Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G

GRA

Guest
I do not believe 'that which is perfect' (chapter 13 verse 10) is referring to Christ Himself (the person).

I do not even believe it is referring to "the Second Coming of Christ" - in particular.

It is just that "the Second Coming of Christ" is what "brings it about" - brings "the age" to "maturity" or "completeness"...
And - even if it is / was talking about Christ Himself - that would not change the "scope or definition" of anything else...

In any case, I believe it "points to" 'that time' when "all things are full and complete" -- and, in the context of those verses - has nothing [directly] to do with the "spiritual gifts" - because it is "dissociated" from "spiritual gifts" by the context itself.

:)

.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
feedm3, I'm not goin to address all those big long posts, at least not all at once. It's simply too time consuming, unfruitful, and frustrating to me. So if you want to continue this conversation, pick 1-2 small things that you want me to address first, and we'll go from there.



Err... that's not quite what the gift of faith is. We all have a measure of faith that's apportioned to us.

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
Romans 12:3

The gift of faith is a supernatural faith (remember, the gifts are supernatural) for a specific time and purpose. It usually works in conjunction with the other gifts. The gift of faith generally involves a boldness. For example, Abraham had bold faith, saying that God would provide an animal for the sacrifice, and He did. (Genesis 22:1-14)

Peter told a lame man to rise and walk in the name of Jesus Christ, and he was healed immediately (Acts 3:1-10). Peter spoke out because of the gift of faith, then came the gift of working of miracles when it happened.
Right, mega, exactly, God bless you delineating things , 'through faith' in Ephesians 2:8 is NOT of ourselves, it is a FREE gift of God. Right? Paul is not saying in Eph. 2:8 that we should not BOAST of saving ourselves from help and telling ourselves WE ARE GOING TO Heaven. Of course, no, Paul is speaking, exactly, as you say, what is not of ourselves is our faith, God's given every man a measure and He, and, NOT, we are who increases it.

But, Paul was led by the Lord through His willingness to go forward, Paul's choice :) But God's faith, He increased Paul's faith that God gave Him.

The worldover today Christians from all over the world are dying in the name of Jesus, to bring glory to God, it must be, and, it is God who brings that boldness into the believer, through faith, to go be a missionary somewhere. Their they are often killed, beheadings are going on all over the world now, I hear, I should pay more attention to the news, I guess, but, by faith, the Lord leads me, Yes, justvlike He led Abraham, Moses, Joseph, etc. Hebrews 11 is such powerful 'substance' of what faith truly is , 'By faith.....' ;) How many times does God say 'by faith'???

Now, on that note, those verses I posted are all of God doing things THROUGH (His) FAITH given BY (others', mostly Paul in my verses examples) FAITH to go and do what is needed, and, of voided what's done is by and through faith in Him, as we worship in spirit (Holy Spirit inside our being) and in truth. (God's words revealed, truly, to us, which will be from His Word's truths, 100%).

God bless you, guys in Christ, Rick, feed, mega, for amicably debating Him. Iron DOES sharpen iron . Speak in humility and Love,

Brothers, you should know, feedenem came to my side, regarding being born of water and spirit and I appreciate that, always, that was right back a little over a year ago when I first came on the c.c. discussion board ...

But, yes, I humbly speak in humility but we (feed and I) argued 'water' referred to 'baptism' which , from 1 Cor. 1 , I see Paul de-emphasizing that. OH, eg and feed and I 3-4 months ago arrgued this 'born of water and spirit' too, and, eg said 'water' referred to birth.

But, Yes, and, Rick just said it, I think, above post, but, Yes, I saw a verse that said the 'water' is the 'words of God' and this makes sense.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
Very well, I'll start with the first one.

1. Only apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by laying on hands.

It only takes 1 example of a non-apostle laying on hands and imparting the Holy Spirit to disprove this idea, and we have one such example.

Ananias is never identified as an apostle. Here he is identified as a disciple. Later in Acts 22, he's described as a devout man of the law. No mention of him being an apostle. But yet, he clearly laid hands on Paul so that he could regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (verse 17).

Therefore, the reason the Holy Spirit didn't fall on the people in Acts 8 was not because Philip was not an apostle. (The actual reason is something we cannot claim to know, due to a lack of details.)
Yes, I knew you would go here, and for good reason. However, there are several factors in this portion that must be considered.

1. Ananias was specifically sent by God for a task:
What is the definition of an Apostle?

G652
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

One specifically sent by God. Could God choose to send someone other than the 12? Yes
Could he give that person the ability to impart the HS - Yes
Does that mean the person was an Apostle? Not one of the 12, but in a broad sense of the word "one sent" then yes.

Even Christ is called an Apostle Heb 3:1, because he was sent by God.

Would this mean all who preach or teach can do the same? No - example Philip Acts 8.

So then the qualification - must be an Apostle, specifically sent by God.

Did Ananias meet this?
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. <directly commissioned by the Lord, as the 12.

And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth
<given a his task

So, unless one also meets this, (being commissioned directly by the Lord in a vision for that purpose) he cannot impart the gifts, just as Philip could not.


2. His laying on of hands did not mean he was imparting the HS:
laying of hands also showed selection for a task.


In Sauls case it says, "putting (laying) his hands on him", he was blind. Makes sense: Notice:
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized

So it does not mean that needed to be done in order for Paul to receive the HS, because he was an Apostle, and most like received the Spirit the same way as the other in Acts 2.

"laid his hands" can also mean in the same sense the officers "laid their hands" on Jesus - Mat 18:28

And when Jeus laid his hands on chilren - Matt 19:15

Yet even if it did mean Ananias had to do this, and had the ability to impart, He meet the correct qualifications to be called an Apostle according to the definition of the word - one sent - specifically by God


3. Acts 8 is explicit, showing ONLY the Apostles could do so, which makes this either 1. a contraction, 2. a misinterpretation.

Now Acts 8 still poses a problem. Saying Philip just did not know does not cutt it, especially with Simon's statement:

You look:

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the _________hands the HS was given:

Simon seen Phillip healing and casting out devils:

"and he continued with Philip beholding the signs that were done"

Why did he not ask Philip to give him the power that whosoever he lays his hands on will receive the HS?

Because Philip could not do so.

Philip received the laying of hands by the Apostles as well as Stephen - Acts 6.

Now notice, the Holy Spirit does not mean miracles:

Act 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Stephen was full of the HS.

Act 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Now the Apostles chose to lay their hands on him and Philip in order for them to do miracles

Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.


Now Stephen full of faith AND POWER did great wonders. The "power" was the power of the HS, the miracles.


Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth


So we can be full of the Spirit and not able to do miracles. The "power" came after.


Stephen was full of Holy Spirit before the laying on of hands. Yet no mention of miracles until after the Apostles layed their hands on him.

Stephen and Philip both received the abilities to do gifts after the Apostles gave it to them, yet Stephen was already full of the Holy Spirit. Meaning he was teaching the truth and living by it.

So was Philip, yet neither could impart this gift to others. That is why Philip had to have Peter and John come to Samaria.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
just to be clear Feedme3 which gifts do you think are still here today and which ones do you label as "miraculous"?
 
F

feedm3

Guest
just to be clear Feedme3 which gifts do you think are still here today and which ones do you label as "miraculous"?
Sorry I cant talk to 3 people at once, it's too much writing. iF you go back a page or two their listed.

Yet I am sure you figure that one out easily.

Speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.

Not that God does not heal through providence, but not in the sense of laying on of hands wholly restoring someone through another person.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Sorry I cant talk to 3 people at once, it's too much writing. iF you go back a page or two their listed.

Yet I am sure you figure that one out easily.

Speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.

Not that God does not heal through providence, but not in the sense of laying on of hands wholly restoring someone through another person.
Feedenem, who says a person with a gift of healing has to lay hands on someone?

Scripture is clear too, I think, the gifts we get are from Him, they will be afforded us to bring glory to God and show the DISBELIEVERS that God is real. People like Paul, Timothy, unclefester, ohzone, you, feed, eg, abidedsquirrel (thatza 'abide THE squirrel :D ) , ALL believers don't need to see the sighs and wonders of God , do we???? No, we ALREADY see Him, we HAVE Him in our heart.
Many though, like, ahem, Pharoah, NEEDED signs, and, pharoah's heart was STONE and Pharoah would NEVER LET God put in Him a heart of flesh. God put in a hardener after that in Him, I think, it was that stuff from JB Weld :D

But, God is SAME yesterday, as today, as forevermore, and, IF He never did use people to do 'gifts,' like 'Zechariah,' even, then cessationists COULD have a better argument, still not ever a face-to-face one winnable, but, yeah, God, ALL THROUGH TIME, even by use of a donkey to WAKE up Baalam, from abusing the poor critter, has used people in supernatural 'gifts' ways :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
M

megaman125

Guest
Ok, so let me get this straight. You're saying that Ananias was an apostle, and that ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Is this correct?
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Who says that God can't heal the person sick of cancer or bad heart or whatever just by that person's faithful prayer, the person healed may never even know this person, but God will have reached them through this person God manifested the gift thru. People, you just don't even have a clue what ALL God has done through you, but Paul is clear in Ephesians 2:10, good works R us who by grace thru faith believe in Him :) Am I brainwashing you here or is God seeming more real to you now, maybe you're becoming a little more understanding of 'gifts' God speaks into people, by His power. :) , . Just because you don't see visible gifts doesn't mean they are not there. Does it?
Don't put the almighty power of God in a box :) ALL things are possible thru God :)

Here's the verses , Ephesians 2: 8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Christ created us to do good works. We don't do them buoy our own power, we do them by His power, His Holy Spirit, which, is, indeed, is a testimony of Jesus Christ, for Christ did miracles, wonders, healings while on earth. And, His power is created good work in those who believe in Him, sure, I believe, some know the healing and work God does firsthand, but, MOST, no, they only BELIEVE, through faith,, the goodness of God's hand SEEN in their life :)
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Sorry, guys, and, gal (thatza you, milady, anariel :) ) I was interrupting you all, God bless your work for Him :)
 
G

GRA

Guest
GRA,
this is very interesting.
i don't necessarily agree with the 'because' conclusion (haven't heard it before), but the beauty of it is you've got The Lord making His Own decisions about how He will accomplish His will. cessationsim is it's own world of discussion. we agree on the main point. that's huge.

i like the studies:)
zone
I don't agree with it either - that is precisely what I am saying...

Just about "everyone I know" believes that God - upon the completion of the canon - caused the [miraculous] "spiritual gifts" to cease - because "the canon is complete and the 'gifts' are no longer needed"...

There is much truth in this statement. However, I do not believe that this description is "the way it happened" - "per se"...

That is what I am saying...

I am saying that I do not believe that scripture supports this idea of "the way it happened"...

I believe that people who say that - and try to tie "spiritual gifts" to 1 Corinthians 13:10 - are just "looking for a leg to stand on" - looking for something in the scriptures that they can point to and say "see there - the gifts ceased when the canon was completed"...

They are not willing to allow scripture itself to "show forth" the truth on the matter...

People tend to do that a lot with scripture. They pick a verse or passage that they think "proves their point" and use it as such. What they are trying to show may very well be true - just not by way of the verse or passage they have chosen - which often has nothing to do with what they have "attached" it to.

It only "pays" to allow scripture to tell us what is says, and what it means. If we "dig up" scripture in order to support an idea that we are trying to prove, we do ourselves a disservice - because "we are doing it backwards" if we go about it that way.

We must always search the scriptures with a "one-way" approach -- from scripture to us - never the other way around.

Scripture must "speak to us" - we should never "speak to it" - in other words:

"Do not put words in the mouth of scripture."

:)

.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Sorry I cant talk to 3 people at once, it's too much writing. iF you go back a page or two their listed.

Yet I am sure you figure that one out easily.

Speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.

Not that God does not heal through providence, but not in the sense of laying on of hands wholly restoring someone through another person.
yes but i was more aiming at the ones you believe are still in effect today. mainly because it will cut out some of the confusion. since when people say cessationist they tend to clump it down to ALL the spiritual gifts not there any more. for example.

Romans 12: 6-8

lists:
prophecy
ministry
teaching
exhortation
giving
leading
mercy

1 Corinthians 12: 8-10
lists: faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues

1 Corinthians 12: 28
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues


I don't want you to repeat yourself and you don't have to go into a long explanation, just wondering which of the list above you still believe are in effect today.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
Ok, so let me get this straight. You're saying that Ananias was an apostle,
Yes according to the definition of the word, he was commission by Christ for a task.

LEt me ask you, was Annias specifically commissioned for a task by Chrirst himself?

is the defintion of an Apsotle according the Greek, one commissioned by Christ - ie. one sent?

and that ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Is this correct?
Yup
 
F

feedm3

Guest
yes but i was more aiming at the ones you believe are still in effect today. mainly because it will cut out some of the confusion. since when people say cessationist they tend to clump it down to ALL the spiritual gifts not there any more. for example.

Romans 12: 6-8

lists:
prophecy
ministry
teaching
exhortation
giving
leading
mercy

1 Corinthians 12: 8-10
lists: faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues

1 Corinthians 12: 28
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues


I don't want you to repeat yourself and you don't have to go into a long explanation, just wondering which of the list above you still believe are in effect today.
Sure.

ministry
teaching
exhortation
giving
leading
mercy all still happing.

Tounges, prophecy outside the word of God, healing through laying on of hands, ceased as Paul said they would, I Cor 13:10, even though not all specifically mentioned.

Hope that gives you a better understanding of what I am talking about.

Thanks Ariel
 
F

feedm3

Guest
Who says that God can't heal the person sick of cancer or bad heart or whatever just by that person's faithful prayer, the person healed may never even know this person, but God will have reached them through this person God manifested the gift thru.
Hi Green,

I dont know if anyone is saying God cant heal the person sick of cancer. God can do all things. I do believe God heals the sick when we pray, just through providence.

In other words, we pray for a brother who is sick in the hospital. He get's better. Do we thank God? Of course.

But we pray for his/her recover asking "if it be your will". If they do not recover, we accept it, as many do not.

Yet if one does get better, through treatment, medicine ect, it is Only because of God, who gave us these things.

Yet as for a person coming in, laying their hands upon them, and restoring them fully as we see in scripture, this is what has ceased, because it was only for a purpose to confirm the word, and glorify God, making disciples.

The Jews had no excuse for their rejection of Christ.

They acknowleged:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him

These miracles confirmed Jesus was from God, as well as those he sent to continue to preach the word.

So their rejection could be because they did not have the completed revelation of God, as we do, because they had something else, miracles that confirmed who he was, and where he came from.

Now we have ther complete revelation, and can understand the truth.

Now "these are written" that we might believe. We read of them, and believe them - Jn 20:31
We need no modern day prophets, because we have all the Apostles, prophets, teachers, in the pages of the Bible. God does not speak through them as he did in times past - Heb 1:1

But instead he speaks to us through his word, which is able, and suffienent to "make the man of God perfect".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
M

megaman125

Guest
First I'll answer your question.

LEt me ask you, was Annias specifically commissioned for a task by Chrirst himself?
Yes, Ananias was given instructions from Christ himself.


Back to your two conclusions. Here they are again:

1. ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.
2. Ananias was an apostle.

Neither of your statements can be demonstrated by scripture alone, they are conclusions you have to reach. You conclude statement 1, but in order to do so, you have to assume that statement 2 is true. You conclude statement 2, but in order to do so, you have to assume that statement 1 is true. Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.

About your definition of an apostle:

What is the definition of an Apostle?

G652
&#945;&#787;&#960;&#959;&#769;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962;
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.


You say that ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, but yet your definition mentions nothing of the sort. If laying on hands to impart the Holy Spirit is something that sets the apostles apart from non-apostles, why is that not in your definition? It's such a big focus for you, but yet it's conspicuously absent in your definition of an apostle.
 
M

megaman125

Guest
Tounges, prophecy outside the word of God, healing through laying on of hands, ceased as Paul said they would, I Cor 13:10, even though not all specifically mentioned.
If tongues ceased, why is it still happening today?
 
F

feedm3

Guest
First I'll answer your question.



Yes, Ananias was given instructions from Christ himself.


Back to your two conclusions. Here they are again:
But you didnt answer the 2nd quesiton.

Is the definition of Apostle on sent/commissioned by Christ/God?
1. ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.
2. Ananias was an apostle.
I notice you really did not read my post. I presented 3 arguemnts.

1. you cannot prove annias was not an Apostle according to the defintion.
2. His laying on of hands does not mean it was HS impartation.

I told you I believe his laying on of hands had nothign to do with Paul receiving the HS, because I believe Paul received him the same way the Apostles did in Acts 2.

But sense you want to force this one to be my position, I will take it for the sake of argument.

Neither of your statements can be demonstrated by scripture alone, they are conclusions you have to reach.
Wrong agian.

Acts 8 - Demonstrates without a doubt ONLY the Apsotles could lay their hands on the Samaritians, which even simon said plainly.

The defintion of the word supports my conclusion.

Now, where are your scriptural support that one could lay hands and not be an Apostle.

If Still Annias, then either prove:

1. He was not an Apostle, though he meets the definition of the word.

2. His laying on of hands gave teh HS, and was not a common gesture that Jews did.

You conclude statement 1, but in order to do so, you have to assume that statement 2 is true.
Statement 1 - Annias fit the definition of an Apsotle? see the defintion - NOT STATEMENT 2

Statement 2 - Only the Apostles could impart gifts - See Acts 8 - NOT statemnt 1

Sorry, that did not fly, sounded good though.

You conclude statement 2, but in order to do so, you have to assume that statement 1 is true. Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.
Just proved that wrong, your trying to get me a logic flaw, but you cant, because your trying to force it.

About your definition of an apostle:

[/b]

You say that ONLY apostles can impart the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, but yet your definition mentions nothing of the sort.
I never said the definition says only the Apostles can impart. I conclude that from Acts 8, not the definition.

Your crossing things here, maybe trying to force that circular reasoning. I am spending alot of time batting down the straw men, please stick to what I am saying.

The definition says an Apostle is one sent by Christ/God.

Acts 8 shows only the Apostles could impart.

Neither need the other for the conclusion, nor to interpret.

This is getting comical.

Stop trying to force things that are not there.




If laying on hands to impart the Holy Spirit is something that sets the apostles apart from non-apostles, why is that not in your definition?
Lol, wow.

Talk about straw men. Mega, ACTS 8 SHOWS ONLY THE APOSTLES COULD DO SO.

THE DEFINTION SHOWS WHAT AN APOSTLE WAS/IS.

Here:
Go to Acts 8 to disprove only Apostles could impart

Go to the definition to disprove an Apostle is one sent by Christ.

Your tying to go to the definition to disprove acts 8

They have ntohging to do with one another it makes no sense.
It's such a big focus for you, but yet it's conspicuously absent in your definition of an apostle.
So your saying the definition should tell us what an Apostle is, and what his abilities were?

It tells us one sent. Why would it go into details about imparting the HS, it is a dictionary not a commentary.

This really was just a bunch of unnecessary writing. You asked me 2 quesiton, I answer them both, gave you two, and you answered 1.

Here they are again.

Was Ananias commissioned by Christ? - Answered

is the definition of an Apostle "one sent", "one commissioned by Christ" - unanswered.

Are you going to deal with the other 2 aruements I presented as well?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Thank you.

"That being the case - why don't you add that remark to the study thread(s)...?"

:D
.
tell me me what you mean, and how to do it, and i will GRA.
(i think:)).
zone
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
You keep building on something that you have said out of your own imagination. - Which I have shown as mistaken.
(You seem to be under the delusion that I Corinthians 12 and all the other verses that deal with the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not there- in the Holy Canon.)
I can only show you that they are.
Which I have.
[/COLOR]
hi Rick.
it's a bit of a challenge to reply without us each using the [ /quote ] thingee...so far so good though.

no, 1 Corinthians is in there, for sure.
just like Job and Genesis, and Revelation.
you don't think you're in Job's day or back in Eden, right?
neither do we insert ourselves onto Patmos.

tongues were not babbling in unintelligable noises.
ever. only in the pagan world.
z