Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Grammar police:

1Th 1:3; Mk 2:1-5 -- "work produced by faith," not faith itself is a work.
Amen! Faith is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. Works salvationists try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. They don't seem to make a distinction between faith and works that follow as a "result of" faith. In Mark 2:1-5, Jesus saw their faith. We show our faith by our works, but faith in essence is not works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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It was to humble him

I once had a good friend who I have missed very much with the same SN. I have been worried about him, because he served in the Military and was overseas for quite a long time. Lost his email address, and lost contact with him.

Seeing your SN just brought back so many good conversations I had with him.

Welcome to CC, and God bless
 
B

bondservant

Guest
Thank you for the greeting, perhaps we will become close friends as well.......God bless you also
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Works are physical actions, not free gifts (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

Grammar police:

1Th 1:3; Mk 2:1-5 -- "work produced by faith," not faith itself is a work.
Paul calls faith a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Jesus calls faith a work, Mk 2:1-5; Jesus calls believing a work, Jn 6:27-29.
 
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Works are a by product or evidence of Faith. NOW depending on the source of Illumination . the light bearer Satan will tell you its by your we works ye are saved . he is a liar. The Spirit of Christ gives you the strength to perform the Works He has Ordained for you from the Foundation of the World. The salvation He Granted you not based on your physical work , but genuine Faith in His Work at the tree to be sufficient for Justification and Imputed Righteousness. The simplicity of Christ and the corruption of the corrupter!

Faith without works is dead. No one is saved by a dead faith then do works. A NT faith that saves is impossible to have without works. As James points out, one cannot even prove he evens has faith if he has no works.
 
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You compared his dipping to salvation by dipping in water baptism.
I compared:

Naaman's obedient works (dipping) did not earn him God's grace

as my obedient works (belief, repentance, confession, baptism, good works of EPh 2:10) do not earn God's grace either

Therefore it continues to be a straw man to argue that obedient works in doing what God said earns God's grace.

mailmandan said:
Naaman was not saved by grace through dipping. He received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life), after he dipped, yet was not even a believer in God until after he was cleansed. So what condition is attached to saved by grace through _______? in Ephesians 2:8 - FAITH. + what else? - NOT OF WORKS.
Never said Naaman was saved by dipping, but that his WORK did not earn God's fre, gracious healing.

EPh 2:8 saved by faith. It does not say saved by faith only. Faith is a work that includes repentance, confession and baptism:

Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13>3,5------repentance>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Rom 10:9,10---confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved then faith must include repentance confession and baptism for remission of sins.

All the faith ONLY in the world will never save an impenitent person
All the faith ONLY in the world will never save a denier of Christ/will not confess
All the faith ONLY in the world will never save one in his unremitted sins.

mailmandan said:
Your flawed gospel is the result of poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Repentance actually PRECEDES belief/believes in Him/believe the gospel in receiving salvation. You reverse the scriptural order. Belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance/belief/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 16:31).

In the first place, God's gift of cleansing from leprosy was not the gift of eternal life. In the second place, Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" so water baptism does not come before receiving the free gift of salvation, which is in harmony with John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Ephesians 2:8,9. You need to read ALL of scripture and then harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion instead of cherry picking isolated verses taken out of context.

I didn't rewrite anything. I simply read ALL of Mark 16:16 then harmonized it with these other passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) before reaching my conclusion. Naaman was dipped then cleansed from leprosy, not cleansed from sin. Jesus said 9 different times that whoever believes in Him will be saved with NO MENTION OF WATER BAPTISM. You need to re-think Mark 16:16. Peter said whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins and these Gentiles did just that and they also received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being water baptized (Acts 10:43-47). You are up to your old tricks of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
You rewrote Mk 16:16 while ignoring rules of grammar.

He that beleiveth "AND" is baptized shall be saved.

The conjunction "AND" ties belief to baptism making them inseparable, giving them both equal importance to being saved. If one does not have to be baptized to be saved then neither does he have to believe. You consistently ignore the conjunction "and" tearing the verse apart to rewrite in a way that fits your theological bias.
 
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Salvation is a gift from God not earned by works but received by faith through grace. Works are the outward evidence of a saved person
Faith is an obedient work but does not earn grace as Naaman's faith did not earn him God's free gift of gracious healing.


Faith is dead and remains dead until it has works and who can be saved by a dead faith?
Can faith ONLY save an impenitent person?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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you know, their are a lot more stories than naaman in the O.T. just saying.
 
B

BradC

Guest
Faith is an obedient work but does not earn grace as Naaman's faith did not earn him God's free gift of gracious healing.


Faith is dead and remains dead until it has works and who can be saved by a dead faith?
Can faith ONLY save an impenitent person?
Please SeaBass, stop this nonsense! The act of believing upon the work of the cross is a work of faith and salvation and we instantly become alive unto God the moment we believe. The moment we believe more that (60) immutable things take place through divine imputations in the believer's life. How much more action and faith evidence from God do you need to take place to validate our acceptance in the beloved?

Once we have been accepted in the beloved by faith through the cross, God begins a good work in us through the Spirit, The Holy Spirit prepares us and sheds the love of God in our heart to motivate us to walk by faith in every good work. We are to lovingly provoke one another unto these good works and not legislate them as a 'must do'. We are called by God through grace and are led by the Spirit to be a joint participant in those things the church and body of Christ has been called to do as the work of the ministry. Let's allow others the opportunity to get to know God and fellowship with him and let him lead them in those good works they have been ordained by the mercy and grace of God to be a part of.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I compared:

Naaman's obedient works (dipping) did not earn him God's grace
Naaman received cleansing from leprosy, not salvation by grace through dipping.

as my obedient works (belief, repentance, confession, baptism, good works of EPh 2:10) do not earn God's grace either
Mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus (no different than the belief of demons - James 2:19) followed by moral reformation, lip service confession, water baptism and works conjured up through the flesh in an attempt to receive salvation by works is not obedient works, but is a distorted 5 step works based flawed gospel plan of salvation. We have access by FAITH into GRACE (Romans 5:2). Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT because of your biased church doctrine that tickles your ears and feeds your pride.

Therefore it continues to be a straw man to argue that obedient works in doing what God said earns God's grace.
God didn't say saved by grace through water baptism and good works in Ephesians 2:8,9. He said saved through FAITH, not works, but FOR good works, so your works are not obedient works and they do not access God's grace.

Never said Naaman was saved by dipping, but that his WORK did not earn God's fre, gracious healing.
Naaman listened to the man of God and dipped 7 times in the Jordan and was cleansed, but did not receive eternal life from dipping and was not even a believer in God until AFTER the healing had occurred, so you can't compare this with salvation by water baptism. Do we have access by FAITH into grace or by water baptism into grace? - What does ROMANS 5:2 say?

EPh 2:8 saved by faith. It does not say saved by faith only.
It does not say faith and baptism or faith and works, so it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone. You try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and pervert the gospel.

Faith is a work that includes repentance, confession and baptism:
It's saved through faith, not works, not saved through work, not works. Faith is not just another work, hence saved through faith, not works. Repentance and faith are inseparable in salvation and repentance actually "precedes" saving faith in Christ. You reverse the scriptural order! Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 16:16 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the scriptural order. According to you, these verses should read - "believe him and afterwards repent," "believe the gospel and afterwards repent," "faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and afterwards repentance toward God." :eek:

Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Amen!

Lk 13>3,5------repentance>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
That's because repentance is a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Inseparable in receiving salvation. If we have truly repented then we have faith in Christ for salvation and are saved. If we have faith in Christ for salvation then we have already repented. To say that we have repented but we don't have faith in Christ for salvation is an oxymoron. Also, to say that we have faith in Christ for salvation but we never repented is also an oxymoron.

Rom 10:9,10---confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead not as two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. ​*Again, not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together.

1Pet3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Read on - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Since there is just one way to be saved then faith must include repentance confession and baptism for remission of sins.
Repentance is included because it already took place in the process of changing our mind and placing our faith in Christ for salvation. Confession is included because faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Water baptism is not included because it FOLLOWS repentance/faith/confession (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 10:9-10). So mere "mental assent" belief + moral reformation + lip service confession + water baptism does not = salvation. You've been duped.

All the faith ONLY in the world will never save an impenitent person
All the faith ONLY in the world will never save a denier of Christ/will not confess
All the faith ONLY in the world will never save one in his unremitted sins.
You need to get over this faith ONLY obsession. When James said faith ONLY, he was talking about an empty profession of faith, dead faith that ONLY professes to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-24). Genuine faith is not without repentance or confession and why would someone with genuine faith refuse to be water baptized? So genuine believers are not claiming to be saved by faith ONLY "in that sense" but we are saved by the kind of faith that trusts ONLY in Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). All the attempted moral reformation, lip service confession, water baptism and works conjured up through the flesh in the world in a vain attempt to be saved by works will not save you without genuine faith in Christ.

You rewrote Mk 16:16 while ignoring rules of grammar.

He that beleiveth "AND" is baptized shall be saved.
No I did not rewrite Mark 16:16 and I did not ignore the rules of grammar either. You ignored the second half of the verse. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but whoever does not believe" will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief, which is in perfect harmony with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11;25,26 but you completely ignore these verses in which you would have to rewrite to include baptism. Like I said before, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. *No mention of baptized or condemned.

The conjunction "AND" ties belief to baptism making them inseparable, giving them both equal importance to being saved.
False. Stop ignoring the second have of the verse by which Jesus clarifies the first clause.

If one does not have to be baptized to be saved then neither does he have to believe.
False. But whoever does not believe will be condemned. *Baptized or condemned nowhere mentioned. Compare that with John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? NO!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You consistently ignore the conjunction "and" tearing the verse apart to rewrite in a way that fits your theological bias.
You consistently ignore the second half of Mark 16:16 which clarifies the first clause (and also harmonizes with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11;25,26) but you ignore these verses as well and end up distorting Mark 16:16 in a way that fits your theological bias, "baptized or condemned."
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Works are physical actions, not free gifts, as is faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

Grammar police:

1Th 1:3; Mk 2:1-5
-- "work produced by faith," not faith itself is a work.
Paul calls faith a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Jesus calls faith a work, Mk 2:1-5; Jesus calls believing a work, Jn 6:27-29.
Nope. . .

Grammar police: works of faith. . .not faith itself as a work.
 
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Nope. . .

Grammar police: works of faith. . .not faith itself as a work.
"work of faith" the word "faith" modifies, describes the kind/type of "work" Paul is writing about.

A work of faith or a 'faith work'
 
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you know, their are a lot more stories than naaman in the O.T. just saying.

Naaman is just one example of a person who God showed grace to, but that grace required an obedient work to receive and the work did not earn the grace.

The blind man is another example. Jesus spat on the ground making a potion and put in the man's eyes then commanded him to go and wash in the pool. Another example of grace having a condition of obedience yet the obedience does not earn the grace but is part of the grace.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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"work of faith" the word "faith" modifies, describes the kind/type of "work" Paul is writing about.

A work of faith or a 'faith work'
Neither of which defines faith as a work.

In a "faith work," faith is not a noun, it is not the subject of the phrase, it describes the kind of work, it does not define it.
 
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Please SeaBass, stop this nonsense! The act of believing upon the work of the cross is a work of faith and salvation and we instantly become alive unto God the moment we believe. The moment we believe more that (60) immutable things take place through divine imputations in the believer's life. How much more action and faith evidence from God do you need to take place to validate our acceptance in the beloved?

Once we have been accepted in the beloved by faith through the cross, God begins a good work in us through the Spirit, The Holy Spirit prepares us and sheds the love of God in our heart to motivate us to walk by faith in every good work. We are to lovingly provoke one another unto these good works and not legislate them as a 'must do'. We are called by God through grace and are led by the Spirit to be a joint participant in those things the church and body of Christ has been called to do as the work of the ministry. Let's allow others the opportunity to get to know God and fellowship with him and let him lead them in those good works they have been ordained by the mercy and grace of God to be a part of.

No nonsense from me but from those that refuse to understand that God's saving grace comes with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the grace. Others will NEVER know the grace of God by faith only. Faith only is a man made heresy I will continue to refute as opportunity presents itself.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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No nonsense from me but from those that refuse to understand that God's saving grace comes with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the grace.
Others will NEVER know the grace of God by faith only.
Millions do, including myself. . .belying your assertion. . .for faith itself is by grace, no works involved (Eph 2:8-9).
 
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Naaman received cleansing from leprosy, not salvation by grace through dipping.

Mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus (no different than the belief of demons - James 2:19) followed by moral reformation, lip service confession, water baptism and works conjured up through the flesh in an attempt to receive salvation by works is not obedient works, but is a distorted 5 step works based flawed gospel plan of salvation. We have access by FAITH into GRACE (Romans 5:2). Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT because of your biased church doctrine that tickles your ears and feeds your pride.

God didn't say saved by grace through water baptism and good works in Ephesians 2:8,9. He said saved through FAITH, not works, but FOR good works, so your works are not obedient works and they do not access God's grace.

Naaman listened to the man of God and dipped 7 times in the Jordan and was cleansed, but did not receive eternal life from dipping and was not even a believer in God until AFTER the healing had occurred, so you can't compare this with salvation by water baptism. Do we have access by FAITH into grace or by water baptism into grace? - What does ROMANS 5:2 say?

It does not say faith and baptism or faith and works, so it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone. You try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith and pervert the gospel.

It's saved through faith, not works, not saved through work, not works. Faith is not just another work, hence saved through faith, not works. Repentance and faith are inseparable in salvation and repentance actually "precedes" saving faith in Christ. You reverse the scriptural order! Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 16:16 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the scriptural order. According to you, these verses should read - "believe him and afterwards repent," "believe the gospel and afterwards repent," "faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and afterwards repentance toward God." :eek:

Amen!

That's because repentance is a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Inseparable in receiving salvation. If we have truly repented then we have faith in Christ for salvation and are saved. If we have faith in Christ for salvation then we have already repented. To say that we have repented but we don't have faith in Christ for salvation is an oxymoron. Also, to say that we have faith in Christ for salvation but we never repented is also an oxymoron.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead not as two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. ​*Again, not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together.

Read on - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), but the answer of a good conscience toward God (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Repentance is included because it already took place in the process of changing our mind and placing our faith in Christ for salvation. Confession is included because faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Water baptism is not included because it FOLLOWS repentance/faith/confession (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 10:9-10). So mere "mental assent" belief + moral reformation + lip service confession + water baptism does not = salvation. You've been duped.

You need to get over this faith ONLY obsession. When James said faith ONLY, he was talking about an empty profession of faith, dead faith that ONLY professes to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-24). Genuine faith is not without repentance or confession and why would someone with genuine faith refuse to be water baptized? So genuine believers are not claiming to be saved by faith ONLY "in that sense" but we are saved by the kind of faith that trusts ONLY in Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). All the attempted moral reformation, lip service confession, water baptism and works conjured up through the flesh in the world in a vain attempt to be saved by works will not save you without genuine faith in Christ.

No I did not rewrite Mark 16:16 and I did not ignore the rules of grammar either. You ignored the second half of the verse. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but whoever does not believe" will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief, which is in perfect harmony with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11;25,26 but you completely ignore these verses in which you would have to rewrite to include baptism. Like I said before, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. *No mention of baptized or condemned.

False. Stop ignoring the second have of the verse by which Jesus clarifies the first clause.

False. But whoever does not believe will be condemned. *Baptized or condemned nowhere mentioned. Compare that with John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? NO!) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You consistently ignore the second half of Mark 16:16 which clarifies the first clause (and also harmonizes with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11;25,26) but you ignore these verses as well and end up distorting Mark 16:16 in a way that fits your theological bias, "baptized or condemned."

I never said Naaman received salvation by his dipping. Naaman is an example of one having to do an obedient work to receive God's free gracious gift of healing yet that obedient work did not earn him God's grace.
1) Naaman had to first do the work (dipping) before receiving grace (healing)
2) faith only would have left him with his disease and coming short of god's grace.
3) the obedient work earned nothing

The same is true for salvation.
1) one must do the obedient works in belief, repenting confession and submitting to baptism to receive grace (salvation)
2) belief only leaves one short of salvation.
3) the obedient works earned nothing.

---------------------------

As I pointed out the "faith " of Eph 2:8 INCLUDED repentance, confession and baptism, else you are trying to get the impenitent denier of Christ saved while still lost in his unforgiven sins...which is impossible.

-----------------

You still ignore the conjunction "and" and have no valid argument at all here.
 
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Neither of which defines faith as a work.

In a "faith work," faith is not a noun, it is not the subject of the phrase, it describes the kind of work, it does not define it.
If faith is not a work then why did Paul call faith a work? Why would Paul describe the WORK as he was praising those Thessalonians for as "faith"?
 
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Millions do, including myself. . .belying your assertion. . .for faith itself is by grace, no works involved (Eph 2:8-9).

Faith only would have left Naaman short of receiving God's gracious healing and it leaves many short of salvation also.
NO healing before obedient dipping, no salvation for obedience to the gospel.
God will have vengeance upon those that "OBEY NOT" the gospel of Christ.