Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[MikeHenderson]

1 Thessalonians 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father

It seems SeaBass you have no problem with quoting only the part of Scriptures you want us to see. Look carefully at this verse for it also says LABOR OF LOVE. The work we do BECAUSE we have Faith IS a labor of Love!

We do not labor doing "works" because its demanded like you teach. We DO Works because of the Love we have for Jesus Christ who died for us!

What you are teaching is nothing new, in fact what you teach follows what the corrupted Roman Catholic Church teaches.

We are to do "Works of Love" to show our Love For Jesus Christ because He died for our sins and has given us Salvation!

We obey not because its demanded, we obey out of Love.

Again you miss the point.

But doing Works is NOT what God wants or demands us to do!

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Doing the Will of the Father is what Jesus is telling us what to do. If you do "works" because you think its demanded buy yet refuse to do the Will of the Father you cannot enter into Heaven.

Look through the Scriptures at all the places the Will of the Father is spoken.

SeaBass its not about Working for something, its all about doing it for the Love of God that we do what He wants.

 

[oldthennew]

SeaBass its not about Working for something, its all about doing it for the Love of God that we do what He wants.
=
working=doing=living the Word=doing the Word...in LOVE.....

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Jesus did not say "repent ye and believe only" in Mk 1:15.

Jn 8:24-----------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3,5---------repentance>>>>>>>>>saves (not perish)
Mt 10:32,33------confession>>>>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then NT belief must include repentance, confession and baptism.

2 Thess 1:89 God has vengeance upon those that OBEY not the gospel of Christ. The implication is the gospel must be OBEYED to be saved. Faith only is not obedience to the gospel.

Luke 5:31,32
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7
7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hosea 6:6
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

[bondservant]

Sea bass be careful about the law, the law is the same in both the new and old. Jesus came to fulfil the law, sermon on the mount. Not to change but to fulfill.

 

[MikeHenderson]

Also SeaBass the Thief on the cross never was Baptized and entered into Paradise with Jesus. I know what you will say before you say it. You will claim this was still under the O.T.

The N.T. started when Jesus Died on the Cross you will say, therefore the Thief had to be under the O.T.

If you look carefully in the Scriptures you will see that Jesus died before the Thief died.

John 19:31-33
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

Jesus was already dead when the others will still alive. Which means SeaBass the Thief died AFTER Jesus which means he did go to Heaven without being Baptized! This proves that what you are teaching that Baptism is mandatory is wrong.

SeaBass you really need to study the Scriptures before you open up your mouth and shove your foot into it.

God does want us to be Baptized but its not mandatory for entering into Heaven!

 

[SeaBass]

1 Thessalonians 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father

It seems SeaBass you have no problem with quoting only the part of Scriptures you want us to see. Look carefully at this verse for it also says LABOR OF LOVE. The work we do BECAUSE we have Faith IS a labor of Love!

We do not labor doing "works" because its demanded like you teach. We DO Works because of the Love we have for Jesus Christ who died for us!

What you are teaching is nothing new, in fact what you teach follows what the corrupted Roman Catholic Church teaches.

We are to do "Works of Love" to show our Love For Jesus Christ because He died for our sins and has given us Salvation!

We obey not because its demanded, we obey out of Love.

Again you miss the point.

But doing Works is NOT what God wants or demands us to do!

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Doing the Will of the Father is what Jesus is telling us what to do. If you do "works" because you think its demanded buy yet refuse to do the Will of the Father you cannot enter into Heaven.

Look through the Scriptures at all the places the Will of the Father is spoken.

SeaBass its not about Working for something, its all about doing it for the Love of God that we do what He wants.

Faith is a work!! It's dead if it's not.

Paul said "work of faith" with the word 'faith' describing the type of work. In Mk 2:1-5 men removed part of the roof of a house to lower a sick man down to Jesus and v5 says "Jesus saw their faith" What Jesus saw that is called 'faith' is the work these men had done.


Ironically you posted "But doing Works is NOT what God wants or demands us to do!" But then you post Mt 7:21 that says those that DOETH the will of the Father are the ones that will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

It is God's will that men obey His will in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass its not about Working for something, its all about doing it for the Love of God that we do what He wants.
=
working=doing=living the Word=doing the Word...in LOVE.....

Jesus said "if ye love Me keep my commandments....He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." Jn 14

One cannot have love for Christ without obedient works in keeping Christ's commands much less be saved without doing those obedient works.

 

[SeaBass]

Luke 5:31,32
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7
7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hosea 6:6
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

I do not see how these verses relate to my post.

 

[SeaBass]

Sea bass be careful about the law, the law is the same in both the new and old. Jesus came to fulfil the law, sermon on the mount. Not to change but to fulfill.

The OT law is totally different from the NT law. A main difference is the OT law was based upon the blood of bulls and goats while the NT law is based upon the blood of Christ.

When Christ died on the cross He took away the OT law replacing it with His NT law, Col 2:14: Heb 10:9; Eph 2:15. When Christ fulfilled the OT law then it ceased. Fulfill means to being to an end, to cease, as when you fulfill an agreement then it ceases/ends and you're no longer bound to it. In Rom 7:1-7 Paul makes an analogy about it being sinful for a Christian to try and keep both the OT law and the NT law at the same time like a woman trying to keep two husbands at the same times.

 

[notuptome]

The OT law is totally different from the NT law. A main difference is the OT law was based upon the blood of bulls and goats while the NT law is based upon the blood of Christ.

When Christ died on the cross He took away the OT law replacing it with His NT law, Col 2:14: Heb 10:9; Eph 2:15. When Christ fulfilled the OT law then it ceased. Fulfill means to being to an end, to cease, as when you fulfill an agreement then it ceases/ends and you're no longer bound to it. In Rom 7:1-7 Paul makes an analogy about it being sinful for a Christian to try and keep both the OT law and the NT law at the same time like a woman trying to keep two husbands at the same times.

You cannot even define the terms you use without bias.

When you fulfill a promise to your wife to be faithful does that end the agreement and you are no longer bound to keep it?

Your continuing rejection of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit frustrates your ability to comprehend Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Also SeaBass the Thief on the cross never was Baptized and entered into Paradise with Jesus. I know what you will say before you say it. You will claim this was still under the O.T.

The N.T. started when Jesus Died on the Cross you will say, therefore the Thief had to be under the O.T.

If you look carefully in the Scriptures you will see that Jesus died before the Thief died.

John 19:31-33
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

Jesus was already dead when the others will still alive. Which means SeaBass the Thief died AFTER Jesus which means he did go to Heaven without being Baptized! This proves that what you are teaching that Baptism is mandatory is wrong.

SeaBass you really need to study the Scriptures before you open up your mouth and shove your foot into it.

God does want us to be Baptized but its not mandatory for entering into Heaven!

1)
what proof can you provide the thief was NEVER baptized? How do you know with certainty he was not of all those in Mk 1:5 that was baptized of John?

2)
Heb 9:16,17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Christ being the Testator of the NT would have to doe first before His New Testament could be in force. When Christ promised the theif he would be in paradise, Christ and the thief were both still alive and under the OT law. So the thief is not an example of NT salvation therefore not accountable to Mk 16;16; Acts 2:38.

3)
Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

NT belief requires one to believe God "hath raised" Christ from the dead. The thief could not have this type of belief for Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead.

Rom 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

NT baptism is a baptism where one is baptized into the death of Christ. Again, Christ had not died so there was no way the thief could be baptized with this NT baptism.

4)
You posted "Jesus was already dead when the others will still alive. Which means SeaBass the Thief died AFTER Jesus which means he did go to Heaven without being Baptized! This proves that what you are teaching that Baptism is mandatory is wrong."

It does not matter if Christ died before the thief because BOTH were ALIVE and under the OT law at the time Jesus promised the thief paradise.
Secondly, Christ's NT law would not come into effect immediately at His death but go through a period of 'probation' as wills do. Lk 24:47 is Luke's account of Christ's great commission. But note this commission would not come into effect until several weeks/months later "beginning at Jerusalem" in Acts 2 at Pentecost with Peter preaching the first recorded gospel sermon.

I assure you my foot is not in my mouth according to the biblical facts I presented you above.

 

[SeaBass]

You cannot even define the terms you use without bias.

When you fulfill a promise to your wife to be faithful does that end the agreement and you are no longer bound to keep it?

Your continuing rejection of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit frustrates your ability to comprehend Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Fulfill means to "To meet (a requirement or condition); satisfy."

When one fulfills, satisfies an agreement then that agreement has ended, ceases. Christ fulfilled and brought the OT to and end so he may replace it with His NT law.."He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" Heb 10:9. Heb 7:12 "... there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

Rom 7:1-7 it would be sinful for one who is married to Christ and His NT gospel to try and keep both the OT law and Christ's NT gospel at the same time......Gal 1:6-7 Paul said some of those in Galatia were REMOVED from the gospel for going back to the OT law thinking they could be justified by the OT law on circumcision.


How can you claim to have an indwelling of the HS yet so steeped in error?

 

[KenAllan]

So then SeaBass you do believe the Thief on the Cross did enter into Heaven even though he was not Baptized. If Baptism was MANDATORY like you teach they why did Jesus say this person would be with Him?

You are doing nothing new SeaBass. There have been many unbelievers before you who have done the same thing. God came to set us free but people like you want to put us back in bondage!

Doing the Will of the Father is NOT works! We do the Will of the Father because we LOVE God, not because its MANDATORY to do the Will of the Father.

The point you are missing is you are doing the will of your father Satan, not the Will of our Father , God!

Romans 10:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Where does it say in this verse that Salvation is based of doing works for your Salvation?

Romans 10:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

All we have to do is call on His name!

Ephesians 2:5-9
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Its by GRACE we have been saved not by WORKS!

The whole point is once you have received Salvation you cannot lose it because we received Salvation by GRACE! How can you lose Grace? You cannot lose it like SeaBass says.

Listen to what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures, listen to what the Holy Spirit says in your Heart. Do not listen to the worldly people who want to put you back in bondage!

Galatians 2:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
[SUP]5 [/SUP] to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Even back in the days of Paul there were people teaching "Works" above Grace!

 

[SeaBass]

So then SeaBass you do believe the Thief on the Cross did enter into Heaven even though he was not Baptized. If Baptism was MANDATORY like you teach they why did Jesus say this person would be with Him?

The bble does not say if the thief had ever been baptized or not. It does not matter though for he is not an example of NT salvation, he was not accountable to Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 as we today are.

You are doing nothing new SeaBass. There have been many unbelievers before you who have done the same thing. God came to set us free but people like you want to put us back in bondage!

Doing no works leaves on in bondage to sin.

Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve one of two masters, do you serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

Are you a servant to unrighteousness or a servant to righteousness?

"Doing the Will of the Father is NOT works! We do the Will of the Father because we LOVE God, not because its MANDATORY to do the Will of the Father.

How can one be "DOING" God's will yet not DOING works? If one is DOING then he is working DOING some thing.

You say it's "not MANDATORY to do the will of the Father"
You're way off the biblical course with that statement. it not mandatory to obey GOD??????????? It was not mandatory Noah build the ark? Not mandatory Abraham offer Isaac? Not mandatory one obey the gospel?? One can just ignore God's commands?>

The point you are missing is you are doing the will of your father Satan, not the Will of our Father , God!

Romans 10:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Where does it say in this verse that Salvation is based of doing works for your Salvation?

Romans 10:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

All we have to do is call on His name!

Is it God's will men call on His name? If so, you already said that doing God's will is not mandatory so calling on God's name is not mandatory.

In Acts 2, Peter quoted Joels prophecy that whosoever calleth upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, v21. It was fulfieed in v38:

V21--------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
v38--------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Rom 10----believe and confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

One way to be saved, no alternatives so calling upon the name of the Lord means DOING what the Lord said in believing repenting confessing and being baptized...."why call ye Me Lord Lord and DO NOT the things which I say? Lk 6:46.

Ephesians 2:5-9
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Its by GRACE we have been saved not by WORKS!

The whole point is once you have received Salvation you cannot lose it because we received Salvation by GRACE! How can you lose Grace? You cannot lose it like SeaBass says.

Listen to what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures, listen to what the Holy Spirit says in your Heart. Do not listen to the worldly people who want to put you back in bondage!

Galatians 2:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),
[SUP]5 [/SUP] to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Even back in the days of Paul there were people teaching "Works" above Grace!

The not of works in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit and not obedient works as calling upon the name of the Lord.

God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of His house. Was that a work of merit Noah did in saving His house or an obedient work?

Gal 2 refers to those who quit "OBEYING THE TRUTH" Gal 3:1; 5:7 and went back to keep the OT law.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Jesus did not say "repent ye and believe only" in Mk 1:15.

Jn 8:24-----------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3,5---------repentance>>>>>>>>>saves (not perish)
Mt 10:32,33------confession>>>>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then NT belief must include repentance, confession and baptism.

2 Thess 1:89 God has vengeance upon those that OBEY not the gospel of Christ. The implication is the gospel must be OBEYED to be saved. Faith only is not obedience to the gospel.

Luke 5:31,32
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7
7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hosea 6:6
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

I do not see how these verses relate to my post.

Of course you don't.......lol.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Here's one you can understand.......

1 Peter 3:10-12
10For“Whoever desires to love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking deceit;
11let him turn away from evil and do good;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

 

[notuptome]

Fulfill means to "To meet (a requirement or condition); satisfy."

When one fulfills, satisfies an agreement then that agreement has ended, ceases. Christ fulfilled and brought the OT to and end so he may replace it with His NT law.."He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" Heb 10:9. Heb 7:12 "... there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

Rom 7:1-7 it would be sinful for one who is married to Christ and His NT gospel to try and keep both the OT law and Christ's NT gospel at the same time......Gal 1:6-7 Paul said some of those in Galatia were REMOVED from the gospel for going back to the OT law thinking they could be justified by the OT law on circumcision.


How can you claim to have an indwelling of the HS yet so steeped in error?

The law was not diminished by Christ fulfilling it. Thou shalt not commit murder is a valid today as it was when God gave it to Moses. Same thing with thou shalt not commit adultery. Unchanged and still in full effect. All the water baptisms you can endure will not wash you clean if you transgress the law.

OT salvation and NT salvation required the same thing. The OT said blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity. The NT says God imputes to us the righteousness of Christ.

How long will you resist the calling of Gods Holy Spirit? Behold today is the day of salvation. God is long suffering and patient but He will not strive with you forever.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Of course you don't.......lol.

I showed from the bible that belief saves, repentance saves, confess saves and baptism saves and God has vengeance upon those that OBEY NOT the gospel. Therefore one must OBEY the gospel by believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized to be saved and there was nothing in your post to refute that.
One of the verses you posted was Lk 5:31,32 that says Jesus call sinners to repentance. Repentance is a work.

 

[SeaBass]

Here's one you can understand.......

1 Peter 3:10-12
10For“Whoever desires to love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking deceit;
11let him turn away from evil and do good;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

One is to turn from evil and DO good.

It says the eyes of the Lord on on the righteous. Who are the righteous? Those that WORK righteousness, 1 Jn 3:7.

 

[SeaBass]

The law was not diminished by Christ fulfilling it. Thou shalt not commit murder is a valid today as it was when God gave it to Moses. Same thing with thou shalt not commit adultery. Unchanged and still in full effect. All the water baptisms you can endure will not wash you clean if you transgress the law.

OT salvation and NT salvation required the same thing. The OT said blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity. The NT says God imputes to us the righteousness of Christ.

How long will you resist the calling of Gods Holy Spirit? Behold today is the day of salvation. God is long suffering and patient but He will not strive with you forever.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible says Christ " took it out of the way" Col 2:14. The verb took being perfect tense shows an act done in the past with a continuing effect.

Heb 10:9 " He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second"

Eph 2:14 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" The Greek word for abolish is katargeo meaning to render idle; inactive; inoperative.

You can continue to argue just for the sake in arguing and erroneously claim Christ did not abolish the OT, that He did not take it away but you remain in error. Does the HS indwell in false teachers?