The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’
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Through being broken on the rock of Christ via a godly sorrow (wrought by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in the world) which works a genuine repentance whereby the mind truly changes (necessitating a change in action). The rebellion in the heart is completely purged through this repentance and a submissive and humble former rebel remains. God then raises this person up by His power and brings them from darkness to light, cleanses them of their past rebellion via the blood of Christ and they are then reconciled to God whereby they can then serve Him acceptably in truth with pure motives.
It is then that God will teach them and purge them of all unrighteousness (not rebellion for the rebellion has already ceased) to bring them into the perfect image of His Son.
It is then that God will teach them and purge them of all unrighteousness (not rebellion for the rebellion has already ceased) to bring them into the perfect image of His Son.
Wesley confessed as a dying man he NEVER BELIEVED.
they need Jesus as a prophet??
"The holiest of men still need Christ as their prophet.??? < Islam says the same!
why are you appealing to wesley while condemning others for appealing to calvin or luther or better still, their own consciences and the witness of the Spirit that they are the children of God?
i love you raul, but really, i see very little of Christ Crucified for our sins AND RAISED FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION from you.
and nothing on confession of sins...this is deadly territory! it creates Pharisees
were the Corinthians called brothers?
what were some of their sins?
why is that letter included at all?
they need Jesus as a prophet??
"The holiest of men still need Christ as their prophet.??? < Islam says the same!
why are you appealing to wesley while condemning others for appealing to calvin or luther or better still, their own consciences and the witness of the Spirit that they are the children of God?
i love you raul, but really, i see very little of Christ Crucified for our sins AND RAISED FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION from you.
and nothing on confession of sins...this is deadly territory! it creates Pharisees
were the Corinthians called brothers?
what were some of their sins?
why is that letter included at all?
I am not justifying sin. That is a false accusation. And that false accusation just tells me where you're coming from.
You are concerned about the sins of others but not your own sins. Should ring a bell for you. But does it?
You didn't answer the question if you are holy as God is holy and perfect as God is perfect. Are you or are you not? If you claim you are, how does it work?
Christ as prophet is OK? No need to confess any sins, because you have now "victory over all sin" and is dispositionally sin free in word, thought and action? If you happened NOT to "choose the right" at every minute will you become a sinner again then, needing to be born again again?
I believe you are grossly deceived regarding the biblical concept of sin. And therefore goes the same as for justification.
This quote taken out of context I have little or no problem with. The problem is the shallow and hyprocrital sin concept that the wesleyan tradition has embraced.
You are concerned about the sins of others but not your own sins. Should ring a bell for you. But does it?
You didn't answer the question if you are holy as God is holy and perfect as God is perfect. Are you or are you not? If you claim you are, how does it work?
Christ as prophet is OK? No need to confess any sins, because you have now "victory over all sin" and is dispositionally sin free in word, thought and action? If you happened NOT to "choose the right" at every minute will you become a sinner again then, needing to be born again again?
I believe you are grossly deceived regarding the biblical concept of sin. And therefore goes the same as for justification.
This quote taken out of context I have little or no problem with. The problem is the shallow and hyprocrital sin concept that the wesleyan tradition has embraced.
R
It's a matter of focus, friend. And it is clear where all synergist teachings end up there.------
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If you mean end up where one is actually forthright about living for God..then yes..Amen. This is my desire..but can you be forthright about what 5 point calvinism truly teaches? That is the question
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word games and say things like that...? What if someone asked you: did Wesley die for you? The difference between our views here is where we put our trust.
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Sadly it is what many calvinists that i have spoken to, and even proponents of OSAS do, is take what one said and twist it to mean something that one never implied or never said. I never said good works save you..but they are a necessary confirmation of a true christian conversion..no election, not of Calvin..not of whatever church you belong to could save you, sadly many calvinists point to TULIP and election as their salvation, ive even had some tell me i am condemend for not accepting TULIP. I could not make this stuff up. No i never said Wesley died for me..But he had much good to say..sadly many other 'protestants' do not receive what it means to be right..and that its not just an external work..not only are we covere in the blood but this sacrifice actually makes us right and empowers us, by God's spirit to live right! Why can you not accept this?
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No justifying of sin at all. The problem is that "holiness" tradition has a shallow concept of sin. You don't even see your own sin. To deny any sin being sin is justifying it.-----
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Seeking to be right and live right and not focusing on an alleged election as many 5 point calvinists do, if that is minimizing sin in your eyes then you are not truly wanting to see that anyone who seeks to live for God actually hates sin, and the one who points to only grace without having any responsibility on his or her own behalf seeks to justify his being sinfull and loves sin more than he loves God. Your choice.
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This is not implied at all.--
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It very much is actually..its the logical conclusion all calvinist's should be ok and honest enough about to take their theological views to.
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Your experience for good or bad of some "calvinists" of whatever kind I can not answer for as you understand. Of course we must live for God. Again, it is a matter of what inspires and motivates us in walking the walk. Contrary to "holiness" tradition I'd stay firm on God's work to that end, not any my own ability.-----
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The only 'good calvinists' who i have seen that are truly good and truly bad are i must have to say, the Westboro baptists..because they let the chips fall wherethey may..they say it with conviction..God hates Gays..and all the other venom that they spew. That said, you being an alleged good calvinist should have no problem picketing with them and amening them..after all, they are merely sincere.
As far as walking it seems that you do not have much interest in walking..why even mention it..if God's got you, then keep on sinning! After all, you are elect..and nothing will ever sever that tie from God, according to the P in TULIP. so go on..keep sinning. This is what calvinism teaches..
You never had read any book on holiness..if you did..you would see that this is all done by God's spirit..i said it before..maybe ill say it in spanish so you can understand..
Solamente por el espiritu de Dios se hacen estas cosas! When did i say that I or anyone could do anything apart from God..even the good Lutheran Zone agrees with me..yet you have not enough sense to stick with what is truly said.
Hmm..this resonates with others ive spoken to here..
Guess crossfire was right about you guys..
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If you mean end up where one is actually forthright about living for God..then yes..Amen. This is my desire..but can you be forthright about what 5 point calvinism truly teaches? That is the question
-----
word games and say things like that...? What if someone asked you: did Wesley die for you? The difference between our views here is where we put our trust.
-----------
Sadly it is what many calvinists that i have spoken to, and even proponents of OSAS do, is take what one said and twist it to mean something that one never implied or never said. I never said good works save you..but they are a necessary confirmation of a true christian conversion..no election, not of Calvin..not of whatever church you belong to could save you, sadly many calvinists point to TULIP and election as their salvation, ive even had some tell me i am condemend for not accepting TULIP. I could not make this stuff up. No i never said Wesley died for me..But he had much good to say..sadly many other 'protestants' do not receive what it means to be right..and that its not just an external work..not only are we covere in the blood but this sacrifice actually makes us right and empowers us, by God's spirit to live right! Why can you not accept this?
-------------------------------------
No justifying of sin at all. The problem is that "holiness" tradition has a shallow concept of sin. You don't even see your own sin. To deny any sin being sin is justifying it.-----
--------------
Seeking to be right and live right and not focusing on an alleged election as many 5 point calvinists do, if that is minimizing sin in your eyes then you are not truly wanting to see that anyone who seeks to live for God actually hates sin, and the one who points to only grace without having any responsibility on his or her own behalf seeks to justify his being sinfull and loves sin more than he loves God. Your choice.
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This is not implied at all.--
------
It very much is actually..its the logical conclusion all calvinist's should be ok and honest enough about to take their theological views to.
---------------------------------------
Your experience for good or bad of some "calvinists" of whatever kind I can not answer for as you understand. Of course we must live for God. Again, it is a matter of what inspires and motivates us in walking the walk. Contrary to "holiness" tradition I'd stay firm on God's work to that end, not any my own ability.-----
---------
The only 'good calvinists' who i have seen that are truly good and truly bad are i must have to say, the Westboro baptists..because they let the chips fall wherethey may..they say it with conviction..God hates Gays..and all the other venom that they spew. That said, you being an alleged good calvinist should have no problem picketing with them and amening them..after all, they are merely sincere.
As far as walking it seems that you do not have much interest in walking..why even mention it..if God's got you, then keep on sinning! After all, you are elect..and nothing will ever sever that tie from God, according to the P in TULIP. so go on..keep sinning. This is what calvinism teaches..
You never had read any book on holiness..if you did..you would see that this is all done by God's spirit..i said it before..maybe ill say it in spanish so you can understand..
Solamente por el espiritu de Dios se hacen estas cosas! When did i say that I or anyone could do anything apart from God..even the good Lutheran Zone agrees with me..yet you have not enough sense to stick with what is truly said.
Hmm..this resonates with others ive spoken to here..
Guess crossfire was right about you guys..
E
This is wrong. if God had wanted to make us believe in him, he would have made adam never sin, he would make us all come to him.
I am taking the predestination and grace alone journey to. He predestinates based on foreknowledge of who would "call out on the name of the lord to be saved"
Faith is not a work of man, It is man standing still an placing his eternity in the hands of someone else. Which goes against out human desire and nature. Which is why it is so hard. and why so few will enter by the narrow gate.
man can not take credit for faith. unless he places faith in self.
I am taking the predestination and grace alone journey to. He predestinates based on foreknowledge of who would "call out on the name of the lord to be saved"
Faith is not a work of man, It is man standing still an placing his eternity in the hands of someone else. Which goes against out human desire and nature. Which is why it is so hard. and why so few will enter by the narrow gate.
man can not take credit for faith. unless he places faith in self.
E
they are caught between a rock and a hard place. If they could see their sin and admit it, they would have to admit they are no more righteous than anyone else. And their whole doctrinal belief would crumble.
so they have to hide it. That is why so many of them fall away from god and give up. because instead of confessing their sin to one another, they have to hide it for fear.. and eventually it catches up to them. or they remain blind their whole lives, and never find the love of God which he wants to give all men.
so they have to hide it. That is why so many of them fall away from god and give up. because instead of confessing their sin to one another, they have to hide it for fear.. and eventually it catches up to them. or they remain blind their whole lives, and never find the love of God which he wants to give all men.
R
Actually i am more concerned about the possibility of you being in heaven than I am with you accepting or liking me or agreeing with me. If offense leads you to be convicted or to further study this concept of true holiness, then my work is done. I do sincerely hope that you see that i am merely speaking to you as i wish others would have when i was in sin, nope..they didnt tell me. But he was sincerely convinced i was not of the 'elect' so he did nothing to point me in the right direction. His bad theology lead him to bad behavior. No i am not better than you, or anyone on here. This holy life is also available to you, package it in another form if you wish..if 'holiness' is a dirty word..fine..call it spirit lead right living..or whatever. But its truly biblical. We are to appeal to more than grace, we are to respond to grace by spirit lead right living. I would rather you be offended by me and me encourage you to live for God, than keep my mouth closed and answer to God one day. Holy living works by God's spirit..did you not read that before? Or are you more interested in arguing?
The holy spirit leads us and teaches us and guides us into all truth..like john 14 says..What part of that did you not get?
Sadly some calvinists are more election minded than spirit minded..yet their actions prove they are not elect..but merely have a form of Godliness, but denying it's power.
The holy spirit leads us and teaches us and guides us into all truth..like john 14 says..What part of that did you not get?
Sadly some calvinists are more election minded than spirit minded..yet their actions prove they are not elect..but merely have a form of Godliness, but denying it's power.
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Many today hold to a shallow concept of sin, and will thus ultimately deceive themselves by imagining and boasting that they are "obedient to God's law" and "have victory over all sin". This is done by lowering the standard that God has set up for righteousness, resulting in self-righteousness and ultimately hypocrisy. Ever since arminian-methodist John Wesley was asked if he thought the evil inclinations of the heart were sinful and he replying in the negative: "I don't call that sin" (thinking sin is only about external matters) there has been a widespread embracing of this heresy.
C
Zone,
Sorry Zone, I am not making myself clear. Of course, for salvational reasonings, the Law was compelled to be obeyed to obtain their righteousness. But, was it not said of them, 'we shall obey all things which is written therein?' Which implies that they freely choose to obey the Law as a means of righteousness (not justification which came by Jesus)? This being so, inasmuch as Jesus willfully obeyed God, is obedience compelled or is it a choice? To this, I say that we, as being, freely choice God and thus, are not so deprived that we cannot but choose the wrong path as were mentioned in the orignal post I replied to. If we can only make the wrong choice, then how have we, as a society, continued to do good unto others.
Sorry Zone, I am not making myself clear. Of course, for salvational reasonings, the Law was compelled to be obeyed to obtain their righteousness. But, was it not said of them, 'we shall obey all things which is written therein?' Which implies that they freely choose to obey the Law as a means of righteousness (not justification which came by Jesus)? This being so, inasmuch as Jesus willfully obeyed God, is obedience compelled or is it a choice? To this, I say that we, as being, freely choice God and thus, are not so deprived that we cannot but choose the wrong path as were mentioned in the orignal post I replied to. If we can only make the wrong choice, then how have we, as a society, continued to do good unto others.
E
so true.. I just look to the first command. To love the Lord our God with all our heart mind and soul. What does this mean? it means we NEVER THINK ABOUT SELF EVEN ONE IOTA. we give it all to god.
this command, if we really looked at it for its true meaning would condemn ever man woman and child every day of their lives. For you can;t tell me that at least once a day (most likely many times a day) we are not self focused in anything.
then even the second. Love neighbor as self. Who is our neighbor? Anyone we come in contact with. again, tell me that not once a day you do not have a bad thought concerning a neighbor, and I would say you have decieved yourself.
the problem is we focus on don't murder, commit adultery, get drunk. etc etc. and think to ourselves that since we do not do these "grave sins' we must be righteous.
E
This is why Jesus said he went to the sinner and not to the righteous (self deceived) because if a person can not admit he is a sinner and in need of a savior. they would never accept him.
Sadly much of the church have taken on this self deceived attitude. and think because they have stopped the "overt sins" they deem as grave, they must be holy and right themselves. Thus they judge others, when they stand judged themselves. and they can't see it. Which is just as dangerous as any licentious gospel. in fact, probably more dangerous. A licentious person can be shown his sin, where a legalist can not. thus a licentious person has more hope to repent. (not that they ever will)
Sadly much of the church have taken on this self deceived attitude. and think because they have stopped the "overt sins" they deem as grave, they must be holy and right themselves. Thus they judge others, when they stand judged themselves. and they can't see it. Which is just as dangerous as any licentious gospel. in fact, probably more dangerous. A licentious person can be shown his sin, where a legalist can not. thus a licentious person has more hope to repent. (not that they ever will)
E
Thanks.. But we still fail to do this on a daily basis. would you not agree??
If stopping sin was so easy. we would not need Christ, the law would be very effective. We need all our strength, added to gods strength to even come close to being able to be "holy" because our strength is never enough, but if we do not put in effort. we will utterly fail. God will not force us to do anything
I believe we are born in sin, no one is/was born sinless except Jesus thus we need to be born again,we need cleansing of our hearts by the Savior's blood and sanctification, whereby we are enabled to serve God.
Passages like these prove inbred sin:
Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. No parent has to teach their child how to lie before they start lying once they can speak. Also, just put two two-year-olds in a room with one very appealing toy and watch the outcome...10 minutes later"I got it first", "No I got it first, it's mine", "Mama, she hit me". Oh Lord...Hahaha.
This tendency to rebellion is evident in every child that is why proverbs 22:15 says the rod of discipline drives away foolishness in the heart of a child. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him (Prov 22:15).
The problem is when people use original sin as an excuse for continuous disobedience after salvation. This will not be a valid excuse on Judgment day. God has provided us with everything we need for godly living by His power and causes us to walk in His statues by His divine grace.
2 Peter 1:3- According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Passages like these prove inbred sin:
Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. No parent has to teach their child how to lie before they start lying once they can speak. Also, just put two two-year-olds in a room with one very appealing toy and watch the outcome...10 minutes later"I got it first", "No I got it first, it's mine", "Mama, she hit me". Oh Lord...Hahaha.
This tendency to rebellion is evident in every child that is why proverbs 22:15 says the rod of discipline drives away foolishness in the heart of a child. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him (Prov 22:15).
The problem is when people use original sin as an excuse for continuous disobedience after salvation. This will not be a valid excuse on Judgment day. God has provided us with everything we need for godly living by His power and causes us to walk in His statues by His divine grace.
2 Peter 1:3- According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
I don't know how many times the Lord has convicted me of things I thought I was doing was right and He showed me that they were not. I believe He has shown me it's a ongoing process to conform us into the image of Christ. He has shown me it's not just cleaning the outside but to deal with the things that come out of the heart. And it goes into our thoughts and even how we say something. It's not just the major things that we think we have down but it's also the subtle little things that we never think of. He sees it and knows it all. I worry about those that think that somehow we have it all down because Paul says if we are God's children He will chastise us. If we really think about what did Jesus mean when He said if you even look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery. Jesus is showing that what God means by Holy is so high,wide and deep it is so far beyond what we can even begin to imagine.