Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[mailmandan]

I never said Naaman received salvation by his dipping. Naaman is an example of one having to do an obedient work to receive God's free gracious gift of healing yet that obedient work did not earn him God's grace.
1) Naaman had to first do the work (dipping) before receiving grace (healing)
2) faith only would have left him with his disease and coming short of god's grace.
3) the obedient work earned nothing

The same is true for salvation.
1) one must do the obedient works in belief, repenting confession and submitting to baptism to receive grace (salvation)
2) belief only leaves one short of salvation.
3) the obedient works earned nothing.

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As I pointed out the "faith " of Eph 2:8 INCLUDED repentance, confession and baptism, else you are trying to get the impenitent denier of Christ saved while still lost in his unforgiven sins...which is impossible.

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You still ignore the conjunction "and" and have no valid argument at all here.

I already gave a thorough refutation of your arguments above in post #4511. Go back and read that post again and prayerfully consider the truth.

 

[Elin]

No nonsense from me but from those that refuse to understand that God's saving grace comes with conditions and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the grace.
Others will NEVER know the grace of God by faith only.

Millions do, including myself. . .belying your assertion. . .for faith itself is by grace, no works involved (Eph 2:8-9).

Faith only would have left Naaman short of receiving God's gracious healing and it leaves many short of salvation also.
NO healing before obedient dipping, no salvation for obedience to the gospel.
God will have vengeance upon those that "OBEY NOT" the gospel of Christ.

Which we find in Mk 1:15. . .note what the obedience consists of,
and the lack of which brings vengeance (Jn 3:18, 36).

 

[mailmandan]

Which we find in Mk 1:15. . .note what the obedience consists of, and the lack of which brings vengeance (Jn 3:18, 36).

Amen! In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all those who trust exclusively in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16).

 

[bondservant]

Naaman is just one example of a person who God showed grace to, but that grace required an obedient work to receive and the work did not earn the grace.

The blind man is another example. Jesus spat on the ground making a potion and put in the man's eyes then commanded him to go and wash in the pool. Another example of grace having a condition of obedience yet the obedience does not earn the grace but is part of the grace.

I think that you missed the point in th story. Naaman was not healed by his faith he was humbled by God. He thought he would be treated special because of who and what he was. He was angry for what he was told to do. How embarrassing to dip into the dirtiest river, let alone the prophet sent a servant to tell him and not have the time of day for himself to tell Andaman.

 

[SeaBass]

I think that you missed the point in th story. Naaman was not healed by his faith he was humbled by God. He thought he would be treated special because of who and what he was. He was angry for what he was told to do. How embarrassing to dip into the dirtiest river, let alone the prophet sent a servant to tell him and not have the time of day for himself to tell Andaman.

Would Naaman have received God's gracious, free healing had he not done the obedient work of dipping?

 

[SeaBass]

Which we find in Mk 1:15. . .note what the obedience consists of,
and the lack of which brings vengeance (Jn 3:18, 36).

Jesus did not say "repent ye and believe only" in Mk 1:15.

Jn 8:24-----------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3,5---------repentance>>>>>>>>>saves (not perish)
Mt 10:32,33------confession>>>>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then NT belief must include repentance, confession and baptism.

2 Thess 1:89 God has vengeance upon those that OBEY not the gospel of Christ. The implication is the gospel must be OBEYED to be saved. Faith only is not obedience to the gospel.

 

[SeaBass]

I already gave a thorough refutation of your arguments above in post #4511. Go back and read that post again and prayerfully consider the truth.

You have not refuted anything but continually abuse grammar and rewrite verses to force them to fit your bias.

How many times has it been said that the conjunction "and" in Mk 16:16 ties belief to baptism making them inseparable yet you continue to separate them over and over and over and over again for you have to in order to avoid the force of the meaning of the verse that salvation requires BOTH belief and baptism?

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus did not say "repent ye and believe only" in Mk 1:15.

Jn 8:24-----------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3,5---------repentance>>>>>>>>>saves (not perish)
Mt 10:32,33------confession>>>>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then NT belief must include repentance, confession and baptism.

2 Thess 1:89 God has vengeance upon those that OBEY not the gospel of Christ. The implication is the gospel must be OBEYED to be saved. Faith only is not obedience to the gospel.

Your broken record arguments above have already been thoroughly refuted in post #4511 and post #4523. Give it a rest. You are not fooling anyone except yourself and other unbelievers.

 

[mailmandan]

You have not refuted anything but continually abuse grammar and rewrite verses to force them to fit your bias.

I certainly have thoroughly refuted your broken records argument in which you ignore the second half of Mark 16:16 and John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,49,47; 11:25,26 all together in order to force Mark 16:16 to fit your bias.

How many times has it been said that the conjunction "and" in Mk 16:16 ties belief to baptism making them inseparable yet you continue to separate them over and over and over and over again for you have to in order to avoid the force of the meaning of the verse that salvation requires BOTH belief and baptism?

Once again, you ignored the second half of the verse. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but whoever does not believe" will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief, which is in perfect harmony with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11;25,26 but you completely ignore these verses in which you would have to rewrite in order to include baptism. Like I said before, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. *No mention of baptized or condemned. Your mere "mental assent" belief does not qualify, so you should be more concerned about the second half of Mark 16:16. Baptism apart from saving belief in Christ avails nothing.

 

[bondservant]

I think this is where a lot of saints go off the path, by trying to see what pulls the trigger with God. Faith, obedience, prayer, fasting, etc. The story of naaman was he thought himself higher in statue because of his accomplishments. He knew the God of Israel could heal him but he thought he deserved it as far as I see. God in his grace ment him at the river and healed him but it wasn't out of obedience God kept his word as naaman got humbled. If you truly have a heart for God saint let us try to except God as he is, he doesn't have to heal, forgive, love ,save but he chooses to do so. I praise him and fear him. We are saved by grace through faith not of our own. God loved me before I knew him. We are all predestined. What a mystery.

 

[KenAllan]

What about a person who is in a burning building. He see's no way out, he is trapped in the building and he knows he will die. This person remembers what his Grandmother told him that Jesus Christ is God and he accepts Jesus Christ into his heart and believes Jesus Christ is God and confesses with his mouth that Jesus Christ is God. Then he dies in the flames.

Has this person received Salvation and will he enter into Heaven? Or will this person be cast into the Lake of Fire because he was not Baptized?

What do you say SeaBass?

 

[mwc68]

For one to become a Christian one must receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is nothing else required to become a Christian. In fact Jesus did everything required for the believer to become a Christian. Gods grace is wholly, completely and eternally sufficient to save every soul that comes to Christ.

Your problem remains that you cannot distinguish between what is required to become saved and what the expected result is of said salvation. You are trying unsuccessfully to make the result the causation.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to satisfy God. Christ did everything God demanded. You can receive salvation as a gift or your can reject it and attempt to force God to accept your concept of salvation. How did that work out for Cain and Abel?

1 Corinthians God said that He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. To those that believe it is the power of God unto salvation to those that perish it is foolishness.

It is expected that anyone professing to know Jesus Christ as Savior will live according to what the bible teaches. No one however has any business telling him if he's doing it the way they think he should or not. Each one must give account to Christ for what they have done since salvation. Give account to Christ not to other "Christians".

Works follow salvation. They cannot precede salvation nor do they have any merit towards salvation. Grace alone is sufficient or we are all lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you sure like to tell me I'm not doing it your way!! Can you say contradiction?

 

[notuptome]

you sure like to tell me I'm not doing it your way!! Can you say contradiction?

My way as you put it means nothing. Its Gods way or the hot way. There is no end to purgatory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MikeHenderson]

I thought mwc68 you were leaving and now i find you here.

Mwc68 if we contradict Satan does it mean were telling him he is not doing it OUR way?

What you fail to understand and realize mwc68 is that God is Supreme, God is in Charge and only God has the Truth. Why are you Roman Catholics so desperate to place yourself and The corrupted Roman Catholic Church above God?

When will you realize mwc68 its NOT your way! Its God's way!

Its what the Holy Spirit says that is the only way! Where did you get the Authority to contradict what the Holy Spirit says mwc68? For you definitely did NOT receive any Authority from God to contradict what the Holy Spirit says!

Many a time I have shown you the Truth from the Holy Spirit and many a time you have trampled on the Word of God and tossed it away. Its sad to see you so bitter towards God and His Truths. What did God ever do to you that deserves what you have done to His Children and His Truth in the Scriptures?

 

[valiant]

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.


Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff


It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.



A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?



So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

even the dying thief had to climb down from his cross and clean the soldiers' boots. Or have I got that wrong?

 

[SeaBass]

even the dying thief had to climb down from his cross and clean the soldiers' boots. Or have I got that wrong?

You would have that wrong.

The thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation, Heb 9:16,17; Rom 10:9; Rom 6:3,4.

 

[notuptome]

You would have that wrong.

The thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation, Heb 9:16,17; Rom 10:9; Rom 6:3,4.

God saves in the NT and the OT by the same means. It is a red herring to make salvation different in the NT verses the OT.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KenAllan]

What SeaBass does not understand is we do works not to receive or keep our Salvation, we do works because of our FAITH!

No one can work for his Salvation and no one can do "works" to keep his salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Salvation is a Gift from God. We do not work for a gift and we do not work to keep a gift.

Its true God said if we have Faith we also have works. But Faith does not come from works. Faith comes from believing in Jesus Christ!

We do not and can not work for our Salvation. But we can backslide back into the World if we become lazy. It is possible to lose ones Salvation but i would not advise it. To lose one's Salvation you need to lose your Faith that Jesus Christ is God.

If you have done this then its over for you. How can you regain your Faith? You cannot! Once you have lost your Salvation you can never receive it again.

 

[SeaBass]

God saves in the NT and the OT by the same means. It is a red herring to make salvation different in the NT verses the OT.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No, laws under the OT are different than laws under the NT. Those under the OT had to offer animal sacrifices for their sins for they did not have the blood of Christ as we do today. The one thing that is similar under both laws is God will save those that have a faithful obedience to the law which they live under.

 

[SeaBass]

What SeaBass does not understand is we do works not to receive or keep our Salvation, we do works because of our FAITH!

No one can work for his Salvation and no one can do "works" to keep his salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Salvation is a Gift from God. We do not work for a gift and we do not work to keep a gift.

Its true God said if we have Faith we also have works. But Faith does not come from works. Faith comes from believing in Jesus Christ!

We do not and can not work for our Salvation. But we can backslide back into the World if we become lazy. It is possible to lose ones Salvation but i would not advise it. To lose one's Salvation you need to lose your Faith that Jesus Christ is God.

If you have done this then its over for you. How can you regain your Faith? You cannot! Once you have lost your Salvation you can never receive it again.

Hi.

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5.

Note the order of events in Rom 6:17,18:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then being freed from sins/justified

See how Paul put obedient works BEFORE justification?

Paul------------obey form the heart>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
James--------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify (James 2:24)

In Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve one of two masters. You either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience UNTO righteousness

I serve # 1. Which master do you serve?



In Eph 2:9 the "not of works" refers to works of merit and not obedient works in obeying God's will.


I agree that salvation is a free gift but free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift.

If you have time, check out pages 5 and 6 of the thread in the link below about getting a free hamburger but having to work to meet the conditions to get that free hamburger [begin with post #92]:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...l-people-saved-since-read-titus-2-11-a-5.html