The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[zone]

Hi Zone,
The question remains whether those under the Law were compelled or did they willfully obey the Law?

hi cfultz3
for me the question is resolved by God Himself:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

whether they [or we] obeyed to best of our ability, with the Law or without it, He has already said what condition they [and we] were in.

and, under the Law, they were compelled. to do all of everything written therein.
was it possible? i don't know.

because God has concluded:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

there was only One Who did everything that pleased The Father.
Amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One has to take that which the High Calvinist says with a grain of salt, that being all scripture is read through TULIP and through the concepts of compatibilism and Absolute Divine determinism..one is left believing that some will be passed over by God, and that this somehow brings God glory,and at the same breath the High Calvinist will say that God is still good and that those who oppose their view are opposing God and need a new definition of goodness..well good in my dictionary is defined as this-

1. right;proper 2.kind 3. beneficial.

So is it right for a man who was not allegedly given the grace that he would need to serve God, or at least sincerely reject him then be punished for that thing which he had no other option but to do? If he is predetermined to live a life of sin, to spit in God's face as an act of defiance that was too also forordained by God, and thus all this sin is enabled by God himself(so according to calvinism God is not a Holy God, a true unscriptural contradiction in itself) And if he 'passing over' these for no apparent reason, is to be considered still to be 'kind' how so? Because he gives them material blessings here on this earth and lets them live one more day on earth? That person who is predetermined to go to hell then would have been better off to have never been born! And finally, it is beneficial of God to send some to hell without having given them the libertarian free will to choose life...when it clearly says 1 timothy 2:4 that he wants all men to be saved,and come to the truth.

This is the aspect of calvanism which sickens me.. Of this we agree..

 

[Grandpa]

Men either sin by choice or they sin by nature. If they sin by choice then their sin is their own responsibility, if they sin by nature then their sin is not their fault because they are simply acting in accord with their nature..

Its not an either/or situation. It is both. Men sin by choice and they sin by nature.

Men are born into flesh bodies. They immediately want all their fleshly desires to be appeased. Men are completely selfish and completely led by their flesh when they are born.

It takes training and teaching and the Holy Spirit to cause a man to seek a different Way.

One can either walk after the flesh yielding to the passions and desires of the flesh, that road leads to death.

Or

One can walk after the Spirit, bringing the body into subjection to the will of God.

Nope. You can only walk after the flesh, period. You have no power to walk after the spirit by your own choice and your own will.

You must come to the Lord Jesus if you desire to walk in a different way than after the flesh. This desire to walk in a different way comes from the Holy Spirit. Your flesh doesn't desire to crucify itself...

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[tribesman]

The power of God is God's mighty hand to save condemned and utterly powerless sinners through Christ and the Cross alone (which is the gospel in a nutshell). Salvation is completely of the Lord - it is the work of God alone by grace alone! To deny God's power is thus to try to mix in human achievement and contribution in different ways for (final) salvation, justification and "acceptance" before God. This is to deny to God's power. To deny God's power is also to deny God's righteousness (justification) that is ONLY found in Christ. God's righteousness is a perfect righteousness - which is inherited by all those saved in Christ - completely outside man himself (Rom.1:16, 10:3, 2Cor.5:21).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hi cfultz3
for me the question is resolved by God Himself:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

whether they [or we] obeyed to best of our ability, with the Law or without it, He has already said what condition they [and we] were in.

and, under the Law, they were compelled. to do all of everything written therein.
was it possible? i don't know.

because God has concluded:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

which brings us to another question we need to ask ourselves.

How good is good enough? If we are again bound under law. and we are saved or not saved by how good we are. then how Good is good enough, and who can know what the cut-off is??

of course the law tells us how Good is good enough. and romans 3: 23 tells us because of this, what our status is against God.

 

[rauleetoe]

I don't gainsay the need of walking upright. The crucial question remains however what we center our faith around and what we set our only and lasting hope to: either it is Christ alone or it is more or less our own self and its "abilities". Either we hold to that we are justified by God and rest in it or we hold to that we are to gain some justification by our own to, hopefully at best, earn God's favor and acceptance to the end. There's no way around this one.

Who said we are to seek justifying ourselves in our actions? If any good is to be found in you..in I, in any it is all God..I never said otherwise. But does this excuse you or anyone to simply point to your election? Or do you be encouraged to live for God? I detest the word games some play..if you are serving God, then amen..yes..but if you are simply wanting to trap me into your games with words..then good luck in trying to stump me. You are either of God or not..Calvin did not die for you..neither did Piper..or McArthur..you have better have assurance in you being saved..

The way around seems to me that you appeal only to grace(show me otherwise that it is not what you are implying) and that is false Grace..and this is exactly which those who embrace holiness wanted to avoid, justifying sin..
and this tribesman, is the fallacy of calvinism..because logically the calvinist will say, I am good. I do not need to live for him(Please tell me this is not what you are implying) I can only go by what it seems it is that you are saying and promoting. I do hope i am reading it wrong and that you are not appealing to grace, as many high calvinists i know personally in real life have and do not have any desire to be right before God but merely point to their theologial stance aka their election.
if it is..then you need to repent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The power of God is God's mighty hand to save condemned and utterly powerless sinners through Christ and the Cross alone (which is the gospel in a nutshell). Salvation is completely of the Lord - it is the work of God alone by grace alone! To deny God's power is thus to try to mix in human achievement and contribution in different ways for (final) salvation, justification and "acceptance" before God. This is to deny to God's power. To deny God's power is also to deny God's righteousness (justification) that is ONLY found in Christ. God's righteousness is a perfect righteousness - which is inherited by all those saved in Christ - completely outside man himself (Rom.1:16, 10:3, 2Cor.5:21).

agree 100 %, It is ALL of God. he did all the work. That is why he demands we repent and chose to trust him, and not self.

the problem is, if we are not given the opportunity to repent. Then we have serious issues.

 

[tribesman]

which brings us to another question we need to ask ourselves.

How good is good enough? If we are again bound under law. and we are saved or not saved by how good we are. then how Good is good enough, and who can know what the cut-off is??

of course the law tells us how Good is good enough. and romans 3: 23 tells us because of this, what our status is against God.

Libertarian antinomians and "christian perfectionists" alike do not acknowledge God's law in full. Neither are they not yet convinced of their own sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Libertarian antinomians and "christian perfectionists" alike do not acknowledge God's law in full. Neither are they not yet convinced of their own sin.

aww yes. back to the same argument, Legalism and licentious comes from the same mold. they both try to justify their sin (in the licentious vew any sin, and in the legalist view, the sins they claim are "not so evil" or however they classify them" ) thus they have not repented, and given it all to God. they are still trying to earn their way by their own gospel. and rejecting the gospel of God.

 

[rauleetoe]

The power of God is God's mighty hand to save condemned and utterly powerless sinners through Christ and the Cross alone (which is the gospel in a nutshell). Salvation is completely of the Lord - it is the work of God alone by grace alone! To deny God's power is thus to try to mix in human achievement and contribution in different ways for (final) salvation, justification and "acceptance" before God. This is to deny to God's power. To deny God's power is also to deny God's righteousness (justification) that is ONLY found in Christ. God's righteousness is a perfect righteousness - which is inherited by all those saved in Christ - completely outside man himself (Rom.1:16, 10:3, 2Cor.5:21).

If you ever even read what i have posted before you would see that i never said that any merit is to take place of God's grace. Yes salvation is all grace, but how do you respond in that? If you truly read what i said previously..and knew anything about classical arminian theology(you obviously do not) then you would see that no one here is denying God's work..but we are not mere robotic automations..after that conversion..you do have a choice..after hearing the message..you do have a choice..even zone, a monergistic Lutheran agrees with me..why can't you do the same?
Grace does not excuse sin..it never can. You are either serving God, or you are playing games on sunday and may be deceiving many on here and many in real life..but at the end of the day, your tree will either be fruitfull or it will be barren. You are either resisting God by not being Holy and right in his eyes and by his spirit(read this..should i tell you in spanish so we can understand each other?) Nobody is appealing to works, but you HAD BETTER have some works..and YOU HAD BETTER have fruit..
otherwise, you lie when you say you are of the faith..
you can fool me..you cannot fool God.

 

[rauleetoe]

Libertarian antinomians and "christian perfectionists" alike do not acknowledge God's law in full. Neither are they not yet convinced of their own sin.

It says in God's word to be Holy as he is Holy..and in 1 thessalonias 4:3 that he has not called us to uncleanliness but unto holiness. Do you choose to ignore what is written there because it is not the
easy thing to do?
1 john 3 clearly says that the believer can no longer practice sin,because God's seed is in him(so much a do it yourself christianity accusation there)

1 thessalonians 4:8 clearly says that if you ignore this message to be called unto holiness..you are not ignoring Raul, or those holiness minded folks you despise..You ignore God, who has given his Holy spirit to live in you..

do what you will..but read it for yourself..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you ever even read what i have posted before you would see that i never said that any merit is to take place of God's grace. Yes salvation is all grace, but how do you respond in that? If you truly read what i said previously..and knew anything about classical arminian theology(you obviously do not) then you would see that no one here is denying God's work..but we are not mere robotic automations..after that conversion..you do have a choice..after hearing the message..you do have a choice..even zone, a monergistic Lutheran agrees with me..why can't you do the same?

So Zone thinks one can lose salvation if they do not live up to the merit system? Wow Zone what do you have to say to this??

Grace does not excuse sin..it never can.

No one said it does (that I know of) it is because of sin, that we continue to need grace. Who deserves more grace? the one who sins daily, but sins the world can;t see, or sins of the heart? or the one who sins daily, the sins every can see? this is the part legalists do not get, they excuse their own sin, because they reject that their sin is equal in nature to the sins they claim to be horrible sin.

We should all Admit we are lost and without hope. and never think we made it. Only in doing this can we look to christ for his guidance and learn to break our sin habits. if we refuse to look at our sin, we will continue to do them.

You are either serving God, or you are playing games on sunday and may be deceiving many on here and many in real life..but at the end of the day, your tree will either be fruitfull or it will be barren. You are either resisting God by not being Holy and right in his eyes and by his spirit(read this..should i tell you in spanish so we can understand each other?) Nobody is appealing to works, but you HAD BETTER have some works..and YOU HAD BETTER have fruit..
otherwise, you lie when you say you are of the faith..
you can fool me..you cannot fool God.

How much fruit is enough fruit to be saved? is this not the same moral directive which states we have to stop sin or we will lose salvation? both are placing a guideline of the ability of man to do this, or else he will not be saved??

 

[rauleetoe]

rauleetoe...is there anything in this passage on Wesleyan Holiness Theology you would disagree with?
do you see any glaring inconsistency?


"First, Wesley taught the classical doctrine of original sin and the absolute inability of human beings to save themselves through virtuous works.[iii] As with the Protestant Reformers, Luther and Calvin, Wesley held that Adam’s disobedience plunged the human race into a matrix of sin from which, barring divine intervention, there is no escape. Departing from the Reformers, however, Wesley rejected their notions of election, predestination, irresistible grace and the like as matters of opinion. He believed that these ideas not only did not reflect the teaching of the Bible and the early church, but also that they did not portray accurately the character or work of a loving God. Instead, following St. Paul’s discussions of law and gospel, sin and justification in Galatians and Romans, Wesley insisted that the grace of God is freely available to all who would hear the gospel, repent, and believe; grace precedes faith so that the choice to believe is uncoerced and free. The doctrine of prevenient grace (“grace that goes before”), which Wesley gleaned from the church fathers, points to a God who saves the lost without transgressing their moral freedom to choose. Such grace enables the individual to repent of their sins and to believe in Jesus Christ."

Asbury University | Wesleyan-Holiness Theology < click

I am trying to understand what inconsistency you claim to see..

 

[tribesman]

Who said we are to seek justifying ourselves in our actions?

It's a matter of focus, friend. And it is clear where all synergist teachings end up there.

If any good is to be found in you..in I, in any it is all God..I never said otherwise. But does this excuse you or anyone to simply point to your election? Or do you be encouraged to live for God? I detest the word games some play..if you are serving God, then amen..yes..but if you are simply wanting to trap me into your games with words..then good luck in trying to stump me. You are either of God or not..Calvin did not die for you..neither did Piper..or McArthur..you have better have assurance in you being saved..

Sighs...you talk about word games and say things like that...? What if someone asked you: did Wesley die for you? The difference between our views here is where we put our trust.

The way around seems to me that you appeal only to grace(show me otherwise that it is not what you are implying) and that is false Grace..and this is exactly which those who embrace holiness wanted to avoid, justifying sin..

No justifying of sin at all. The problem is that "holiness" tradition has a shallow concept of sin. You don't even see your own sin. To deny any sin being sin is justifying it.

and this tribesman, is the fallacy of calvinism..because logically the calvinist will say, I am good. I do not need to live for him(Please tell me this is not what you are implying)

This is not implied at all.

I can only go by what it seems it is that you are saying and promoting. I do hope i am reading it wrong and that you are not appealing to grace, as many high calvinists i know personally in real life have and do not have any desire to be right before God but merely point to their theologial stance aka their election. if it is..then you need to repent.

Your experience for good or bad of some "calvinists" of whatever kind I can not answer for as you understand. Of course we must live for God. Again, it is a matter of what inspires and motivates us in walking the walk. Contrary to "holiness" tradition I'd stay firm on God's work to that end, not any my own ability.

 

[tribesman]

It says in God's word to be Holy as he is Holy..and in 1 thessalonias 4:3 that he has not called us to uncleanliness but unto holiness. Do you choose to ignore what is written there because it is not the
easy thing to do?
1 john 3 clearly says that the believer can no longer practice sin,because God's seed is in him(so much a do it yourself christianity accusation there)

1 thessalonians 4:8 clearly says that if you ignore this message to be called unto holiness..you are not ignoring Raul, or those holiness minded folks you despise..You ignore God, who has given his Holy spirit to live in you..

do what you will..but read it for yourself..

Are you holy as God is holy (don't redefine or lower that standard) or are you just talking?

If you are not holy as God is holy and perfect as God is perfect then when did you confess your sins last time (and receive absolution)?

Are you just here to tell others to repent, thinking you have nothing to repent from?

Please let us know.

 

[progressivenerdgirl]

What of those who were under the Law? Were they compelled by God to obey those laws or did they choose to obey them? If there were consequences of breaking a particular law, then it would seem that they had a choice to obey, not compellingly, but as beings able to decide. As Scripture mentions: Choose you this day whom you shall follow......As for me, I shall.......

If we are born deprived of any desires to do good, then my Lord stands corrected when He said: if your earthly fathers know how to give good gifts..... Or the time when Abel wanted to please the Lord, and within himself, he decided to give unto God a pleasing offering of thanksgiving. Or the man who decided that living in a pig pen was not his desires, but that through remorse of the heart, he sought forgiveness from his father.

Indeed, we are only deprived when we desire to remain so.

And due to the fallen nature of man without God's grace compelling us we will always desire to remain so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And due to the fallen nature of man without God's grace compelling us we will always desire to remain so.

which is why if we do not trust God. and give it all to him, we will not be born again, and never lose the desire to remain to do so. Even if we become religious and think we aqre living for God. we are fooling ourselves into thinking we disire to do good, when in reality all we have changed is what types of sin we commit.

 

[rauleetoe]

Are you holy as God is holy (don't redefine or lower that standard) or are you just talking?

If you are not holy as God is holy and perfect as God is perfect then when did you confess your sins last time (and receive absolution)?

Are you just here to tell others to repent, thinking you have nothing to repent from?

Please let us know.

I have embraced the Biblical standard for Holiness..and do not seek to justify sin..if this is what you are asking. If you truly have the seed of God in you, then why do you seek to justify sin? I do not come here to tell others to repent..but to lovingly tell you that if you are in sin, your theology will not be sufficient to save you. God has a standard..and that is for all believers..examine to see if you are in the faith. This is a good thing to do. Only you know if you are honest or being disingenuous. If this offends you or puts you on the defensive, this was not the intention, but i can sleep better at night knowing i am doing that which i would want done for me. Speak the truth. God enables a man to be right and holy..if you hold onto the concept that you are a sinner still, you live that belief out in your life,choices and actions. Yes i once was a sinner, but now i choose day by day..minute by minute..to live right. So no..i am not a 'sinner' I need God every waking moment..this is an hour to hour thing..as John Wesley said, The holiest of men still need Christ as their prophet..
Just because you seek to live right never implies you do this without God enabling you first to do so. Those who do not wish to receive this message maybe wish to see just how much they can get away with and still consider themselves Christian..i for one do not wish to be deceived any longer.

So, whether you hold onto calvinism from here on or not..the holy and right live is available to you as well, but you need to embrace that..I suggest you read about what true holiness is..it is not works based at all. It is Spirit lead living.

 

[progressivenerdgirl]

which is why if we do not trust God. and give it all to him, we will not be born again, and never lose the desire to remain to do so. Even if we become religious and think we aqre living for God. we are fooling ourselves into thinking we disire to do good, when in reality all we have changed is what types of sin we commit.

We can not trust God or give it all to him unless he makes us. I am talking predestination and grace-alone here. I do not believe in the cooperation of the sinner. Godliness is a result, not a cause.

 

[Skinski7]

Scott:
i guess it's your assertion that an hypothetical man who:

asserts he is saved and walking in the light for, say, 17 years....he goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, and yet himself falls into the grip of a particular sin, in say, year 18......was never saved at all?

what if he now says he was never saved at all? can we trust anything he says based on his previous professions for nearly 2 decades?

what would your assessment of that hypothetical man's actual condition, past and present be?

was he deliberately lying to himself and others about being saved and walking in righteousness for 17 years, while making a conscious free-will choice to proceed to commit horrendous crimes against God Almighty while yet claiming to have fellowship with Him?

how does that man actually get saved?
how can he tell he is saved, if he thought he was for so long previously?

can we get this important discussion to take some real-life shape?
thanks Scott.
zone

Not at all.

That problem is only an issue when one views salvation in an abstract manner where redemption is disconnected from the actual present conscious state of the redeemed person. When one views salvation in this manner there is no possible way to tell if one is saved or not because there is no actual "standard of measure" in the present walk in regards to what one has been actually saved from. This is because salvation is only in the context of being "saved from the PUNISHMENT due."


If, on the other hand, salvation is viewed as a present and active condition of actually being set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust and the bondage it induced, as well as having been reconciled to God and pardoned for previous rebellion then it is clearly evident that one can be "saved" at one time and not "saved" later on.

A good analogy is Israel in bondage to the Egyptians. When they were delivered into the wilderness were they still in bondage in Egypt? Of course not.

Is a Christian who is delivered from the bondage of sin wrought through the corruption of lust are they still in bondage to sin? There is no possible way they can be otherwise "deliverance" has no real meaning.

You see when salvation is viewed in an abstract manner the "deliverance" is merely a mental abstraction instead of a present reality. This is why so many Christian self help books are aimed at "discovering who you are in Christ." Do a Google search on the phrase "who you are in Christ" and you will see what I mean.

The modern concept of salvation if put into the context of Israel in Egypt would have Israel having been set free while they still remained in slavery. Think about that, isn't that exactly how salvation is generally presented? When anyone tries to teach that Israel is actually, in reality, delivered from their bondage it is deemed heresy to most people. Very few seem to be able to conceive the notion that a Christian can truly be delivered from the bondage of sin. The root of the issue is the sin nature teaching which mandates that the bondage in this life never stops, hence the Romans 7 wretch.

Let's take a closer look at the example you presented...

asserts he is saved and walking in the light for, say, 17 years....he goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, and yet himself falls into the grip of a particular sin, in say, year 18......was never saved at all?

So we have a man who for 17 years goes about preaching repentance, holiness, cessation of sin, (and walks in it too I assume) and then falls into the group of a particular sin in year 18.

Was this man never saved at all? Or could this man be described as this...

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I think Peter answers that question very clearly. One can indeed escape the corruption in the world through lust, can indeed cease from yielding to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God, can indeed become a partaker of the Holy Spirit and can indeed be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ AND THEN fall back into the bondage of sin.

This is why a Christian must do this...

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

This is a spiritual war and it is the souls of men that are at stake.

So how can one know if they are saved? Well the Bible says things like this...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. Therefore if we are violating His commandments and walking our own way then we can be sure we don't know Him. The love of God is perfected in those who "keep" His word.

Here is another very important passage which quite simply speaks for itself.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Here is another key passage...

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

There is no possible way one can be abiding in Jesus Christ and in rebellion to Him at the same time. Serving two masters is absolutely impossible, the scriptures so clearly testify against it.

This is why it is folly to disconnect the walk in the flesh from the walk in the Spirit. Salvation is a present active state of abiding in Jesus Christ where one is overcoming the things of the world.

Any individual who is still in rebellion to God is not abiding in Christ and is not saved. They may have bought into a deceptive theology which teaches them otherwise but these people need to dig deep into the Scriptures for themselves and BELIEVE what they teach. If they don't they will perish in their rebellion.

I hope this helps.