and to show why the seventh day Sabbath is not among that which is proscribed by Paul in the passage in question.You ignored every thing that was said and went on to respond to another post.Now who is confused?:

mailmandan said:

Your pattern is nowhere found in scripture.Are you blind?You claimed the pattern is:

"Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath."

I have showed clearly this is not true and is only seen in one of the passages you cited.As I wrote:

The passages actually read:

"1Ch 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, .....:"

Which would be the opposite of what you claim i.e weekly,monthly,yearly.All the passages you cited are the same except for:

"Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths,...."

And an even more pattern averse passage was:

"Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts."

yearly, monthly,weekly,yearly?

Again,your pattern is not in scripture and is simply an invention of men used to deceive.The understanding of Colossians 2 is not derived from imaginary patterns but from examining the elements in the passage using the light of other scriptures which refer to the same things.As I wrote:

"It is the book of Hebrews which explains the nature of these ordinances and shadows:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come and not the very image of the things,can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect....For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins."[Hebrews 10:1-4]

And:

"Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."[Hebrews 9:9-12]

These scriptures explain what the shadows are and even that the meat and drink refer to offerings made at those occasions and were not a reference to any eating or drinking(of which I know none)laws."

mailmandan said:

You conveniently interpret the scripture to exclude non Israelites who were obviously not there but if this is truly so,then you need to exclude also,anyone at all who were not there.But then you know this was not the intention,but that this passage actually helps us to understand how God entrusted His truth to Israel as Paul says:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."(Romans 3:2)

Just because the covenant was made with them does not make it only for,them there at the time.nor is it only for Israel.

mailmandan said:

And who else could Moses be speaking to at this time?And for what reason was the kindling of the fire?See Exodus 16:23.

mailmandan said:

But it clearly proves it was not only for Israel.

safswan · May 4, 2019

mailmandan said:

So who are they to join themselves to?Baal?If they desire salvation what should they do?Invent their own covenant or attach themselves to the people whom God gave His word?Is there salvation outside of the covenant God made with Israel?

mailmandan said:

The Sabbath command itself and scriptures like Isaiah 56,clearly shows that the Sabbath was meant for more than just Israelites.Mark 2 confirms this and shows for whom it was made.Jesus was clear in what he said.He referred to the making of the Sabbath not the giving and hence this removes Israel from the context.You must go back to when it was made and you will understand it was made for all mankind not only for Israel.Your explanation holds no water.

mailmandan said:

When you use the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus then you can reason like you do.Whereas we see and understand why the scriptures of the apostles proscribe circumcision for the Christian,there is no scripture,when properly understood,which proscribes the Sabbath for the Christian.

mailmandan said:

You need to ask yourself;why did they join themselves to the Lord?And if they did not join themselves to the Lord then what is their fate?You also fail to understand the ramifications of the passage in question.

In Isaiah 56, the conditions dictate that this must be a reference to the new covenant and not;"when aliens were proselytized and made a part of Israel.",as you claim.

No eunuch could be apart of the congregation of Israel under the old covenant; or should we disregard the words of Moses?[Deuteronomy 23:1-3]

The promise to eunuchs and strangers to have a name and place that is better than the sons and daughters would also be contrary to the words of Moses and could not be accommodated under the old covenant.[Isaiah 56:5-7;Deuteronomy 17:15;Leviticus 22:10-12.]

Could the prophet Isaiah speak words contrary to the above and still be considered a true prophet of God?Or was he speaking of the future?[Deuteronomy 12:32;13:1-5]

What is the salvation to come and the righteousness to be revealed?[Isaiah 56:1;see,Luke 1:67-79;2:26-32;Isaiah 42:1-7;Luke 4:18;Acts 13:46,47.]

What is the holy mountain to which the eunuchs and strangers will be brought to?[Isaiah 56:7;see,Hebrews 12:22-24;Isaiah 2:1-4]

All of this points to a prophecy about the new covenant and just cannot be referring to the old.This has nothing to do with proselytizing.

mailmandan said:

Again you add to scripture.The passage nowhere has the word ONLY.Also you quote the passage and then ignores what it means or you really don't understand.If they are:

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

How can they have hope?How can they be saved?By remaining as/where they are?God gave His word to Israel but it was not only for them.They were custodians and for others to be saved they had to:

"... join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"(Isaiah 56:6)

Or are you saying there was one standard of salvation for Israel and another for the nations/Gentiles?

Karraster · May 4, 2019

Commandments retired? Guess the adversary didn't get the memo.....

Revelation 12:17
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring-those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

safswan · May 4, 2019

Endoscopy said:

Someone said:
"The Ten Commandments are given no prominence in the scripture" [Page 31] and that, "The Law is a unit and includes the six hundred and thirteen (613) commandments of the Pentateuch."

He does this in order to refute teaching which divides the Law into moral, ceremonial, civil etc. and which maintains that only the moral are relevant to Christians.

The teaching is a generalization which needs much clarification and may be used to help the "babe" in Christ understand the changes which the coming of Christ brought. This person in his haste to show the faults in this teaching has failed to address or does not know of scriptures which do show that God Himself has made a distinction which shows the purpose for certain laws and their relative importance.

Prophecies which tell of the coming of the Lord Jesus also show, how, obviously different parts of the Law would be treated. It must be admitted that the attempt to make a distinction between the Law of God and the Law of Moses is faulty but it must also be admitted, that not all persons reason this way.

Are The Ten Commandments Given Prominence In Scripture?

Some say no to the above although they will mention scriptures which show the contrary. They claim it was because the people asked God to no longer speak to them why he stopped at the tenth (10th) commandment or else he may have continued until he had given all six hundred and thirteen.

They say; "However when he spoke the first ten commandments of the Law, he was interrupted by the congregation."

Again, they highlight their lack of understanding of the situation, caused by their ignorance of what the scriptures actually say about the subject.

The people had knowledge of God's Laws before Mount Sinai as Moses was judging between the people and teaching them "The statutes of God and His Laws". (Exodus 18:16). Other men who were called to help Moses judging, who feared God and who were men of truth must have known His laws also. (Exodus 18:21, 22).

The people had been told of the Passover and reminded of the Sabbath. (Exodus 12,16). The Lord made an enlightening statement when the people failed to observe the Sabbath as they should, He said:

"...How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" (Exodus 16:28).

When were these commandments and laws given? Could the how long be in reference to the short time they had been out of Egypt?

This incident is another of the supporting evidences which show that the Ten Commandments were applicable before Sinai and being said about the Sabbath shows that the people while in Egypt should have been observing it.

The people while in Egypt had served other gods and had departed from the commandments of God and this is why the Lord asked how long. (See Joshua 24:14). Moses and others knew, were reminded and were being taught the laws by the Lord but the failure to observe the Sabbath caused the Lord to show a sign to the people:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee forever." ( Exodus 19:9).

Hence the speaking of the Ten Commandments was a sign so the people would listen to Moses. It began with the voice of the trumpet and ended in a similar manner. It was then, "...they removed and stood afar off and they said unto Moses speak thou with us and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die." ( See Exodus 19:17-20; 20:18,19).

It was God who stopped speaking and then the people declared He should speak to Moses and they would hear. Moses, in recounting the incident, writing in the book of Deuteronomy, helps us to understand that it was God who choose not to continue and not the people who stopped Him.

"These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly...with a great voice: and he added no more..." (Deuteronomy 5:22).

It was after God had spoken that they went to Moses and said they would rather He spoke to Moses and they would hear him. (Deuteronomy 5:23-27).

Added - YACAPH (HEB.) - to add or augment, to continue to do a thing.
Added no more - continued (to speak) no more

It was also stated that Moses viewed these Ten Commandments as the Covenant which God declared to the people to perform. This is viewed as a Covenant along with that Covenant made in the land of Moab. (Deuteronomy 4:13; 29:1). (N.B. Horeb is the same as Sinai)

Hence God has clearly separated these commandments for special treatment, which continued as he placed them on two tables of stone, not once but twice and had them put inside the Ark of the Covenant. (Deuteronomy 10:1-5).

The Ten Commandments are the basis of God's Covenant with man and they are a summary of what God expects of us and they can be further summarized to say:

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul , and with all thy might." And, "But thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. I am the Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:1, 5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10).

In keeping all His commandments, we show our love for God. (John 5:3). But a careful analysis of the Ten Commandments show the first four are directed to our showing love to God and the other six are directed to our showing love to our neighbour. This is no mistake, as other commands in the Law are given to explain and expand the Ten so we may know exactly how to obey them. A summary is not expected to be exhaustive but can be comprehensive as it covers broad headings of a subject and this is the nature of the Ten Commandments. Just as we would not know how to love God and our neighbour without further explanation, so too we need to have the Ten Commandments explained and this is expected and does not depreciate the special treatment given to the Ten Commandments by the scriptures.

safswan · May 4, 2019

Endoscopy said:

Jesus And The Ten Commandments

The Lord Jesus as He taught was asked a question, the answer to which also shows the prominence He gave to the Ten Commandments. He was asked:

"Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have Eternal Life?" (Matthew 19:16).

Jesus' answer was:

"...But if thou wilt enter into life keep the Commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Like others, the young man appears to have been aware that there are Six Hundred and Thirteen commands in the Law, so he asked:

"...which?" (Matthew 19:18)

The answer is profound. Unlike the law bashers, Jesus gave prominence to the Ten Commandments and hinted at the temporary state of other commands. Why didn't He say all Six Hundred and Thirteen if there were not portions of the Law which were more important than others? (See Matthew 19:18,19).

Jesus pointed the young man to the Ten Commandments in the answer He gave and unlike others did not say he had to obey the judgements and sacrificial laws.

Jesus also showed that there were commands in the Law which were more important than others:

"Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).

Weightier - BARUS (GRK) - heavy, grave

Unfortunately the person above and many others seem to think tithing is weightier than the Ten Commandments, as they claim to enforce tithing laws while ignoring the Ten Commandments. How convenient, I wonder if the apparent financial considerations influence this practice?

The writings of the prophets also highlight the fact that the sacrificial laws were not as important as other laws.

"And Samuel said, hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offering and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold to obey is better than sacrifice..." (I Samuel 15:22).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; put your burnt offering unto your sacrifices and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers or commanded them..... concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: but this thing commanded I them, saying, obey my voice, and I will be your God.. .and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you." (Jeremiah 7:21-23; See also Hosea 6:6, 7).

The Psalmist in his distress showed that sacrifices were not important to God and also prophesied of the time when the Lord Jesus would by His sacrifice make them redundant. (See Psalm 51:16-17; 40:6-8; Hebrews 10:5-10).

Whereas the sacrificial law was to be replaced, prophecies about Christ's first advent speak of Him magnifying the Law and making it honourable.

Is this the Law which should be in our hearts? How is this to be if it is correct to say,as some claim, "If we observe the Sabbath law, we are also obligated to obey the sacrificial laws." . (See Isaiah 42:1-4,18-21; Matthew 12:15-21; 13:13-15).

They have obviously devised a rule to support their doctrines but a careful study of the scriptures will reveal the truth that all commands do not carry the same weight and the abolishing of one type does not necessarily affect the others.

safswan · May 5, 2019

mailmandan said:

The understanding of the passage leads to a completely different conclusion to the one above.You need to ask yourself;what happened at the cross?What aspects of the old covenant did the actions of the cross supersede?The one and only sacrifice of the Lord caused the sacrifices(including circumcision and the feasts for the same),the temple,the priests to be made redundant.Can you show how the ten commandments were against us?How were they the enmity?

mailmandan said:

And there is no dispute that there is a new covenant.But what does this mean?Are all the laws of the old now made irrelevant?The scriptures do show what is expected in the new.N.B. It was not the ten commandment law which caused death in the old covenant(See Romans 7:7-13) but the system on a whole produced death because the things done to mitigate against sin really did not remove the sin of those concerned as the scripture says:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come and not the very image of the things,can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect....For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins."[Hebrews 10:1-4]

What the new entails:

Paul says it is the carnal person who will not be subject to this law of God:

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”(Romans 8:7)

Are Christians carnal? How can they escape being declared as carnal?

Paul tells how this is done when he says:

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”(Romans 13:8-10)

This clearly points to the ten commandments as being the law which Christians must be subject to in order to escape being carnal.

safswan · May 5, 2019

mailmandan said:

In the following statements we see an example of the roots of the dilemma which has caused many to show disdain for the law of God.Someone wrote:

“John MacArthur holds to a similar view and writes, "Now what was the biggest barrier, the biggest genuine barrier between a Jew and a Gentile? What was it? Basically the ceremonial law, wasn't it? The whole Jewish thing." He goes on to say, "Let me hasten to say this. God has a moral law and God's moral law never changes. Never. It never changes. ..God's moral law was formalized in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20."

So according to Cheung and MacArthur, at very minimum we are under the Ten Commandments. What do you think? You do realize that the command to "keep the Sabbath" is part of the Ten Commandments. So then I guess we are still under the Sabbath law? Do you remember what the penalty was for Sabbath breakers?:”

And they also wrote:

“Most teach that God has done away with the ceremonial and civil aspects of the Law, but not with the moral aspect of the Law. Such a distinction is not drawn anywhere in the Scriptures. The Law is viewed as a unit, or as a whole. James said that anyone who breaks one point of the Law, breaks the whole Law.So what I am saying is that Christ abolished the Mosaic Law, every bit of it. It was given to Israel, not to us and it has been abolished. So what Law are believers under?”

The dilemma of what to do with the Sabbath was one of the major reasons for the rejection of the law of God by some recent theologians. Previously the teaching was:

1) Sunday was the new Sabbath and by observing that day in a manner similar to the Sabbath,the fourth commandment was being upheld.
2)Sunday was the Lord’s day and by observing the same as such the fourth commandment was being upheld.
3)Others viewed the Sabbath as a spiritual rest and by attaining this rest the fourth command was being upheld.

One person of this view wrote:

“We are all told not to eat things offered to idols as that is idol worship, and if anybody thinks that the 10 Commandments no longer apply are deceived !!!”

And he further explains:

“Did you not even look at the list provided to you, as it clearly showed the 4th Command of the Sabbath talked about in Acts 13:14, 42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:1-2, and 18:4. However the clearest understanding of how the Sabbath is observed under the New Covenant is stated in Hebrews:
(Hebrews 4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
(Hebrews 4:3) "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
(Hebrews 4:4) "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
The Sabbath rest is in Jesus now as the Sabbath day rest was a shadow of the true rest to come through Faith in the Lord. We do not get salvation by being obedient to the shadows, we get salvation by remaining in the Faith. Also see Romans 14:5 as it gives insight to this as well that under the New Covenant we no longer have to esteem one day more then another.”

With these types of belief/understanding there could be vigorous preaching and enforcing of the ten commandments as a part of Christian doctrine and practice, without any reservation about the Sabbath. As far as they were concerned,the Sabbath command was being upheld. This was the practice of many esteemed theologians of the recent past and the stance of many orthodox denominations as is shown below:

As William Tyndale wrote:

“….through Christ's purchasing and merits; they begin to love again, and to consent to the law of God, how that it is good and ought so to be, and that God is righteous which made it; and we desire to fulfill the law, even as a sick man desires to be whole, and hunger and thirst after more righteousness, and after more strength, to fulfill the law more perfectly. And in all that they do, or omit and leave undone, they seek God’s honor and his will with meekness, ever condemning the imperfectness of their deeds by the law”

And :

“The general covenant wherein all other are comprehended and included, is this. If we meek ourselves to God to keep all his laws after the example of Christ: then God has bound himself unto us to keep and make good all the mercies promised in Christ, throughout all the scripture. All the whole law which was given to expose our corrupt nature, is comprehended in the ten commandments. And the ten commandments are comprehended in these two: love God and your neighbor. And he that loves his neighbor in God and Christ, fulfills these two, and consequently the ten, and finally all the other ...”

And also:

“Now if any man that submits not himself to keep the commandments, do think that he has any faith in God: the same man’s faith is vain, worldly, damnable, devilish and plain presumption, as it is above said, and is no faith that can justify or be accepted before God. And that is what James means in his Epistle. For how can a man believe says Paul, without a preacher (Rom. 10). Now read all the scripture and see where God sent any to preach mercy to any, save unto them only that repent and turn to God with all their hearts, to keep his commandments. Unto the disobedient that will not turn, is threatened, wrath, vengeance and damnation, according to all the terrible curses and fearful examples of the Bible. Faith now in God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the covenants and appointment made between God and us, is our salvation ...”

The views of the Baptist denomination are similar and they speak positively of the law of God and the ten commandments as being a part of Christian doctrine and practice. Here are some of the statements which affirm this truth:

"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and imperishable rule of His moral government." —Baptist Church Manual.

"The first four commandments set forth man's obligations directly toward God.... The fourth commandment sets forth God's claim on man's time and thought.... Not one of the ten words [commandments] is of merely racial significance.... The Sabbath was established originally [long before Moses] in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam." —Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, Aug. 15, 1937.

“The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.”—1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 19, Section 5

As some men began to see the errors in the interpretations of how the Sabbath is to be observed in the new covenant, the solution to this problem was to denounce the law of God as a whole. The reasoning was; get rid of the law and you get rid of the ten commandments and the Sabbath. They make statements like:

"I am one who claims to keep nine out of ten, and it's because I can find in the New Testament where it clearly tells me that nine of them are commanded for me, as a Christian, to keep. In fact, five of them are spoken by Jesus in Matt 19."

And:

"The Ten Commandments are given no prominence in the scripture…..The Law is a unit and includes the six hundred and thirteen (613) commandments of the Pentateuch."

Their rule of faith is thus stated:

"The instructions to the Church are clear and direct and embodied in the New Testament."

They also say:

“Finally for you Safswan you do realize that Apostle Paul was referring to the 10 Commandments when he called them this............"The ministry of condemnation." ???You don't believe me go read 2 Corinthians 3:3-7 again as Paul said twice the ministry that was WRITTEN ON TABLETS OF STONE was the ministry of condemnation/death.What was written on stone tablets ??? Answer: It was the 10 Commandments.”

And hence some form of morality is proclaimed with nine of the ten commandments being upheld or a ten commandment law is preached with a distorted fourth commandment and at the same time the law is also depreciated as it is called a ministry of condemnation while a principle termed, “the law of Christ” is promoted as being for Christians.

safswan · May 5, 2019

mailmandan said:

Many declare that the ten commandments has served a purpose and is therefore no longer needed. They say:

"The law acted as a mirror revealing the filthiness of the heart and need for cleansing but having seen the filth of sin, the mirror can no longer help us. We must turn from the mirror to a cleansing agent, capable of removing sin. Only Jesus' blood could have accomplished this end."

Or:

“They accused Paul because he taught the laws proper use, which was that it was only to point out sin and lead people to Jesus to be saved (Romans 7, Galatians 3), it was not a requirement to continue to obey to seek eternal life, righteous, or perfection from as the Jews tried to force across.”

The reasoning above denies the obvious. If the law showed, “the filth of sin” and it, “was only to point out sin and lead people to Jesus to be saved”, then after this sin is acknowledged and repented of,should we return to the same? How will a sinner know he needs to repent today? How will those who have repented know if they are not going back to that which they have repented of?

Without the mirror, we would not know of our need to repent and be cleansed. We would not realize what we need to repent of. All sinners need this mirror and those who claim to be cleansed must use it to know if they are truly cleansed. Paul said:

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) and; " I had not known sin but by the law." (Romans 7:7).

And also asked:

“What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?"
He answers: "God forbid." (Romans 6:15).

In other words Paul, unlike those persons quoted above concerning the use of the law, knows the law still retains the function of revealing sin. And if it does then it is a part of Christian doctrine and practice. This is confirmed when Paul declares:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law."(Romans 3:31)

In other words; does being justified by faith without the deeds of the law make the law void, does being saved by grace through faith make the law void?

The answer is,“God forbid”,ie. no.Does the law still serve a purpose?

The answer is yes as it still identifies sin and sinners:

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) and; " I had not known sin but by the law." (Romans 7:7).

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”…..“But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”(I John 3:4; James 2:9)

Paul says it is the carnal person who will not be subject to this law:

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”(Romans 8:7)

Are Christians carnal? How can they escape being declared as carnal?

Paul tells how this is done when he says:

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”(Romans 13:8-10)

This clearly points to the ten commandments as being the law which Christians must be subject to in order to escape being carnal. The older theologians clearly understood this and hence their stance. The problem was their treatment of the Sabbath which has caused the modern theologians to actually throw out the baby with the bathwater. Rather than thinking it was their interpretation of the way the Sabbath was to be observed which was erroneous, the belief was that it was their entire teaching concerning the position of the law in Christianity. But was this a genuine belief or a made up teaching which would see them being still subject to nine of ten commands while still denouncing law in order to eliminate the Sabbath from the ten?Here are some of the bizarre statements:

"We are now led by the spirit of Christ, not by the law,.."

As if the spirit of Christ would be contrary to the ten commandments.

"Secondly the law identifies and exposes but cannot keep us from sin."

It was never God’s intent that the ten commandments should keep us from sinning.Our love for him should be the motivator and failing that in the old covenant then the threat of punishment would do this.

"Even so there are certain principles within the law that are included in the new covenant, because they are consistent with the royal law of love."

And somehow nine of the ten commands qualify but the Sabbath command does not.This is really hypocritical.

".. .many other commandments from all sections of the law are established by our godly life? "

Presumptuous,as it is the law which establishes what is Godly or not.

All of this is done to avoid dealing with the problem of what to do with the Sabbath while still upholding the other nine commandments. While in the past it was clear the ten were inseparable, various theories are now used to eliminate the Sabbath from being a part of Christian doctrine and this has resulted in the convoluted, bizarre and contradictory doctrine we see today.

With this “new” understanding of the law of God the problem of how to treat with the Sabbath was solved, or so they thought. Are we to believe all the eminent persons of the past and the Baptist denomination were “following a perverted gospel”, as they preached and practiced obedience to the law of God and the ten commandments in particular, as some describe those who continue to do the same
today?

safswan · May 5, 2019

mailmandan said:

There are some simple examples in scripture which shows the relevance of the law to the Christian. The case of the woman caught in adultery is a prime one:

The woman was found guilty of breaking the command:

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."[Exodus 20:14]

According to the law she was to have been stoned to death.[Leviticus 20:10;John 8:5]

Grace was exercised and Jesus said; "...Neither do I condemn thee.."[John 8:11]

Jesus did not prescribe any remedy for atonement according to the law.[eg.Leviticus 16:1-34]

However at the end of it all, she was told :

"...go and sin no more. " [John 8:11]

Hence; " Thou shalt not commit adultery", still stands and she is still subject to the law of God even thou she did not have to face the punishment also prescribed by the law. Neither was she asked to partake in any of the ceremonial/sacrificial remedies. Hence one part of the law (the ten commandments)is to be observed while other parts are not prescribed by Jesus.

Paul also supports this in his teaching about the law.He says:

"Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision."(Romans 2:26)

The Law being referred to in Romans 2:26 is clearly the Ten Commandments and the circumcised who breaks the Law is said to be as uncircumcised. (See Romans 2:17-25).

“Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?”(Romans 2:21)

Referring to;”Thou shalt not steal.”

“Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?”(Romans 2:22)

Referring to;”Thou shalt not commit adultery.”,and “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;”

The "righteousness of the Law" therefore must be a reference to the Ten Commandments as this is the law which caused the circumcised to be viewed as uncircumcised when he broke it, (See Romans 2:21-25) and the uncircumcised who obeyed as circumcised. Hence, approval is given to one who keeps a part of the Law. The uncircumcised is accepted if he keeps the righteousness of the law which must be what the circumcised is accused of breaking and which make his circumcision of no value. This teaching shows clearly the error in the theory that;

“The written Law of Moses also called the "Book of the Law" cannot be separated.........”

Jesus and the apostle Paul have all clearly separated them; and who are we to contradict them?

The theologians of the past who exalted the law of God as being essential to Christian life were correct for the most part and if the modern theologians who now oppose them had honestly dealt with the Sabbath issue then this controversy would not exist. The fact is, there is no problem with anyone who advocates the preaching and teaching of nine of the ten commandments.It is the Sabbath command which causes the great invective against the law of God and see men contradicting the scriptures and themselves as they attempt to denounce Gods laws while trying to appear godly to the world. Jesus warned about those who would especially boast in their gifts and miraculous works for God. They need to repent of their erroneous teaching lest they end up in his condition:

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”(Matthew 7:21-23)

Iniquity - anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Strongs Definition
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:

safswan · May 5, 2019

mailmandan said:

This is all you can say to the scriptures used to give a clear explanation as to the identity of the shadows,meat and drink and hence Sabbaths of Colossians 2.I understand,simply no answer to the weight of scripture against your false teaching.

posthuman · May 5, 2019

safswan said:

hi.
curious what you make of this?

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written,
Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,

The just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but,

The man that doeth them shall live in them.

(Galatians 3:10-12)

safswan · May 10, 2019

posthuman said:

Good day.

The following may help.

The Curse of the Law

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”(Galatians 3:10-13)

Many boldly claim, from this passage, that the Law is a curse and all who observe the Ten Commandments are under a curse.Nothing could be further from the truth.This,in fact,is not really a new teaching by Paul but an explanation as to why the Old Covenant was deficient. This was a quote from the Law:

"Cursed be he that conflrmeth not all the words of the Law to do them and all the people shall say, Amen." (Deuteronomy 27:26).

A little research would show what is the true meaning of this passage.The statement by Paul is based upon the agreement or covenant made by the people of Israel just before entering the promised land. They agreed to a curse being upon them if they failed to obey the commands of God. (Deuteronomy 27:11-26). This is the curse of the Law.

Paul was now showing why we all need Christ, both Jew and Gentile, as only He could remove the curse. Once the people had agreed to the curse, and if they had sinned even once, there was no provision in the Law for its removal but there was a promise of the coming one who would be the sacrifice for the sins of all. (See Deuteronomy 27:11- 26; Genesis 3;15; 12:3; 18:18; Galatians 3:8,13-18; Deuteronomy 21:23).

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”(Galatians 3:13)

The curse in the Law could not cancel the promise made to Abraham. Because of Christ our sins can now be removed.

Instead of a curse when we break the Ten Commandment law, instead of sacrifices to cover our sins, we can now have them removed as we have faith in Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf.(See Romans 3:21-26; Galatians 3:22; Hebrews 9:11-15; 10:5-10).

This faith in Christ removes the curse but does not mean we are free from obeying the ten commandment law as some claim. This is God’s grace.Contrary to what they teach, Paul says:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law." (Romans 3:31).

That which is established includes the ten commandments.

And also:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”( Romans 6:1,2)

What is sin?

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”(Romans 7:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”( I John 3:4)

This is a reference to the ten commandment law as still being a guide for the Christian to know what is sin.(See Romans 13:8-10)The entire law is no longer applicable to Christians but that which defines,what is love and identifies,what is sin i.e., the ten commandments is still relevant and not retired.

posthuman · May 10, 2019

safswan said:

Good day.

The following may help.

The Curse of the Law

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”(Galatians 3:10-13)

Many boldly claim, from this passage, that the Law is a curse and all who observe the Ten Commandments are under a curse.Nothing could be further from the truth.This,in fact,is not really a new teaching by Paul but an explanation as to why the Old Covenant was deficient. This was a quote from the Law:

"Cursed be he that conflrmeth not all the words of the Law to do them and all the people shall say, Amen." (Deuteronomy 27:26).

A little research would show what is the true meaning of this passage.The statement by Paul is based upon the agreement or covenant made by the people of Israel just before entering the promised land. They agreed to a curse being upon them if they failed to obey the commands of God. (Deuteronomy 27:11-26). This is the curse of the Law.

Paul was now showing why we all need Christ, both Jew and Gentile, as only He could remove the curse. Once the people had agreed to the curse, and if they had sinned even once, there was no provision in the Law for its removal but there was a promise of the coming one who would be the sacrifice for the sins of all. (See Deuteronomy 27:11- 26; Genesis 3;15; 12:3; 18:18; Galatians 3:8,13-18; Deuteronomy 21:23).

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”(Galatians 3:13)

The curse in the Law could not cancel the promise made to Abraham. Because of Christ our sins can now be removed.

Instead of a curse when we break the Ten Commandment law, instead of sacrifices to cover our sins, we can now have them removed as we have faith in Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf.(See Romans 3:21-26; Galatians 3:22; Hebrews 9:11-15; 10:5-10).

This faith in Christ removes the curse but does not mean we are free from obeying the ten commandment law as some claim. This is God’s grace.Contrary to what they teach, Paul says:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law." (Romans 3:31).

That which is established includes the ten commandments.

And also:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”( Romans 6:1,2)

What is sin?

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”(Romans 7:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”( I John 3:4)

This is a reference to the ten commandment law as still being a guide for the Christian to know what is sin.(See Romans 13:8-10)The entire law is no longer applicable to Christians but that which defines,what is love and identifies,what is sin i.e., the ten commandments is still relevant and not retired.

sure, thanks.

but what about, how it says "the Law is not of faith"

what does this mean?

in another place, it is also written "whatever is not of faith is sin"

what does this mean?

Wall · May 10, 2019

Guojing said:

Nope.

1 CORINTHIANS 1 [2] Unto the CHURCH OF GOD WHICH IS AT CORINTH, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Church of the Corinthians that are called to be Saints

ROMANS 1 [7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Church of the Romans that are called to be Saints

EPHESIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

And again, the Ephesians are the Saints of God

COLOSSIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, [2] TO THE SAINTS and faithful brethren in Christ WHICH ARE AT COLOSSE: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The church of Colossians are the Saints

REVELATION 14 [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [12] HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

Guojing · May 10, 2019

Wall said:

Well, if you understand the mystery that God revealed to Paul in Ephesians 2-3, both Jews and Gentiles are one in the body of Christ, which is the Church. So calling them saints is an extension of that equality.

But after the grace dispensation finished, during the Tribulation, there will also be evangelism going on by the 144,000 so there will also be people accepting Christ during then.

These people will also be considered the Saints, but to be saved during then, your life is much harder since it also depends on you not taking the mark of the beast. Your passages does not imply that there will be no rapture for the Church, who were formed during the grace dispensation.

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