The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[PS]

I have just read in Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

And in John 1 we are told Jesus is the Word.

Perhaps nothing to do with the thread but I thought it was wonderful.

What I do think is relevant to the thread is this in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

From this I lean the importance of Our faith, I learn that we must believe in Him if WE want to draw near to Him and He rewards those who Seek Him.

So we can seek God and draw near to Him ourselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned


metron: a measure
Original Word: μέτρον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: metron
Phonetic Spelling: (met'-ron)
Short Definition: a measure, measuring rod
Definition: a measure, whether lineal or cubic; a measuring rod.

3358 métron – properly, a measure (the actual measure itself); (figuratively) the basis for determining what is enough (or not enough), what is fair (or not fair), etc.

3358 /métron ("standard, measure") is the controlling basis by which something is determined as acceptable or unacceptable – preeminently rooting to the Lord Himself as His being is the only ultimate measure of truth.



pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).



merizó: to divide
Original Word: μερίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: merizó
Phonetic Spelling: (mer-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I divide, part, share
Definition: I divide into parts, divide, part, share, distribute; mid: I share, take part in a partitioning; I distract.

3307 merízō(from 3313 /méros, "a single part, member") – properly, to divide, distribute into parts (portions), i.e. separate (distinguish) one part from another.

[3307 /merízō can be used positively meaning "distribute as properly needed" (1 Cor 7:17.]

non of these answer the question. paul made that statement about people who had already been saved, thus you can not twust it to mean it was given to someone who had not yet been saved.

he is saying we all have different measures of faith. some are babies. some are children. some are mature adults.

can not our faith grow? and how does that faith grow?? and can it fade? how does it fade??

I can have faith he saved me (all it takes is that of a mustard seed) and not have faith in areas of my life until I grow in those areas. that is the context of what paul is talking about. so lets please not try to twist it to say God gave us a measure of faith in order to save us. Unless you think we have different measures of salvation.. which I KNOW you do not believe. we ware either saved, or not saved, no in between, nor more saved or less saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have just read in Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

And in John 1 we are told Jesus is the Word.

Perhaps nothing to do with the thread but I thought it was wonderful.

What I do think is relevant to the thread is this in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

From this I lean the importance of Our faith, I learn that we must believe in Him if WE want to draw near to Him and He rewards those who Seek Him.

So we can seek God and draw near to Him ourselves.

is your faith pure though? or is it mere belief? and what would the difference be?

 

[zone]

I used to think I beieved in God, and maybe I did, but at that time I did not yet believe God, Yahweh.

One night, heart-broken and in the dark, I prayed to "You are Who you are." Yahweh, God, will in no wise turn away a broken heart. He did not turn me away. He answered me in a dream. The following day thinking to Him I kept saying, "Mankind is evil, man is so wicked, man is so...wait just a moment, I am a man." At this realization I thought further, "YOU are It.." Suddenly everything turned to light and the light entered me, and I understood things I had never even heard before.

Along with this infilling of Yahweh, God's Spirit came the gift of faith, the great difference between believing in God and believing God. He is so good all of the time, amen.

 

[zone]

non of these answer the question. paul made that statement about people who had already been saved, thus you can not twust it to mean it was given to someone who had not yet been saved.

why does he have to give faith at all?
i thought we had it within ourselves?

 

[PS]

John 8:19
They [Pharisees] said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

That is right. If they knew Jesus they would know the Father. (Same person)

God is omnipresent in heaven and on earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why does he have to give faith at all?
i thought we had it within ourselves?

how can we have it in ourselves if the fact that if he did not do anything, we could not have faith??

are we trusting self. or someone else? could our faith save us apart from the work of Christ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Zone, can you tell us what you faith is in?? what are you trusting god for?

 

[SarahM777]

there is still a problem with this what did you call it? Parable?

1. The note was given to all the workers. as was the glasses.
2. You state all the workers did not look in their inbox. why was this? was they tricked by the boss (satan) into not looking? Was the true boss (the king) hiding something from them. and got them not to look in the box. Or did the workers just not know they had an inbox (in which case, why did both bosses hide this fact from them? They do not seem like very moral bosses by doing this. In fact quite the opposite. By their own deception and arrogant pride. they made sure many did not want to look at the box, or hid the box so that the thing which could set them free from them. so they they would not find it.
3. Either way, the "king" as you call it was not a very loving king, or he would have made sure everyone knew about the box so they could chose to look at it or not. worse yet. he did not tell them that something was in it which could make their lives so much better.
4. You stated the glasses represent faith? This is not true. The glasses was just the interpretor of the words written their in. The worker would still have to chose to have faith in what was said, or not. Not to mention. the glasses was given to everyone. so would nt everyone be able to understand if they just CHOSE to look?
5. How trustworthy was the king? He chose to let me know the box was there. But did not chose to send my sibling, who I happen to love very much, Keeping him from truth. Do you think I am going to trust a king who would do such an immoral thing such as keeping the one I love from truth.

also. Now that I know it is there. would I not be obliged to tell others this box is there? and that they should look in it also. I would not even have to tell them what is in it. The glasses are already their for them to interpret the note. All i would have to do is help direct them to it.

finally. You said I loved working in the filth. Well you see, your right. I love it. I do not even give credit to the boss. He just thinks he has control. I chose to work for him, and am doing what I willed to do in the first place.

Actually we have been given the answer

John 3

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

They hate the light and want nothing to do with it and they want nothing to do with God because He is light

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually we have been given the answer

John 3

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

They hate the light and want nothing to do with it and they want nothing to do with God because He is light

Amen and why? There3 evil dead's will be exposed. and they do not want that. so they hide from the truth, because they loved their dead's. God did not keep truth from them. they kept truth from themselves.

 

[zone]

where did faith come from? Who did all the work? Who made the promise? Who paid the price? Who offers the gift? answer these questions, and you have your answer as to where my faith came from. Notice. Nothing in those replies speak a thing about self. Faith in God is minus self. Because HE DID ALL THE WORK.

God.
as a gift.

 

[zone]

i'm going to throw in the towel on this one.
for now anyway.

here's my position: GOD GAVE ME SAVING FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST'S WORK.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God.
as a gift.

and what was his gift?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i'm going to throw in the towel on this one.
for now anyway.

here's my position: GOD GAVE ME SAVING FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST'S WORK.

so your afraid to say what your faith is in? why is that? it is not a trick question. I am just trying to get you to think.

 

[cfultz3]

Sowing is a work too.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Adding to one's faith is work.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I am not sure what the "faith alone" people do with 2Pet 1:5-11. "Faith Alone" is not even anywhere in the Bible. Martin Luther was wrong.

It is essential to make a distinction between the "works of the flesh/works of the law" and the "works of faith." The works of faith are absolutely essential in regards to the outcome of one's salvation.

Here is an article I wrote on the issue.
The Pearl of Great Price: Works of Faith versus Works of the Law

I missed this post to me, sorry.

Conclusively, faith without the works of faith (believe, love, resist temptation, etc) is dead. Perhaps this is what James, I think?, was saying when he said it. And once this is accepted, that faith is to have its own works, then we can see, we do those works not for our salvation, but because it was the roadmap given to us by our faith's Forerunner, Jesus the Christ. By faith we are saved, but a dead daith is no faith at all.

 

[cfultz3]

You say it "seems" to be a work. If you think these things are the work of man then I will question if you have experienced the things of which you speak. If you think you have to do any work in order to be saved then you are grossly deceived. These things mentioned above are but the work of God. They are the fruit of regeneration. They are not the work of man. Fruit of regeneration - not works of merit. Your problem is that you do not differ much enough between the regenerate and the unregenerate and their respective characteristics. The reason for that must be that you do not yet understand the gospel nor the nature of man and the absolute perfect holiness of God almighty.

Must one believe?
If the sinner must turn and seek God, is he regeneranted first while yet facing darkness? Must he not seek until God RAINS righteousness down upon him?

If faith is all passive, why does not God save all, instead of desiring all to come to Him? This itself implies that coming to God is not passive all the way, but a decision, inasmuch as it a decision to be a sinner.

The regenerated and the unregenerated both have this in common: a will, just as Jesus had one. The only difference between the two is the path they have chosen.

Gospel = whosoever will believe, shall not perish but will have everlasting life. Whosoever chooses Christ to follow, will be led Home. I understand the Gospel very well. We do the work of God by believing. Can it once be shown where the verb faith is passive on the person's part and not active? Come and follow me...active
trust me...active
love....active.

What is so wrong with concuring with God that His plan in Christ is the right way and that you choose to walk upon that path instead of the Law or according to your flesh?

What does God's perfect holiness have to do with what we are talking about? I understand that God is perfect and there is no shadow in Him, but what does that have to do with the decision to follow what has been set out for us to follow: the straight and narrow path?

 

[SarahM777]

I love the Forgiven poster and have that along with Thomas's boo he wrote about waht he painted and why it is vey enlighting

But how many people really take a good close look at it? How many people see what is in the man's hand on the left? I have that picture hanging in my bedroom and it's a reminder to me I was the same.

 

[rauleetoe]

Rauleetoe,

You received the email I sent?

Big 10-4 good buddy!!!!!!

 

[unclefester]

he took his focus off himself?
he was galloping toward Damascus to drag christians to their deaths.

at what point did he take his focus off himself and realize his 'faith' was misplaced?

i love you EG

when he heard the gospel of Christ..And finally understood his faith was wrong all along.

The gospel. the power of salvation TO ALL WHO BELIEVE.. The power of death to all who hear and reject.

love ya too sis, you know that!

Paul was clearly a chosen vessel of the Lord EG. Have to admit to being a tad puzzled here. You say salvation is ours to choose thru the exercising of our freewill. But you simultaneously disagree with those who claim that the saved can later choose to walk away from Christ (thru the same exercising of freewill). My question is only in regards to the sake of this discussion

Acts 9
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Damascus Road: Saul Converted

9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Ananias Baptizes Saul

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

 

[PS]

Some scriptures about freewill. Please nobody tell me freewill does not exist. Calvinists are just plain wrong.

Eze 3:7 NIV - But the house of Israel is not willing to listen to you because they are not willing to listen to me, for the whole house of Israel is hardened and obstinate.​

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Mat 23:37 NIV - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.​

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Deu 1:26 WEB - Notwithstanding, ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:​

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Deu 1:43 WEB - So I spoke to you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and presumptuously ascended the hill.​

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Deu 8:20 WEB - As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient to the voice of the LORD your God.​

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Jdg 2:17 WEB - And yet they would not hearken to their judges, but they went astray after other gods, and bowed themselves to them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; [but] they did not so.​

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2Ki 18:12 WEB - Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God , but transgressed his covenant, [and] all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear [them], nor do [them].​

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Psa 81:11 WEB - But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would not obey me.​

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Isa 28:12 WEB - To whom he said, This [is] the rest [with which] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.​

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Isa 30:15 WEB - For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.​

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Isa 42:24 WEB - Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient to his law.​

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Jer 13:11 WEB - For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave to me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be to me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

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Jer 29:19 WEB - Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD , which I sent to them by my servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.​

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Eze 20:8 WEB - But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken to me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.​

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Mat 22:3 WEB - And sent his servants to call them that were invited to the wedding: and they would not come.​

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Act 7:39 WEB - Whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,​

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