Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[Locutus]

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Well, you did leave out a few verses.

So Jesus came with clouds of armies to destroy Jerusalem, then came again AFTER Jerusalem was destroyed?

No matter I left a few verses out - it is one continuous prophecy/speech.

It was all one "coming" "parousia - presence" (And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?') - no need to separate them.

To....um.....have a resurrection and save the people who were already saved by fleeing Jerusalem before it was surrounded, 3 1/2 years earlier?

You are misunderstanding the resurrection and it's purpose. There was both salvation/redemption and a resurrection of the dead.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The rest of your post is not worth answering it's so filled of eisegesis and personal opinion.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes

verse 30 also say: people Will see Jesus is coming oN the cloud. Is that happen in 1967?

No, yet to happen.[/QUOTE]

You believe 3 1/2 tribulation happen in 70 AD and second 3 1/2 tribulation happen from 70 AD to 1967

Am I correct?

 

[abcdef]

No matter I left a few verses out - it is one continuous prophecy/speech.

It was all one "coming" "parousia - presence" (And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?') - no need to separate them.

I agree

You are misunderstanding the resurrection and it's purpose. There was both salvation/redemption and a resurrection of the dead.

OK, tell me how you see the salvation/redemption and resurrection of 70 ad.

 

[abcdef]

No, yet to happen.

You believe 3 1/2 tribulation happen in 70 AD and second 3 1/2 tribulation happen from 70 AD to 1967

Am I correct?

First 3 1/2 times, .....is from the declaration of the angel in Babylon, Daniel 12:4-7, 7, until 70 ad. when Jerusalem fell and the holy people (Israel) were scattered. Babylon until 70 ad.

Second 3 1/2 times, .....is from 70 ad until 1967, when Israel was restored to control of Jerusalem. This is the time that Jesus called the times of the gentiles (ToG's).

It is the same time period as the statue of the nations in Daniel 2., from Babylon, until Israel is restored to Jerusalem. That would make a complete 7 times.

=============

The time called "trouble", Began when Rome invaded Israel in about 67 bc.

The time of great trouble, "Jacobs trouble", began in full when Israel rejected the gospel kingdom 37 ad., The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad was part of that time of trouble. But it didn't end there, it continued until Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

The mark of the beast is Caesar and Rome. John the Baptist and Jesus would be 2 people who did not receive the mark of Caesar, the beast.

 

[Locutus]

I agree



OK, tell me how you see the salvation/redemption and resurrection of 70 ad.

I'm not sure what you are fishing for here AB.

That said, there is a need to understand the covenant change from the Old to the New.

The promise to Israel of the resurrection was made in the OT, explained in more detail in the NT writings, but not something new.

(Acts 24:15 KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The KJV (and other translations) with its futurist bias obscure the literal Greek in the above:

Act 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

From Young's translation we see that Paul was expecting the "rising" to be imminent - not hundreds of years into his future.

This is my take on why this rising was imminent - it coincided with covenant change, and that the dead at this time were judged according to the Mosaic covenant that all the nations had been aware of.

There is a specific mention of the generation that heard Jesus (that after they were destroyed in the 66-70 AD conflagration that they would be judged according to the Mosaic covenant along with those that lived in that age)

(Mat 12:41 KJV) The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


(Mat 12:42 KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Notice he said this generation - not some generation after, this reinforces Paul's statement of the imminence of the "rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;" in Acts.

After the Old Covenant passed in the 1st century all the nations are judged according to the New Covenant and not the Old that was nigh on to passing when the letter to the Hebrews was written:

(Heb 8:13 KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Jackson123]

First 3 1/2 times, .....is from the declaration of the angel in Babylon, Daniel 12:4-7, 7, until 70 ad. when Jerusalem fell and the holy people (Israel) were scattered. Babylon until 70 ad.

Second 3 1/2 times, .....is from 70 ad until 1967, when Israel was restored to control of Jerusalem. This is the time that Jesus called the times of the gentiles (ToG's).

It is the same time period as the statue of the nations in Daniel 2., from Babylon, until Israel is restored to Jerusalem. That would make a complete 7 times.

=============

The time called "trouble", Began when Rome invaded Israel in about 67 bc.

The time of great trouble, "Jacobs trouble", began in full when Israel rejected the gospel kingdom 37 ad., The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad was part of that time of trouble. But it didn't end there, it continued until Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

The mark of the beast is Caesar and Rome. John the Baptist and Jesus would be 2 people who did not receive the mark of Caesar, the beast.

the bible say imideatlly after Tribulation (according to you 1967) the son of man appear

[h=1]Matthew 24:29-51King James Version (KJV)[/h]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

why after 50 years Jesus not appear on the sky?

 

[abcdef]

the bible say imideatlly after Tribulation (according to you 1967) the son of man appear

Matthew 24:29-51King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

why after 50 years Jesus not appear on the sky?

V 28, talks about the dest of Jeru by the Romans.

V 29, after the tribulation of the dest of Jeru, after 70 ad

V 29, the sun, moon, stars, etc., but HOW LONG is it, that they are dimmed and the stars fall? 1 hour? 10 days? 1000 days? 10,000 days? 1900 years?

The time period of HOW LOng that they remain dimmed is not given.

I'm saying, that after the dest of Jeru., the period of the dimming and stars falling is 1900 years.

That is the period of the times of the gentiles.

After the 1900 yrs (approx), the sign is Israel restored to Jerusalem.

Yes, it has been 50 years since 1967, but the time period between the sign and His resurrection coming is not given.

When ever Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies, this world ends.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When ever Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies, this world ends.

I'm not sure how you arrive at your fabulous conclusions, but I believe you are way off base with your understanding of Scripture. So might want to go back to "a" and start all over again.

 

[abcdef]

I'm not sure how you arrive at your fabulous conclusions, but I believe you are way off base with your understanding of Scripture. So might want to go back to "a" and start all over again.

Many think that at first........

Some run away, and some are not afraid to talk about it.

Which are you?

 

[Jackson123]

V 28, talks about the dest of Jeru by the Romans.

V 29, after the tribulation of the dest of Jeru, after 70 ad

V 29, the sun, moon, stars, etc., but HOW LONG is it, that they are dimmed and the stars fall? 1 hour? 10 days? 1000 days? 10,000 days? 1900 years?

The time period of HOW LOng that they remain dimmed is not given.

I'm saying, that after the dest of Jeru., the period of the dimming and stars falling is 1900 years.

That is the period of the times of the gentiles.

After the 1900 yrs (approx), the sign is Israel restored to Jerusalem.

Yes, it has been 50 years since 1967, but the time period between the sign and His resurrection coming is not given.

When ever Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies, this world ends.

the time is immediatelly after tribulation, do you think 50 years consider immediately?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Many think that at first........

Some run away, and some are not afraid to talk about it.

Which are you?

I think I'll just run away, since it is almost impossible to deal with delusions.

 

[abcdef]

I'm not sure what you are fishing for here AB.

That said, there is a need to understand the covenant change from the Old to the New.

The old covenant died on the cross.

The promise to Israel of the resurrection was made in the OT, explained in more detail in the NT writings, but not something new.

True

(Acts 24:15 KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The KJV (and other translations) with its futurist bias obscure the literal Greek in the above:

Act 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

From Young's translation we see that Paul was expecting the "rising" to be imminent - not hundreds of years into his future.

Yes, they believed that it was, but it turns out that it wasn't that close.

This is my take on why this rising was imminent - it coincided with covenant change, and that the dead at this time were judged according to the Mosaic covenant that all the nations had been aware of.

But at the time that the NT was written the Old Law was already dead at the cross, veil rent Matt 27:51.

There is a specific mention of the generation that heard Jesus (that after they were destroyed in the 66-70 AD conflagration that they would be judged according to the Mosaic covenant along with those that lived in that age)

(Mat 12:41 KJV) The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


(Mat 12:42 KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Notice he said this generation - not some generation after, this reinforces Paul's statement of the imminence of the "rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;" in Acts.

The OT saints rose with Jesus, see how it says that they rise in the judgement, when the generation stands before the final judgement throne.

After the Old Covenant passed in the 1st century all the nations are judged according to the New Covenant and not the Old that was nigh on to passing when the letter to the Hebrews was written:

(Heb 8:13 KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Paul was quoting from Jer 31:31-34, which said that the old covenant was ready to pass away at that time, when God said, a new covenant in Jer.

Paul was quoting Jer to prove that the old covenant had already passed, not that it was going to pass in the future.

When it says, ready to pass, it was speaking of Jer's time not the future of Paul.

===============

So please continue to explain about 70 ad's salvation/redemption/resurrection.

 

[abcdef]

I think I'll just run away, since it is almost impossible to deal with delusions.

Much fear and little faith in what you believe.

You are afraid that you might learn something.

That's OK, just cover your ears, close your eyes, and go la, la, la, la, la, la, la.

And when Jesus asks you about your talents, Matt 25 (Holy Spirit), Just say that you hid them.

 

[abcdef]

the time is immediatelly after tribulation, do you think 50 years consider immediately?

It says that immediately after the trib of the dest of Jeru the sun is darkened, etc., not that Jesus comes.

How long is the period of darkness?

 

[Jackson123]

It says that immediately after the trib of the dest of Jeru the sun is darkened, etc., not that Jesus comes.

How long is the period of darkness?

the list of what immediately happen is from verse 20-30

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are afraid that you might learn something.

I'm just afraid you might UNLEARN some things which you cling to. And that would be a problem for you, since you would have to go back to square one. Never easy.

 

[abcdef]

I'm just afraid you might UNLEARN some things which you cling to. And that would be a problem for you, since you would have to go back to square one. Never easy.

I will discuss the scriptures with you,

But you don't want to.

So just tell Jesus that you were afraid and you hid your knowledge, soul saving knowledge.

 

[abcdef]

the list of what immediately happen is from verse 20-30

The words of what happens immediately after the trib of the dest of Jeru, begins at v 29, where it says "immediately after."

The description of vs 3-28, tell about the dest of Jeru in 70 ad.

 

[abcdef]

I'm just afraid you might UNLEARN some things which you cling to. And that would be a problem for you, since you would have to go back to square one. Never easy.

You are probably just a typical pre tribber that can't support your position anyway.

 

[abcdef]

I'm not sure how you arrive at your fabulous conclusions,

Instead of pleading ignorance, why don't you ask about it?