So as a source for discussion, where are you looking to go with this verse? I know the devil is consistently out to deceive, and I know that this can only be done through flesh where all sin has been condemned to, and that we are to believe by the operation of God that we are dead to flesh and alive to God through Christ God's Son that died in our stead, and thus rose again to give us life those that believe, and Ithink Romans 6:1 -11 is very clear to what I just said Thanks
Homwardbound
Admittedly, I did not ask the question in a very clear manner with the desired understanding in mind.
If we crucify our will, we can no longer meaningfully say it is "free" because, quite frankly, it isn't at that point. It would be his will.
- Not I who lives, but Christ.
- Your will be done, not mine.
- Etc.
Is it possible for the same basic concept to be true regarding the devil, and those who are unregenerate?
John 8:44
You
belong to your father, the devil, and you
want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Notice the words, "belong" and "Want", with the gravity that those hold.
If our will (want) prior to regeneration belongs to the devil, how can we meaningfully say that that will is free?
If he owns us, isn't he our master? Aren't we his slave?
This is where the Ransom Theory of Atonement actually got a little bit right. (It's still mostly heresy though, as it denies Penal Substitution)
1 Timothy 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a
ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Mark 10:45
English Standard Version (ESV)
45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a
ransom for many.”
Maybe that makes the issue a little less muddy compared to how I first put it.
Additionally, the notion of libertarian free will (especially libertarian free will) is totally incoherent with reality and scripture.
Our will is in part governed by our nature. I cannot be what I am not. I am a human, not an ocean-dwelling mammal. As a result of this reality, I am unable to will myself into being an animal that I am not, such as a dolphin.
Thus, the will has limits and isn't freely free.
J. P. Moreland who as far as I know is a Libertarian Free Willy, says in a book of his: "The ability [to choose] is categorical. It is not conditional on anything changing in order to obtain a different result."
Yet, we know that our will is limited to our conditions. I am currently sitting in my dorm room on my laptop, and thus as a result I cannot will myself to turn the ignition of my vehicle.
I can desire it, but I cannot will it to happen.
Our will is also limited by our desires, to a lesser extent. Desire provides a strong influence to sin, as an example.
James 1:14-15
14 but each one is tempted when,
by his own evil desire, he is
dragged away and enticed.
15 Then, after
desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Libertarian free will is a secular philosophy, and has some tenets that are incompatible with even those who claim it as their own.
J.P. Moreland says, "For Libertarians, it is
only if agents are first causes, unmoved movers, that they have the control necessary for freedom. An agent
must be the absolute, originating source of his own actions to be in control. If, as compatibilists picture it, an agent is just a theater through which a chain of instrumental causes passes, then there is no real control. Further, the control that an unmoved mover exercises in free action is a dual control: it is the power to exercise his own ability to act or to refrain from exercising his own ability to act."
Even within Libertarian Free Will as a philosophy, there is no freedom.
If we go to the foreknowledge of God as the libertarian sees it (which is to lower it to another secular philosophy) it get's even worse. It becomes more fatalistic than even many hyper-Calvinists.
To put it this way: If God knows the future, and what is already going to happen, you can't change the future. It's already said and done, as far as the timeline is concerned.
Let's take the life of Benjamin Franklin (it was an easy timeline to find for illustrative purposes).
Even from before the creation of the universe Benny's life was going to occur exactly as it has, because God knew the future, and we can't change the future/get outside of God's knowing the future.
Not very "free", is it?
Thus our will is limited by:
- Our Nature
- Our Conditions
- Our Desires (to a lesser degree)
- The knowledge of God
Citation for J. P. Moreland:
DeWeese, Garrett J., and James Porter Moreland.
Philosophy Made Slightly Less Difficult: A Beginner's Guide to Life's Big Questions. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2005. Print. P.126-127
