Sabbath

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Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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First Roman's is talking about a sect of believers in the Jewish religion that kept the tradition of the elders,(the law of Moses). These who were trying to command the proselyte among the early assembly to get circumcised were trying to convert them to Jewish Religious beliefs.
This is the dogma of men and not the scriptural truth.

Second Hebrew 4...
How did the Father cease from His work? He rested on Sabbath and set it apart from all the other days. You highlight, "he also has ceased from his own works" but not, "as God did from his"?
Sounds like you're deceived by tradition of men.

As for Galatians it only confirms for me that the Law of the Spirit and life is good for instruction and direction of a believers life.
There are consistently two laws mentioned. The Law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit and life. This is allegorical to the two laws of Israel. One for the foreigner living among you and one for Israel. They are the same Law and as such a foreshadow of the truth of Elohim being revealed through the Messiah.
That is go provide a new heart or renewed heart that seeks after the instruction of Elohim meant for mankind to live-in. We have life through faith and walk by faith. What does it profit anyone to say, "I believe that Messiah died for me" if they never received the word of perseverance? This word is the Law which has become filled up with the life giving spirit thermos upon Messiah so we too may inherit the Kingdom of promise.
Interesting that you would mention being deceived by the tradition of men.

Only by following the tradition of men would one even have the thought that God rested on the Sabbath.

God rested from all His Work and that became HIS REST, or how it is pronounced in Hebrew, sabbath.

It is the tradition of men to try and sort of mimic this Rest on Saturdays in some sort of carnal way and call that "keeping the sabbath"

But as you can see from Hebrews 4 those who enter into rest have ceased from their work as God did from His. God didn't start up His Work again on Sunday and then re-rest the next Saturday. God ceased from His Work. And that is what people do who have entered His Rest. And that is what we are told to labour towards in order to be set apart from unbelievers and share in their reward.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

See? Its because they no longer work at the law. They have come to Christ and have received Rest. They have ceased from their work as God did from His.

A person can't go back to working at the law and simultaneously say they have come to Christ and received Rest. They can only do one or the other. Either be under the curse or be in Christ and under no condemnation.
 

Shamah

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Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."



Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."



Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"
Daniel was speaking of a kingdom. unless you think one of us is a kingdom, this is invalid .
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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Daniel was speaking of a kingdom. unless you think one of us is a kingdom, this is invalid .
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"

" he will speak " he is a leader of a "kingdom"

and "mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH" I hope we are the saints.

Daniel 7:24-25,24 And the ten horns are ten sovereigns (kings) from this reign. They shall rise, and another shall rise after them, and he is different from the first ones, and he humbles three sovereigns,"25 and he speaks words against the Most High, and it wears out the set-apart ones of the Most High, and it intends to change appointed times and law, and they are given into its hand for a time and times and half a time."

the horns are kings..and they speak against Yah and act like they change His Laws...

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

“times” is word #H2166 – zeman, Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) a set time, time, season

H2166 זְמָן zman (zem-awn') n-m., an appointed occasion., [(Aramaic) from H2165], KJV: season, time., Root(s): H2165

H2165 זְמָן zman (zem-awn') n-m., an appointed occasion., [from H2163], KJV: season, time., Root(s): H2163

H2163 זָמַן zaman (zaw-man') v., to fix (a time)., [a primitive root], KJV: appoint.
Psalms 74:4, “Your adversaries have roared In the midst of Your appointments; They have set up their own signs as signs.”

Genesis 1:14, "And the Mighty One said, “Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years.”

Psalm 104:19, "You appointed the moon for setting the appointed times. The sun knows its going down."

“appointed times” is word #H4150 - Original Word: מוֹעֵד, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: moed, Phonetic Spelling: (mo-ade'), Short Definition: meeting, Word Origin from yaad, Definition - appointed time, place, or meeting

Islam and the Koran was created by the RCC. The greek word for "pale horse" should be green (chloros) I believe that is Islam in Revelation. The RCC fits every description.

Revelation 17:4, "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.



Revelation 17:6, "And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Yahshua."

Rome by far killed the most Nazerites/Christians.





Revelation 17:9, "And here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."



Revelation 13:18, "Here is wisdom: Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast; for it is the as number of a man. And his number is 666."



Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"

H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons - “Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.”

Under Constantine the Great Jewish clergy were given the same exemptions as Christian clergy.[1] Constantine, however, supported the separation of the date of Easter from the Jewish Passover (see also Quartodecimanism), stating in his letter after the First Council of Nicaea (which had already decided the matter):

"... it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul ... Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."usebius, Life of Constantine Vol. III Ch. XVIII Life of Constantine (Book III)

Theodoret's Ecclesiastical History records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:

"It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews.” Ecclesiastical History by Theodoret. Book 1 Chapter 9
 

Mazhar

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Dear Sir,
I Mazhar Qureshi Live in Satna (M.P.) age 32 (unmarried) Belong to Muslim Family Education (L.L.B.). My family unavailable to support me because very poor background .I hear Christian religion accept and support by heart to other religion person So, I decided to convert my religion Muslim to Christian religion. So, Kindly I Request you to Please Suggest me what can I do or where I Contact for conversion my religion.
Thank you,

You’s faithfully,

Mazhar Qureshi
Contact no. +919770257118
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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Romans 10:6-8 is a paraphrase of Deut. 30:12-14. The Roman Church was a mixture of Jew and Gentile. The would have been utilizing the Torah because that is the Holy Scripture they had. Paul knew this and knew that when he paraphrased Deuteronomy they would be moved to look it up.

We through Christ went from having to obey that which was written with ink and on tables of stone to being that which was written and intended. As a matter of fact is was always suppose to be about being. This is the Faith of GOD and HIS Christ. This is what GOD has been offering and the stone to which they stumble on.

For Christ (the word in your heart and mouth; the faith in which we speak) is the end of the law (that which was written with ink and on tables of stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law , That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the Law; the word in our hearts and mouths. Which is the Faith in which we speak) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Law; the word in our hearts and mouths. Which is the Faith in which we speak) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (the Christ; the Law in our hearts and mouths. Which is the Faith in which we speak. The circumcision made without hands) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:4-8)

So we do not make void the Law through THE FAITH we establish it. For Christ (the Word in our hearts and mouth; the Faith in which we speak) is the end of the law (that which was written ink and on tables of stone) for righteousness to all that believe.

For the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Deu 30:6 )

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment (to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul) which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word (CHRIST; the commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law) is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
(Deu 30:10-14)
Your wrong, circular reasoning philosophy causes no Rest in Christ and continual condemnation. You don't know it because you don't understand Christ and you don't understand the law.
Christ; GOD's Law; HIS Word in our hearts minds and mouths; the Faith that we preach causes freedom not condemnation.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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Dear Sir,
I Mazhar Qureshi Live in Satna (M.P.) age 32 (unmarried) Belong to Muslim Family Education (L.L.B.). My family unavailable to support me because very poor background .I hear Christian religion accept and support by heart to other religion person So, I decided to convert my religion Muslim to Christian religion. So, Kindly I Request you to Please Suggest me what can I do or where I Contact for conversion my religion.
Thank you,

You’s faithfully,

Mazhar Qureshi
Contact no. +919770257118
Hi my brother. I am praying as I type. Pray my friend. GOD will send one or you will be placed in the midst of of one in HIS name. HE is faithful have faith it will not be easy or it will. GOD is good!
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The oldest manuscripts I have come across are written in Aramaic and come from the first century assembly. I would need to check if the name is mentioned. However important this is it is not as important as walking in sanctification.
well I have to admit that I'm suspicious. I've always heard that the earliest manuscripts are in Greek, just like the originals, and come from the 2nd Century.

but I'm willing to keep an open mind. where are these Aramaic manuscripts kept? What are they called? who has written about them? the Greek manuscripts are all either named or numbered so that Scholars can refer to them.

sometimes in this age of the internet rumors can get started. I was talking to a nice gentleman here on CC who was convinced that there was a Hebrew original of the book of Hebrews kept in a private collection in Israel. but he wouldn't give any details about who's collection or anything like that. sounds suspicious, doesn't it?

but as I said I'm willing to keep an open mind. let's find out some details.
let's explore this together!
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Originally given to our president decades ago from our Arab brothers. These codex are known as the Eastern Aramaic Renewed Covenant writings.
is this what you're talking about?
http://www.hebrewaramaic.org/

it appears to be based on Khabouris Codex which is usually dated to about 1200 ad
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaboris_Codex

now, I'm not by any means saying that Wikipedia is the final Authority. But it is good to carefully research everything, ask lots of questions.

the Aramaic version you talk about, are there actual manuscripts of it that are dated to the first century, or is it based on a tradition from the first century. because of course every new testament version is based on manuscript Traditions from the first century.

Of course sometimes conspiracies are suggested. that is, that virtually all current New Testament scholarship is deceived, and that the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic and included God's personal name.

The Jehovah's Witnesses think something like that. if you look in their New World Translation, in the appendix where it talks about God's name in the New Testament, you can see that they think that what we have today is basically an altered version of the Bible and it's up to them to fix it.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Have not you got on me about the use of His name a number of times? And yes after the pharisees banned the used of His name upon threat of beating, prison or death many did not speak His name any longer, even in Hebrew writings adnoai vowels were used and pronounced rather than YHWH. As for when it is and is not used it is used nearly 7,000 times.

Psalm 45:17, "I will make Your Name to be remembered in all generations! Therefore shall the nations praise You for ever and ever!"

Jeremiah 12:14-17, "This is what YHWH says against all My evil neighbors who touch the inheritance which I have caused My people Israyl to inherit: Behold, I will pluck them up from off their land, and I will pluck up the house of Yahdah from among them. And it will come to pass, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them, and bring them back; everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land. And it will come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to vow by My Name, saying; As surely as YHWH lives--as they once taught My people to vow by Baal (Lord) then they will be established in the midst of My people. But if they do not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, says YHWH."



I dont believe in the 2 creations theory also this shows it was YHWH who created in chapter 1:

Genesis 2:4, “These are the births of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that יהוה Elohim made earth and heavens.”

If YHWH made the heavens and earth then it is Him in chapter 1



I have a number of interlinears in hard copy I understand original language and where YHWH appears, this is to thee same coin but the other side: usage of YHWH when translated into the Koine Greek by the translators of the Septuagint, they knew the language better than any human alive today:

H3068 * יְהֹוָה (yəhōwāh)
yehovah G1203 * δεσπότης (despotēs) despotes
yehovah G2316 * θεός (theos) theos
yehovah G2962 * κύριος (kurios) kurios

SO if you take issue with me rendering theos and kyrios as YHWH, I would ask do you take issue with the translators of the Septuagint rendering YHWH as theos and kyrios

Are you ok with satan being called "theos" here" in Pauls writings?

ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου ἐτύφλωσεν τὰ νοήματα τῶν ἀπίστων εἰς τὸ μὴ αὐγάσαι τὸν φωτισμὸν τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τῆς δόξης τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ.

DO you take issue with my use of YHWH but are ok if I use a term that can be used for YHWH or Satan?



When its not used in Hebrew is different than PLACEHOILDERS that are used in the NT, that is why I pointed out the translation of the Septuagint... The Hebrew Mat is 13th century if I remember correctly, I have the microfilm of the original and 4 translations of it, it is indeed the most original in content, and not a translation as shown by Hebrew word puns that are translated into the Aramaic and Greek but make no sense, in Hebrew they make sense, the historians of that day say Mat wrote it in Hebrew but it is unknown how close our modern Heb Mat is to the original and without someone studying it and the greek and aramaic version they can not even form a true opinion. John and Revelation are not complete and recently discovered and I know little about them but I do have a photocopy of both of them to study them myself. and again YHWH was removed by Rabbinical decree/law, and most bible admit in their preface that they saty with this tradition becacause it is comfortable, what did Yahshua say about rabbinical traditions?
are you sensitive talking about God's name? We can stop, we don't have to continue. but if you wish to continue, please keep reading below

*****************

yes, God's personal name is used just under 7000 times, but that's all in the Old Testament. and it's not consistently throughout the Old Testament.

When God says he's going to make his name known to the nation's, I think he means his reputation, his name in the sense of reputation. think of all the passages where he says he will make his name great. he means he's going to get lots of cred.

And this fits perfectly with what Peter says in I think it is Acts chapter 4, that there is no other name available to humans by which we must be saved except Jesus. that part about being available to humans, or given among men, or under heaven fits well I think with the current situation of our not knowing the vowels of God's personal name or it's exact meaning.

But his reputation, oh yes, we know that! And I love how the first part of God's name is incorporated into Jesus!

and yes I believe in just one creation. So let's call it two sections. in the first section God's personal name is not used. yes it's the same God. but I'm talking about the actual use of God's personal name.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the Septuagint. maybe they made good choices, maybe they didn't. but the New Testament writers were inspired by God. when they quote the Old Testament, they don't use YHWH.

yes I'm okay with Satan being called God. that's what God inspired the New Testament writers to write. God is a title, and yes for many people that title fits when applied to Satan.

that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew is a theory that comes up every now and then. no one knows with absolute certainty. I'm not surprised that there is a 13th century manuscript in Hebrew for Matthew.

the theory is generally based on a line from one of the ancient historians writing in I think the 4th century. that's like 300 years after the original book, so how did he know?

But in the end, that's just one of 27 books.

regarding what the rabbis might have done, I think they would have had very little influence related to the letters of Paul that were circulating in the Gentile world.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Dear Sir,
I Mazhar Qureshi Live in Satna (M.P.) age 32 (unmarried) Belong to Muslim Family Education (L.L.B.). My family unavailable to support me because very poor background .I hear Christian religion accept and support by heart to other religion person So, I decided to convert my religion Muslim to Christian religion. So, Kindly I Request you to Please Suggest me what can I do or where I Contact for conversion my religion.
Thank you,

You’s faithfully,

Mazhar Qureshi
Contact no. +919770257118
Of course! Will a million dollars be enough?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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are you sensitive talking about God's name? We can stop, we don't have to continue. but if you wish to continue, please keep reading below

*****************

yes, God's personal name is used just under 7000 times, but that's all in the Old Testament. and it's not consistently throughout the Old Testament.

1 When God says he's going to make his name known to the nation's, I think he means his reputation, his name in the sense of reputation. think of all the passages where he says he will make his name great. he means he's going to get lots of cred.

2 And this fits perfectly with what Peter says in I think it is Acts chapter 4, that there is no other name available to humans by which we must be saved except Jesus. that part about being available to humans, or given among men, or under heaven fits well I think with the current situation of our not knowing the vowels of God's personal name or it's exact meaning.

3 But his reputation, oh yes, we know that! And I love how the first part of God's name is incorporated into Jesus!

4 and yes I believe in just one creation. So let's call it two sections. in the first section God's personal name is not used. yes it's the same God. but I'm talking about the actual use of God's personal name.

5 I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the Septuagint. maybe they made good choices, maybe they didn't. but the New Testament writers were inspired by God. when they quote the Old Testament, they don't use YHWH.

6 yes I'm okay with Satan being called God. that's what God inspired the New Testament writers to write. God is a title, and yes for many people that title fits when applied to Satan.

7 that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew is a theory that comes up every now and then. no one knows with absolute certainty. I'm not surprised that there is a 13th century manuscript in Hebrew for Matthew.

8 the theory is generally based on a line from one of the ancient historians writing in I think the 4th century. that's like 300 years after the original book, so how did he know?

9 But in the end, that's just one of 27 books.

10 regarding what the rabbis might have done, I think they would have had very little influence related to the letters of Paul that were circulating in the Gentile world.
I believe we have talked about the use of His name a number of times, Im not going to re quote each time but I will reply to the lines you made, im numbering your uote then go accordingly:

1.
Jeremiah 16:19-21, "O YHWH, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles will come to You from the ends of the earth, and will say: Surely our fathers have inherited nothing but lies and vanity of no use at all! Do men make gods for themselves? Yes, but they are powerless! Therefore behold, I will make them to know--this time I will teach them My power and might; and they will know that My Name is YHWH!"

Jeremiah 12:14-17, "This is what YHWH says against all My evil neighbors who touch the inheritance which I have caused My people Israyl to inherit: Behold, I will pluck them up from off their land, and I will pluck up the house of Yahdah from among them. And it will come to pass, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them, and bring them back; everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land. And it will come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to vow by My Name, saying; As surely as YHWH lives--as they once taught My people to vow by Baal (Lord) then they will be established in the midst of My people. But if they do not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, says YHWH."

2.
One I have never said a person is "condemmed" for using Jesus, but the name Jesus DID NOT EXIST when Peter was alive, it was not until the 16th century that the letter "J" was made. and to say that "we dont know the vowels" Hebrew vowels did not exist until sometime from 600ad to 1200ad, and they knew His name just fine for thousands of years. The meaning of His name comes from a root word "hayah" and it means to exist, YHWH means the self existant one, NO OTHER being can claim that the are self existant.
ALso:
Jeremiah 23:5-6, “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall raise for Dawiḏ a Branch of righteousness, and a Sovereign shall reign and act wisely, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness in the earth. In His days Yehuḏah shall be saved, and Yisra’yl dwell safely. And this is His Name whereby He shall be called: ‘יהוה our Righteousness.”​

3.
I would say we are in full agreement here, very beautiful, that is why I love Yahshua/Yahushua so much... YHWH is Salvation!

4.
We agree here.

5.
I agree about the Sept. maybe maybe not about good choices, my point was that it was common to replce YHWH with theos/kyrios, same as we see in the "NT" when speaking of the Father. Also that if the ones who knew hebrew and greek better than anyone on the planet thought those were viable translateble words, I think the same for using YHWH for theos/kyrios. If it is talking about YHWH how could someone have a problem with the use of YHWH for theos/kyrios but not have a prioblem with the use of theos/kyrios for YHWH, aslo theos/kyrios were use for nearly any pagan god of the greeks, they are titles, not "divine" as many scholrs claim, if they were divine Paul would have not use theos for satan right?

6.
we are here, my reasons are as stated above, it is rather a title showning some type of power rather than a word linked to YHWH only.

7&8.
No its not based on one line, its based on many things, Yahshua's teaching, the religious groups of that day, the teaching of the apostles, history, manuscripts, and manuscript deviation, and much more. I have studied this topic for years with all the things mentioned aboive and fact is we were not alive at that time but I dont go in the direction of a doctrine unless it has a lot of evidence pointing in that direction. Im not saying it is the original Matt, but its content is more original than anything we have is the grammar is compared to the aramaic and greek it is not even debatable and yes the people that lived in times post Messoah say Matt wrote His gospel in greek and it was translated into other languages. I take the grammatical evidence as first importance however.

9.
this is true and honeslty there is not major diviation in doctrine but there are serious errors that are not in Hberew version of matt, to me, having spent much of my life seeking truth I enjouy every shred of truth I can get, even if I have to have some times of unertianity.

10.
well you may be and if we look at the surface probably are right about this, however this view does not include Paul's past nor hellenistic influence. and to say that is not important is not true, even if one changes their past experience shapes who they are, sometimes makes you better to go through difficulties, and the hellenistic influence, if this did not exist the Septuagint and the NT would not be in greek. To say exaclty what impact this htad is WAY too much to talk about here, one would need to read a number of hisotry books and study the times and culture and know the Scriptures well to have real insogth. but in the end I would not say it's of 100% vital importance to know truth, but something to further uinderstand the nuiance and details.
 

Grandpa

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Christ; GOD's Law; HIS Word in our hearts minds and mouths; the Faith that we preach causes freedom not condemnation.
Christ is not Gods Law.

Christ is not words in our hearts and mind.

The law is not of faith. Galatians tells us this.

That's what we would call strike one, strike two and strike three. Next batter...
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
Christ is not Gods Law.
GOD'S Law; HIS Word is in our hearts, minds, and mouths through Christ and is of Christ. They part of who He is; Who GOD is. They are what testified of Him. We Can't Have the Word; the Law; the promises of GOD in Deut. 30:12-14 and Romans 10:6-8 in our hearts and mouths unless Christ is there. Faith comes from the heart and is of and from GOD. HE leadeth us to repentance. For it is HE that works in us both to WILL and DO HIS good pleasure.

For GOD has said, HE will circumcise our hearts and the hearts of HIS people. The circumcision made without hands. The circumcision of Christ.
For Christ (the word in our heart and mouth; the faith in which we speak) is the end of the law (that which was written with ink and on tables of stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law , That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the Law; the word in our hearts and mouths. Which is the Faith in which we speak) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Law; the word in our hearts and mouths. Which is the Faith in which we speak) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (the Christ; the Law in our hearts and mouths. Which is the Faith in which we speak. The circumcision made without hands) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:4-8)

So we do not make void the Law through THE FAITH we establish it. For Christ (the Word in our hearts and mouth; the Faith in which we speak) is the end of the law (that which was written ink and on tables of stone) for righteousness to all that believe.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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GOD'S Law; HIS Word is in our hearts, minds, and mouths through Christ and is of Christ. They part of who He is; Who GOD is. They are what testified of Him. We Can't Have the Word; the Law; the promises of GOD in Deut. 30:12-14 and Romans 10:6-8 in our hearts and mouths unless Christ is there. Faith comes from the heart and is of and from GOD. HE leadeth us to repentance. For it is HE that works in us both to WILL and DO HIS good pleasure.
Faith is completely different than law that you can perform. You are purposely convoluting the two for your own legalistic purposes.

I might agree with some of your terms but I already know you define them in a way that is consistent with legalism and is therefore circular reasoning and false.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

People are already told not to be foolish and continue in their carnal understanding of the law (resting on Saturdays).

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But after we come to Christ we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Why??? Because Christ gives us Rest from working at that schoolmaster.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So if Christ is the Law and that is the "word" that is in our hearts and minds then how can any of this ever be said and believed?

Its all lies right? We can't be out from under the law in any way because Christ doesn't give Rest. He puts the law in your heart and mind instead. Right?

Wrong. That is not what happens. That is what legalists wish for and it is what they understand. Because they don't understand Rest and they don't understand law.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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The seventh day will always be unknown to any who are unable to count.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
The new testament clearly has two laws. It must or it would contradict itself.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Paul was either mad or there are two laws. One which is nailed to the cross and another one which is good.