The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’
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Men either sin by choice or they sin by nature. If they sin by choice then their sin is their own responsibility, if they sin by nature then their sin is not their fault because they are simply acting in accord with their nature.
Jesus Christ was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are yet was without sin. Thus it is reasonable to conclude that temptation is connected to sin and the scriptures support this view (1Cor 10:13, Jam 1:14-15).
James taught that it was the lusts of the flesh which draw people into sin (Jam 1:14-15) and it can be clearly seen that Eve was drawn into eating the forbidden fruit through her own lusts (Gen 3;6).
Thus it is clearly evident that the draw to sin is via the lusts of the flesh.
Paul taught that we are slaves to whom we obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16) thus illustrating two different paths.
When Jesus walked the earth Jesus was a slave of righteousness and thus yielded a life of obedience unto righteousness. Jesus denied Himself and picked up His cross. Jesus denied the lusts of His flesh and yielded to the Father's will.
Paul writes in Gal 5:24 that "those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the passions and desires" and then go onto say in verse 25 that we ought to WALK in the Spirit.
Paul writes in Rom 8:2 that it is "the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that sets us free from the law of sin and death" and then goes on to say that "righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
We see clearly these two different walks described by Paul.
One can either walk after the flesh yielding to the passions and desires of the flesh, that road leads to death.
Or
One can walk after the Spirit, bringing the body into subjection to the will of God.
One road requires one to deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Jesus and the other road does not.
Jesus taught that whomsoever will lose their life for His sake will save it but those who save their life will lose it.
The question we all have to ask ourselves is which road are we on. Do we obey sin unto death (Rom 6:16) and are thus slaves of sin (Joh 8:34, Rom 6:16), or do we obey the doctrine once delivered (Rom 6:17) and are thus slaves of righteousness (Rom 6:18) which leads to holiness the end of which is eternal life.
Original Sin is taught in different ways by many people. There are those of the Reformed Tradition who hold to "Total Depravity." They teach that the sin of Adam corrupted his nature in such a way that this corruption was past down from generation to generation.
This view basically comes in two different flavour. One flavour holds sin to be an actual substance in the flesh that is literally passed down via the male sperm. This view is called Seminal Identity or the Natural Head Theory. The theological term for this view is Traducianism.
Teachers like John MacArthur hold the above view and that is why he will say things like this...
The Distinctive Qualities of the True Christian, Part 1
This was the view Augustine of Hippo held in the 4th century and it was the view he introduced into Church Orthodoxy through his prolific writings and personality. Augustine viewed all humanity as being in the loins of Adam and that when Adam sinned all humanity became infected with corruption and was also guilty.
An alternate view held by many theologians of the Reformed Tradition is that of the Federal Head view or Creationism. This view teaches that Adam was the representative of all men who violated a covenant with God and thus the seed of corruption is imparted to the soul at conception. This is probably the most commonly held view today.
It does not really matter which view one holds for they both teach that the reason men sin is not because of choice but due to birth nature.
Thus sin is no longer a crime but a disease.
When actual sin is the result of a disease and bondage to sin is from birth then it forces repentance to be taught as a confession of this diseased condition with an associated cry out for help.
On the other hand ff sin is actually rooted in a free choice of one choosing to yield to lust in an unlwaful manner then repentance is something very different indeed.
Anyway some food for thought. I will write more later, work calls.
Jesus Christ was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are yet was without sin. Thus it is reasonable to conclude that temptation is connected to sin and the scriptures support this view (1Cor 10:13, Jam 1:14-15).
James taught that it was the lusts of the flesh which draw people into sin (Jam 1:14-15) and it can be clearly seen that Eve was drawn into eating the forbidden fruit through her own lusts (Gen 3;6).
Thus it is clearly evident that the draw to sin is via the lusts of the flesh.
Paul taught that we are slaves to whom we obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16) thus illustrating two different paths.
When Jesus walked the earth Jesus was a slave of righteousness and thus yielded a life of obedience unto righteousness. Jesus denied Himself and picked up His cross. Jesus denied the lusts of His flesh and yielded to the Father's will.
Paul writes in Gal 5:24 that "those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the passions and desires" and then go onto say in verse 25 that we ought to WALK in the Spirit.
Paul writes in Rom 8:2 that it is "the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that sets us free from the law of sin and death" and then goes on to say that "righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
We see clearly these two different walks described by Paul.
One can either walk after the flesh yielding to the passions and desires of the flesh, that road leads to death.
Or
One can walk after the Spirit, bringing the body into subjection to the will of God.
One road requires one to deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Jesus and the other road does not.
Jesus taught that whomsoever will lose their life for His sake will save it but those who save their life will lose it.
The question we all have to ask ourselves is which road are we on. Do we obey sin unto death (Rom 6:16) and are thus slaves of sin (Joh 8:34, Rom 6:16), or do we obey the doctrine once delivered (Rom 6:17) and are thus slaves of righteousness (Rom 6:18) which leads to holiness the end of which is eternal life.
Original Sin is taught in different ways by many people. There are those of the Reformed Tradition who hold to "Total Depravity." They teach that the sin of Adam corrupted his nature in such a way that this corruption was past down from generation to generation.
This view basically comes in two different flavour. One flavour holds sin to be an actual substance in the flesh that is literally passed down via the male sperm. This view is called Seminal Identity or the Natural Head Theory. The theological term for this view is Traducianism.
Teachers like John MacArthur hold the above view and that is why he will say things like this...
The Distinctive Qualities of the True Christian, Part 1
This was the view Augustine of Hippo held in the 4th century and it was the view he introduced into Church Orthodoxy through his prolific writings and personality. Augustine viewed all humanity as being in the loins of Adam and that when Adam sinned all humanity became infected with corruption and was also guilty.
An alternate view held by many theologians of the Reformed Tradition is that of the Federal Head view or Creationism. This view teaches that Adam was the representative of all men who violated a covenant with God and thus the seed of corruption is imparted to the soul at conception. This is probably the most commonly held view today.
It does not really matter which view one holds for they both teach that the reason men sin is not because of choice but due to birth nature.
Thus sin is no longer a crime but a disease.
When actual sin is the result of a disease and bondage to sin is from birth then it forces repentance to be taught as a confession of this diseased condition with an associated cry out for help.
On the other hand ff sin is actually rooted in a free choice of one choosing to yield to lust in an unlwaful manner then repentance is something very different indeed.
Anyway some food for thought. I will write more later, work calls.
Granted we are all going to sin big time if we add up everything we do after coming into the knowledge of right and wrong, or the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, (this is an OT parable), which tells us we will know right from wrong when the time comes and can expect to be punished for our wrong doing and thrust out of heaven (the Garden of Eden).
Fortunately God has made a way of escape by becoming the second Adam and paying for Adam's (Mankinds) sin.
This is why Jesus spoke of himself as the son of man. Jesus is the First and the last and in this way the sins for the whole of humankind from the first Adam to the Last Adam are paid for and that's what is so amazing.
Fortunately God has made a way of escape by becoming the second Adam and paying for Adam's (Mankinds) sin.
This is why Jesus spoke of himself as the son of man. Jesus is the First and the last and in this way the sins for the whole of humankind from the first Adam to the Last Adam are paid for and that's what is so amazing.
will all men be saved?
zone
I don't think these will be saved?
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
2 Peter 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam,
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2 Timothy 4:4 “They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Ezekiel 33:18 “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.”
Galations 5:4-7 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
Hebrews 3:12-14,18 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end....And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”
Proverbs 21:16 “A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.”
Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
2 Peter 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam,
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2 Timothy 4:4 “They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Ezekiel 33:18 “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.”
Galations 5:4-7 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
Hebrews 3:12-14,18 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end....And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”
Proverbs 21:16 “A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.”
Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
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Scott:
i guess it's your assertion that an hypothetical man who:
asserts he is saved and walking in the light for, say, 17 years....he goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, and yet himself falls into the grip of a particular sin, in say, year 18......was never saved at all?
what if he now says he was never saved at all? can we trust anything he says based on his previous professions for nearly 2 decades?
what would your assessment of that hypothetical man's actual condition, past and present be?
was he deliberately lying to himself and others about being saved and walking in righteousness for 17 years, while making a conscious free-will choice to proceed to commit horrendous crimes against God Almighty while yet claiming to have fellowship with Him?
how does that man actually get saved?
how can he tell he is saved, if he thought he was for so long previously?
can we get this important discussion to take some real-life shape?
thanks Scott.
zone
i guess it's your assertion that an hypothetical man who:
asserts he is saved and walking in the light for, say, 17 years....he goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, and yet himself falls into the grip of a particular sin, in say, year 18......was never saved at all?
what if he now says he was never saved at all? can we trust anything he says based on his previous professions for nearly 2 decades?
what would your assessment of that hypothetical man's actual condition, past and present be?
was he deliberately lying to himself and others about being saved and walking in righteousness for 17 years, while making a conscious free-will choice to proceed to commit horrendous crimes against God Almighty while yet claiming to have fellowship with Him?
how does that man actually get saved?
how can he tell he is saved, if he thought he was for so long previously?
can we get this important discussion to take some real-life shape?
thanks Scott.
zone
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ps Scott: did you just update your profile to have yourself saved just this last year or so?
i ask because, first i say AMEN (if indeed you have been born again), and also because i would wonder about how you might think you are qualified to teach anyone anything at all about the Christian life, being yet such a new babe in Christ?
this is not an attack Scott, rather, a sincere request for decency and honesty for The Holy One's Precious Name, and for the good of His tender lambs.
let's keep it real.
thanks again
zone.
i ask because, first i say AMEN (if indeed you have been born again), and also because i would wonder about how you might think you are qualified to teach anyone anything at all about the Christian life, being yet such a new babe in Christ?
this is not an attack Scott, rather, a sincere request for decency and honesty for The Holy One's Precious Name, and for the good of His tender lambs.
let's keep it real.
thanks again
zone.
C
What of those who were under the Law? Were they compelled by God to obey those laws or did they choose to obey them? If there were consequences of breaking a particular law, then it would seem that they had a choice to obey, not compellingly, but as beings able to decide. As Scripture mentions: Choose you this day whom you shall follow......As for me, I shall.......
If we are born deprived of any desires to do good, then my Lord stands corrected when He said: if your earthly fathers know how to give good gifts..... Or the time when Abel wanted to please the Lord, and within himself, he decided to give unto God a pleasing offering of thanksgiving. Or the man who decided that living in a pig pen was not his desires, but that through remorse of the heart, he sought forgiveness from his father.
Indeed, we are only deprived when we desire to remain so.
If we are born deprived of any desires to do good, then my Lord stands corrected when He said: if your earthly fathers know how to give good gifts..... Or the time when Abel wanted to please the Lord, and within himself, he decided to give unto God a pleasing offering of thanksgiving. Or the man who decided that living in a pig pen was not his desires, but that through remorse of the heart, he sought forgiveness from his father.
Indeed, we are only deprived when we desire to remain so.
This mentioning was to God's covenant people, who already had His laws and knew His will. Not a universal call to all gentiles of various kinds.
These good gifts has nothing to do with justification.
Really? Then desire it hard enough and then choose to be perfect as God is perfect. Don't lower that standard.
These good gifts has nothing to do with justification.
Really? Then desire it hard enough and then choose to be perfect as God is perfect. Don't lower that standard.
hi cfultz
my understanding is Galatians was one of the earliest epistles.
Paul seems to have settled that question completely.
i have to keep referring back to it, or i can forget
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
~
22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
my understanding is Galatians was one of the earliest epistles.
Paul seems to have settled that question completely.
i have to keep referring back to it, or i can forget
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
~
22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
R
If you are trying to imply that one cannot live for God..that is erroneous..its the will of God that all men live for God..
Holiness theology is not merely inclusive to those who believe in it and live it..its for all christians, the calvinist..the arminian..the charismatic...the baptist..
we all should seek to be holy,and this provision is given through God by his spirit.
We should all be carefull that we do not get into making a sole appeal to Grace without then the biblical implementation of Holy and right living,which is bibilcal,and attainable...thus then one runs the risk of making sin excusatory..at the end of the day, regardless of your theological persuation..you are either 1)living for God(He is not to be mocked..you can fool man, you cannot fool God) 2)or we are deceived into believing the premise of cheap grace which is no grace at all. Grace requires a response,and a lifestyle change..call it the born again experience and new birth..But Holiness is not an option..1 peter 1 says..be ye Holy,as I am Holy..let's focus more on what God says then only fixate on Paul's appeals to grace,which he did appeal to, but never once said living for God is not God's will for us(see 1 thessalonians 4:3)
Holiness theology is not merely inclusive to those who believe in it and live it..its for all christians, the calvinist..the arminian..the charismatic...the baptist..
we all should seek to be holy,and this provision is given through God by his spirit.
We should all be carefull that we do not get into making a sole appeal to Grace without then the biblical implementation of Holy and right living,which is bibilcal,and attainable...thus then one runs the risk of making sin excusatory..at the end of the day, regardless of your theological persuation..you are either 1)living for God(He is not to be mocked..you can fool man, you cannot fool God) 2)or we are deceived into believing the premise of cheap grace which is no grace at all. Grace requires a response,and a lifestyle change..call it the born again experience and new birth..But Holiness is not an option..1 peter 1 says..be ye Holy,as I am Holy..let's focus more on what God says then only fixate on Paul's appeals to grace,which he did appeal to, but never once said living for God is not God's will for us(see 1 thessalonians 4:3)
C
This mentioning was to God's covenant people, who already had His laws and knew His will. Not a universal call to all gentiles of various kinds. --And? Does not even a Gentile decide who to follow or are they compelled to follow? Again, Scripture says: choose who you shall follow. One cannot have two masters. Die to flesh so that you can live to the spirit. Come and follow me.
These good gifts has nothing to do with justification. -- But does it not imply that we as humans do have some goodness in us? Is it not at all possible, since we were created in the image of God, that we humans have compassion upon those hurt? Can we not see a hungry soul and fell his stomach? Can we not see a homeless man and give him shelter? As to that last part, justification is only by the blood of Jesus, but then again, what does that justification have to do with humans having some sort of goodness in them?
Really? Then desire hard enough and then choose to be perfect as God is perfect. -- If I say that I am perfect, I lie to myself. We are told to be perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect. In Chirst we are perfect and in need of nothing to make us complete. If we say that we have no sins (morally perfect), we lie. Which difinition of perfect are we speaking of here, seeing that there are about 10 words which are defined as perfect?
These good gifts has nothing to do with justification. -- But does it not imply that we as humans do have some goodness in us? Is it not at all possible, since we were created in the image of God, that we humans have compassion upon those hurt? Can we not see a hungry soul and fell his stomach? Can we not see a homeless man and give him shelter? As to that last part, justification is only by the blood of Jesus, but then again, what does that justification have to do with humans having some sort of goodness in them?
Really? Then desire hard enough and then choose to be perfect as God is perfect. -- If I say that I am perfect, I lie to myself. We are told to be perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect. In Chirst we are perfect and in need of nothing to make us complete. If we say that we have no sins (morally perfect), we lie. Which difinition of perfect are we speaking of here, seeing that there are about 10 words which are defined as perfect?
C
hi cfultz
my understanding is Galatians was one of the earliest epistles.
Paul seems to have settled that question completely.
i have to keep referring back to it, or i can forget
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
~
22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
my understanding is Galatians was one of the earliest epistles.
Paul seems to have settled that question completely.
i have to keep referring back to it, or i can forget
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
~
22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
The question remains whether those under the Law were compelled or did they willfully obey the Law?
rauleetoe...is there anything in this passage on Wesleyan Holiness Theology you would disagree with?
do you see any glaring inconsistency?
"First, Wesley taught the classical doctrine of original sin and the absolute inability of human beings to save themselves through virtuous works.[iii] As with the Protestant Reformers, Luther and Calvin, Wesley held that Adam’s disobedience plunged the human race into a matrix of sin from which, barring divine intervention, there is no escape. Departing from the Reformers, however, Wesley rejected their notions of election, predestination, irresistible grace and the like as matters of opinion. He believed that these ideas not only did not reflect the teaching of the Bible and the early church, but also that they did not portray accurately the character or work of a loving God. Instead, following St. Paul’s discussions of law and gospel, sin and justification in Galatians and Romans, Wesley insisted that the grace of God is freely available to all who would hear the gospel, repent, and believe; grace precedes faith so that the choice to believe is uncoerced and free. The doctrine of prevenient grace (“grace that goes before”), which Wesley gleaned from the church fathers, points to a God who saves the lost without transgressing their moral freedom to choose. Such grace enables the individual to repent of their sins and to believe in Jesus Christ."
Asbury University | Wesleyan-Holiness Theology < click
do you see any glaring inconsistency?
"First, Wesley taught the classical doctrine of original sin and the absolute inability of human beings to save themselves through virtuous works.[iii] As with the Protestant Reformers, Luther and Calvin, Wesley held that Adam’s disobedience plunged the human race into a matrix of sin from which, barring divine intervention, there is no escape. Departing from the Reformers, however, Wesley rejected their notions of election, predestination, irresistible grace and the like as matters of opinion. He believed that these ideas not only did not reflect the teaching of the Bible and the early church, but also that they did not portray accurately the character or work of a loving God. Instead, following St. Paul’s discussions of law and gospel, sin and justification in Galatians and Romans, Wesley insisted that the grace of God is freely available to all who would hear the gospel, repent, and believe; grace precedes faith so that the choice to believe is uncoerced and free. The doctrine of prevenient grace (“grace that goes before”), which Wesley gleaned from the church fathers, points to a God who saves the lost without transgressing their moral freedom to choose. Such grace enables the individual to repent of their sins and to believe in Jesus Christ."
Asbury University | Wesleyan-Holiness Theology < click
I don't gainsay the need of walking upright. The crucial question remains however what we center our faith around and what we set our only and lasting hope to: either it is Christ alone or it is more or less our own self and its "abilities". Either we hold to that we are justified by God and rest in it or we hold to that we are to gain some justification by our own to, hopefully at best, earn God's favor and acceptance to the end. There's no way around this one.
R
One has to take that which the High Calvinist says with a grain of salt, that being all scripture is read through TULIP and through the concepts of compatibilism and Absolute Divine determinism..one is left believing that some will be passed over by God, and that this somehow brings God glory,and at the same breath the High Calvinist will say that God is still good and that those who oppose their view are opposing God and need a new definition of goodness..well good in my dictionary is defined as this-
1. right;proper 2.kind 3. beneficial.
So is it right for a man who was not allegedly given the grace that he would need to serve God, or at least sincerely reject him then be punished for that thing which he had no other option but to do? If he is predetermined to live a life of sin, to spit in God's face as an act of defiance that was too also forordained by God, and thus all this sin is enabled by God himself(so according to calvinism God is not a Holy God, a true unscriptural contradiction in itself) And if he 'passing over' these for no apparent reason, is to be considered still to be 'kind' how so? Because he gives them material blessings here on this earth and lets them live one more day on earth? That person who is predetermined to go to hell then would have been better off to have never been born! And finally, it is beneficial of God to send some to hell without having given them the libertarian free will to choose life...when it clearly says 1 timothy 2:4 that he wants all men to be saved,and come to the truth.
1. right;proper 2.kind 3. beneficial.
So is it right for a man who was not allegedly given the grace that he would need to serve God, or at least sincerely reject him then be punished for that thing which he had no other option but to do? If he is predetermined to live a life of sin, to spit in God's face as an act of defiance that was too also forordained by God, and thus all this sin is enabled by God himself(so according to calvinism God is not a Holy God, a true unscriptural contradiction in itself) And if he 'passing over' these for no apparent reason, is to be considered still to be 'kind' how so? Because he gives them material blessings here on this earth and lets them live one more day on earth? That person who is predetermined to go to hell then would have been better off to have never been born! And finally, it is beneficial of God to send some to hell without having given them the libertarian free will to choose life...when it clearly says 1 timothy 2:4 that he wants all men to be saved,and come to the truth.
E
No one is denying one should not strive to live a Holy Life. No one that I know would not confront a brother as God commands us to if we see them stuck with a sin issue. No one that I know of teaches we are free to live any way we desire.
thus I agree with prety much everything you said. The issue then becomes why we do the things you said.
if it is because we are saved, and because we have repented. and because we have an attitude of gratitude towards God for his free gift. then all is well.
if we do it to gain salvation, or in order to not lose salvation. then we teach legalism and are no better than the pharisee who crucified Christ.
I know you have me on ignore. and thats fine. It does not mean I will not confront you when I see you claiming we believe something else. teach something else. And when you twist what you believe and say it is perfectly fine, when it is not.
thus I agree with prety much everything you said. The issue then becomes why we do the things you said.
if it is because we are saved, and because we have repented. and because we have an attitude of gratitude towards God for his free gift. then all is well.
if we do it to gain salvation, or in order to not lose salvation. then we teach legalism and are no better than the pharisee who crucified Christ.
I know you have me on ignore. and thats fine. It does not mean I will not confront you when I see you claiming we believe something else. teach something else. And when you twist what you believe and say it is perfectly fine, when it is not.