Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

So you speculate that if Naaman had not obeyed the instructions he would not have been healed.

Naaman's healing is not an example of the necessity of obedience (works) in "salvation by grace,
not by works."

What if Naaman broke his leg on the way and could not obey the instructions, would God have healed him anyway?

I speculate that God would have healed him even though Namaan could not obey the instructions,
because that would have made Naaman powerless, which is what we all are (Ro 8:7-8) before we are saved only by the power and grace of God, nothing else added by us.

2 Kings 5:10 "And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean."

What's to speculate? God's instructions were very clear..."Go and wash in Jordan seven times..... and thou shalt be clean"

It appears the speculation is upon your part. Are you speculating Naaman could ignore, change those instructions of God and be cleansed anyway?

Naaman did not want to follow those instructions of God...."Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage."

And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

Not until he obeyed God's instructions to dip 7 times in Jordan river would he be cleaned.

YOU SPECULATE God would change His mind and instructions He gave to Naaman and Naaman would instruct God that the rivers of Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus are better than the Jordan to dip in. Or Naaman would instruct God there is a better way to heal his disease than dipping in any river. YOU SPECULTE God's instructions mean NOTHING that man can go about and do as he pleases and God will just have to bow to man's instructions.

 

[notuptome]

The washing did not heal Naaman. Believing healed Naaman. His washing simply illustrated for all to see that he believed. It was believing in his heart and trusting the word of the prophet of God that healed him.

An unbelieving heart sees works but a believing heart sees faith at work. To those who perish the preaching of the cross is foolishness. To them that are saved thereby it is the power of God unto salvation.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

God healed Naaman due to his OBEDIENT WORK. His belief would have been DEAD without the work of washing so a belief alone void of washing would have left his disease. All the belief only in the world would never brought his healing by God.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

God healed Naaman due to his OBEDIENT WORK. His belief would have been DEAD without the work of washing so a belief alone void of washing would have left his disease. All the belief only in the world would never brought his healing by God.

He Healed Him because He was Gracious... indeed.. and Merciful.. that is what the Tree and His Appeasement is all about.. not because of our abilities, or our 'works' are salvation... Its because God is Gracious and Merciful! the Cross and Its Power , Christ Crucified, always nullifies the pride of man and his abilities.. its About Grace THru Faith... any 'works' done are done out of the new Man.. as he/she were ordained to do them.. by Christ, the Power Source, Christ, God manifest in the flesh! the spirit is alive because of Righteousness.. the Spirit of Christ living in the Believer.... indeed

 

[SeaBass]

God's grace included and required the obedient work of dipping. Without the obedient work in dipping Naaman would have fallen short of receiving God's grace. A clear example were belief only falls short of the will of God.

2 Kings 5:14 "Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean."

Naaman obeyed FIRST THEN received his gracious free gift of cleansing of his disease

Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

These Romans obeyed FIRST THEN received the free gift of salvation/freed from sins.

 

[notuptome]

God healed Naaman due to his OBEDIENT WORK. His belief would have been DEAD without the work of washing so a belief alone void of washing would have left his disease. All the belief only in the world would never brought his healing by God.

If Naaman did not believe he would not have dipped.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Bowhunter2394]

If Naaman did not believe he would not have dipped.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yep it all comes down to the source of that Faith which Moves the convert to act accordingly! with man its mans source, out of spiritual pride.. with the Genuine Convert, its God as the Source! and their Foundation Christ Crucified, the nullifier of the pride of man... Ye cant DO BETTER than He has already done! indeed! the source of the Illumination for the Genuine convert? the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth, the other source of the Illumination ? earthly, natural, sensual, and devilish, which pulls and feeds the pride of man.. this source.. that Anointed cherub that once covered... but is fallen.. indeed!

 

[SeaBass]

If Naaman did not believe he would not have dipped.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

....and if he had not dipped, he would not have been cleansed. No dipping = no cleansing.



Believe++++++++++dip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cleansed (Naaman)
Believe+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>saved (MK 16:16)

 

[mailmandan]

If Naaman did not believe he would not have dipped.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen Roger! In the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read about it in Luke 5:12-15. No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

 

[SeaBass]

Naaman has never been used as an example of how one can be saved without being water baptized. But Naaman is an illustration of:

1) God's grace being freely offered WITH A CONDITION and working to meet the condition does not, cannot earn God's free grace.
2) one must first work to meet the condition before he can receive the grace

....therefore....

one must first work to meet the conditions (believe and be baptized) to then receive the free gift (saved).

 

[mailmandan]

Naaman has never been used as an example of how one can be saved without being water baptized.

Naaman is not an example of being saved by water or works.

But Naaman is an illustration of:

Naaman is an illustration of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by water or works. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

1) God's grace being freely offered WITH A CONDITION and working to meet the condition does not, cannot earn God's free grace.

Salvation by grace through works is an oxymoron and is an attempt to earn God's free grace. We are saved by grace through FAITH (that is the condition that does not earn God's free grace) but is the instrumental means by which we receive the gift of eternal life. Not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

2) one must first work to meet the condition before he can receive the grace

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Nothing added to "believe in Him."

....therefore....

one must first work to meet the conditions (believe and be baptized) to then receive the free gift (saved).

False. Jesus did not mention these condition(s) plural in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. So in Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Naaman is not an example of being saved by water or works.

Naaman is an illustration of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by water or works. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

Salvation by grace through works is an oxymoron and is an attempt to earn God's free grace. We are saved by grace through FAITH (that is the condition that does not earn God's free grace) but is the instrumental means by which we receive the gift of eternal life. Not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Nothing added to "believe in Him."

False. Jesus did not mention these condition(s) plural in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. So in Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

excellent!

 

[newlife7]

True faith causes us to do good works, if we were saved by faith and works we would have reason to boast which we do not.

 

[SeaBass]

Naaman is not an example of being saved by water or works.

I never suggested he was.

Naaman is an illustration of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by water or works. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

Salvation by grace through works is an oxymoron and is an attempt to earn God's free grace. We are saved by grace through FAITH (that is the condition that does not earn God's free grace) but is the instrumental means by which we receive the gift of eternal life. Not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Nothing added to "believe in Him."

False. Jesus did not mention these condition(s) plural in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. So in Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Naaman is a clear example of God's grace with a condition attached of dipping, yet the work of dipping did not earn Naaman God's grace. Likewise, obedient works as belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism are conditions attached to God's grace that do not earn God's grace.

Secondly, there is refusal to see that Naaman had to FIRST do the obedient work of dipping in order to receive God's free gift of cleansing. Just as Mk 16:16 puts the conditional works of believing and being baptized BEFORE receiving the free gift of salvation.

You are up to your old habit of rewriting Mk 16:16. Naaman was not first cleansed then dipped no more than Jesus said he is saved then baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

True faith causes us to do good works, if we were saved by faith and works we would have reason to boast which we do not.

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Forgive the interruption here....... Sebastian, just out of curiosity, what kind of songs do you all at the CoC listen to? i'm really interested in hearing some of the hymns for sure, one thing we may have in common through Christ Jesus

Ephesians 5:19-21
19addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

 

[Elin]

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5

Works are physical actions, not free gifts (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

Grammar police:

1Th 1:3; Mk 2:1-5 -- "work produced by faith," not faith itself is a work.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5

Works are a by product or evidence of Faith. NOW depending on the source of Illumination . the light bearer Satan will tell you its by your we works ye are saved . he is a liar. The Spirit of Christ gives you the strength to perform the Works He has Ordained for you from the Foundation of the World. The salvation He Granted you not based on your physical work , but genuine Faith in His Work at the tree to be sufficient for Justification and Imputed Righteousness. The simplicity of Christ and the corruption of the corrupter!

 

[mailmandan]

I never suggested he was.

You compared his dipping to salvation by dipping in water baptism.

Naaman is a clear example of God's grace with a condition attached of dipping, yet the work of dipping did not earn Naaman God's grace.

Naaman was not saved by grace through dipping. He received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life), after he dipped, yet was not even a believer in God until after he was cleansed. So what condition is attached to saved by grace through _______? in Ephesians 2:8 - FAITH. + what else? - NOT OF WORKS.

Likewise, obedient works as belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism are conditions attached to God's grace that do not earn God's grace.

Your flawed gospel is the result of poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Repentance actually PRECEDES belief/believes in Him/believe the gospel in receiving salvation. You reverse the scriptural order. Belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance/belief/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 16:31).

Secondly, there is refusal to see that Naaman had to FIRST do the obedient work of dipping in order to receive God's free gift of cleansing. Just as Mk 16:16 puts the conditional works of believing and being baptized BEFORE receiving the free gift of salvation.

In the first place, God's gift of cleansing from leprosy was not the gift of eternal life. In the second place, Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" so water baptism does not come before receiving the free gift of salvation, which is in harmony with John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Ephesians 2:8,9. You need to read ALL of scripture and then harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion instead of cherry picking isolated verses taken out of context.

You are up to your old habit of rewriting Mk 16:16. Naaman was not first cleansed then dipped no more than Jesus said he is saved then baptized.

I didn't rewrite anything. I simply read ALL of Mark 16:16 then harmonized it with these other passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) before reaching my conclusion. Naaman was dipped then cleansed from leprosy, not cleansed from sin. Jesus said 9 different times that whoever believes in Him will be saved with NO MENTION OF WATER BAPTISM. You need to re-think Mark 16:16. Peter said whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins and these Gentiles did just that and they also received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being water baptized (Acts 10:43-47). You are up to your old tricks of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

 

[bondservant]

Salvation is a gift from God not earned by works but received by faith through grace. Works are the outward evidence of a saved person