Sunday - the first day of the week
- Thread starter zone
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
Well my question about which gospel we're talking about had to do with the fact that I hear "but Paul said etc." much much more than I hear "Jesus said this about that." If whatever Paul said seemed to contradict anything Jesus said, I'd think we'd immediately readdress our interpretation of what Paul was saying. If we think Paul said anything different than what Jesus said, we shouldn't even be listening to Paul.
P
John 15
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.
8“By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
Isn't this what we are grafted into, dear friend?
Not the nation of Israel, but The Father as Root, and Christ as the Vine? ♥
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.
8“By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
Isn't this what we are grafted into, dear friend?
Not the nation of Israel, but The Father as Root, and Christ as the Vine? ♥
S
Romans 11 is talking about Israel. I won't post the whole chapter. But the beginning speaks of Israel.
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[SUP]a[/SUP] ? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[SUP]b[/SUP] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
I'll jump forward to verse 11 to 25.
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way[SUP]e[/SUP] all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this isf my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP] “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP]“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP]
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[SUP]a[/SUP] ? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[SUP]b[/SUP] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
I'll jump forward to verse 11 to 25.
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way[SUP]e[/SUP] all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this isf my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP] “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP]“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP]
Last edited by a moderator:
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
(Act 9:15)
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
(Rom 15:15-16)
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
(Gal 2:7-8)
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
(1Co 15:1-4)
(Act 9:15)
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
(Rom 15:15-16)
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
(Gal 2:7-8)
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
(1Co 15:1-4)
I could quote the Holy Scripture in the New Testament about not lording it over the original as taught in Romans, but then this would lead to an endless litany back and forth. It is not what I have dreamed up I share, just as it not what you have, I really have and do understand this from the Lord. Of course Yeshua is the true vine, yet elsewhere from the Word it is written we are graffed in to Israel. I believe much of this is unecessary what with our living in the grace of Yeshua.
it is heartbreaking that so many immediately think one is directing others to be under the law, the curse of the law, when it is mentioned it is worth studying for the wisdom, teaching, revelation and prohesy contained therein. This is the enemy muddling the waters. We are the Israel of Yahweh in Yeshua, and we all wait for our city, New Jerusalem, to be brought down from our Father, what a glorious day that will be, amen.
it is heartbreaking that so many immediately think one is directing others to be under the law, the curse of the law, when it is mentioned it is worth studying for the wisdom, teaching, revelation and prohesy contained therein. This is the enemy muddling the waters. We are the Israel of Yahweh in Yeshua, and we all wait for our city, New Jerusalem, to be brought down from our Father, what a glorious day that will be, amen.
S
I know what you meant, crossnote. And I answered the question. I can't understand why you don't see that. I accept Paul as a disciple. But I don't go with what he says when it seems to contradict what Christ said. And I often see people misinterpret Paul and actually go with what they think Paul said when to me their interpretation contradicts what Christ said. I've answered you now. I can think of no clearer way to answer you.
Last edited by a moderator:
