The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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About salvation. Calvinists are just PLAIN WRONG.

Anyone who is willing, "forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isa. 55:7.


Anyone who is willing, "return unto the Lord, thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hos. 14:1


Anyone who is willing, "turn ye even unto me with all your heart" Joel 2:12.


Anyone who is willing, "Seek ye me, and ye shall live," and again, "Seek the Lord, and ye shall live." Amos 5:4, 6.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,231
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Some scriptures about freewill. Please nobody tell me freewill does not exist. Calvinists are just plain wrong.

Eze 3:7 NIV - But the house of Israel is not willing to listen to you because they are not willing to listen to me, for the whole house of Israel is hardened and obstinate.



Mat 23:37 NIV - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.



Deu 1:26 WEB - Notwithstanding, ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:



Deu 1:43 WEB - So I spoke to you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and presumptuously ascended the hill.



Deu 8:20 WEB - As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient to the voice of the LORD your God.



Jdg 2:17 WEB - And yet they would not hearken to their judges, but they went astray after other gods, and bowed themselves to them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; [but] they did not so.



2Ki 18:12 WEB - Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God , but transgressed his covenant, [and] all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear [them], nor do [them].



Psa 81:11 WEB - But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would not obey me.



Isa 28:12 WEB - To whom he said, This [is] the rest [with which] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



Isa 30:15 WEB - For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.



Isa 42:24 WEB - Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient to his law.



Jer 13:11 WEB - For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave to me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be to me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.



Jer 29:19 WEB - Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD , which I sent to them by my servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.



Eze 20:8 WEB - But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken to me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.



Mat 22:3 WEB - And sent his servants to call them that were invited to the wedding: and they would not come.



Act 7:39 WEB - Whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,



Amen, and a most commendable presentation.... God bless you always, amen.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Some scriptures about freewill. Please nobody tell me freewill does not exist. Calvinists are just plain wrong.

Eze 3:7 NIV - But the house of Israel is not willing to listen to you because they are not willing to listen to me, for the whole house of Israel is hardened and obstinate.



Mat 23:37 NIV - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.



Deu 1:26 WEB - Notwithstanding, ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:



Deu 1:43 WEB - So I spoke to you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and presumptuously ascended the hill.



Deu 8:20 WEB - As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient to the voice of the LORD your God.



Jdg 2:17 WEB - And yet they would not hearken to their judges, but they went astray after other gods, and bowed themselves to them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; [but] they did not so.



2Ki 18:12 WEB - Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God , but transgressed his covenant, [and] all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear [them], nor do [them].



Psa 81:11 WEB - But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would not obey me.



Isa 28:12 WEB - To whom he said, This [is] the rest [with which] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



Isa 30:15 WEB - For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.



Isa 42:24 WEB - Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient to his law.



Jer 13:11 WEB - For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave to me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be to me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.



Jer 29:19 WEB - Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD , which I sent to them by my servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.



Eze 20:8 WEB - But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken to me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.



Mat 22:3 WEB - And sent his servants to call them that were invited to the wedding: and they would not come.



Act 7:39 WEB - Whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,



Has anyone notice these verses?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Has anyone notice these verses?
every one of them is about Israel whom God had chosen from ancient times, while the gentiles were excluded and without hope in the world.

would gentiles over in India at the time Christ walked the earth have been told to "return to Me"...."remember the Laws you were given since a child" etc?

what was Abram doing when God called him? worshipping idols prolly?

dunno.

fast forward to Paul's day (apostle to the gentiles) not far from Jerusalem:

Acts 17
Paul in Athens

16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.

would it have done any good for Paul to quote Deuteronomy or Jeremiah to the pagan greeks (unless the passages contained the Gospel)?

i don't know how much success he was having with the jews in athens....n.m. the pagans
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
every one of them is about Israel whom God had chosen from ancient times, while the gentiles were excluded and without hope in the world.
really? this sounds like something Scofield would say :p

What about Nineva? Or King davids grandmother or the many other gentiles who came to the knowledge of God during the time of Isreal?


would gentiles over in India at the time Christ walked the earth have been told to "return to Me"...."remember the Laws you were given since a child" etc?

Ok. now this I can see. But that is not the point. the point is God is telling unbelieving carnal isreal, who are not saved, to return to him. He is given them a choice. Is this not free will??


what was Abram doing when God called him? worshipping idols prolly?

dunno.
He was evidently a follower of God. thats why God went to him. God would not have gone to an idol worshiper.

f
ast forward to Paul's day (apostle to the gentiles) not far from Jerusalem:

Acts 17
Paul in Athens

16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.

would it have done any good for Paul to quote Deuteronomy or Jeremiah to the pagan greeks (unless the passages contained the Gospel)?

i don't know how much success he was having with the jews in athens....n.m. the pagans
Not sure what you mean by this passage.. Forgive me.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Sister,

My replies are not assumptions of what one believes, but merely my own thoughts.

every one of them is about Israel whom God had chosen from ancient times, while the gentiles were excluded and without hope in the world. Did not notice it was being spoken to those under the Old Covenant. How then do we now come to Christ if not by that same willingness to follow?

would gentiles over in India at the time Christ walked the earth have been told to "return to Me"...."remember the Laws you were given since a child" etc? Point taken. But I still need to ask: how do we come to Christ if not willfully?

what was Abram doing when God called him? worshipping idols prolly? Prolly in willful disobedience.

dunno. dido

fast forward to Paul's day (apostle to the gentiles) not far from Jerusalem: my head is spinning :)

Acts 17
Paul in Athens
16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols.17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.

would it have done any good for Paul to quote Deuteronomy or Jeremiah to the pagan greeks (unless the passages contained the Gospel)? Would it have done any good to have spoken of the Law? No. But what connection does this have to do with freewill? Even in the New Testament, we are told to 'Come and follow' Christ, to pick up our cross, to beleive, etc, and even more etc, and yet more etc. Did one's freewill die out with the putting-aside of the Law? How do we come to Christ now?

i don't know how much success he was having with the jews in athens....n.m. the pagans --from verses 4 and 12, he was having some success with both.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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really? this sounds like something Scofield would say :p
LOL EG!
nobody denies God set aside national Israel:)
the point is when the Promised Messiah came and Pentecost came, those who believed remained in the olive tree.
those who didn't were cut off.

God made a special point of sending Jonah.
they wouldn't have known anything without His Intervention.

and interesting that that episode is recorded as a type of the Gospel...

Or King davids grandmother or the many other gentiles who came to the knowledge of God during the time of Isreal?
God-fearers / strangers?
ya....they were included.
and? point being they were included in the multitude....the commonwealth of Israel.
only a remnant of the multitude has ever been saved.

Ok. now this I can see. But that is not the point. the point is God is telling unbelieving carnal isreal, who are not saved, to return to him. He is given them a choice. Is this not free will??
i don't deny we have a will, EG.
read or listen to Bondage of the Will.

and i don't deny God has provided evidence of Himself in creation, and His Scriptures have been with us for a long time.
The Holy Spirit is in the world, working.

but it says the god of this world has blinded the perishing! and the Cross is foolishness....did i set out to believe foolishness?

what i am saying is that, for ex....when God is pleading with Israel to return to Him, what is He always mentioning? He is continually sending them prophets, continually threatening, but always with the Promise attached. He is resaying stuff He already said...maybe we all heard it like they did...i don't think i did. i know i didn't. Lord's Prayer maybe?

Zechariah 7:12
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

what is He referring to here? look how far into these major prophets we are:

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 24:7
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

Isaiah 32:15
till the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest.

Joel 2:28
“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions

Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit

1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servantsc and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Fellowship of the Believers
42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43And awed came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.



^^ that was a long time ago, EG.

He was evidently a follower of God. thats why God went to him. God would not have gone to an idol worshiper.
Matthew 12:39
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.


Mark 4:11
New International Version (©1984)
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

New Living Translation (©2007)
He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders,

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables

??

do we understand the parables?
i think so...Jesus interpreted them all!

did we set out to even care about Him and His parables?
i don't think i did.

all i knew was this:



even that got lost along the way.
i dunno EG.

i didn't free-will my way to the Cross...i just didn't.
 
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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
every one of them is about Israel whom God had chosen from ancient times, while the gentiles were excluded and without hope in the world.

would gentiles over in India at the time Christ walked the earth have been told to "return to Me"...."remember the Laws you were given since a child" etc?

what was Abram doing when God called him? worshipping idols prolly?

dunno.

fast forward to Paul's day (apostle to the gentiles) not far from Jerusalem:

Acts 17
Paul in Athens

16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.

would it have done any good for Paul to quote Deuteronomy or Jeremiah to the pagan greeks (unless the passages contained the Gospel)?

i don't know how much success he was having with the jews in athens....n.m. the pagans
The point is they were exercising free will.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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The point is they were exercising free will.
cool.
you'll have a lot to boast about.
we already know that.

what about poor old Ham according to your teacher?
did he bring his BLACK SKIN and thick lips and good ability to do slave labor on himself?
did old Ham turn himself black by his own free will?

or did someone else's freewill turn his skin black?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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cool.
you'll have a lot to boast about.
we already know that.

what about poor old Ham according to your teacher?
did he bring his BLACK SKIN and thick lips and good ability to do slave labor on himself?
did old Ham turn himself black by his own free will?

or did someone else's freewill turn his skin black?
I believe everyone is predestined to be with God in Glory, including Jews and Gentiles and if some don't make it, then it is due to their disobedience, lack of faith and worship of other gods, whether it is money, power or other idols.

Whatever you think or say you cannot deny free will exists. You need to work it into your theology.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I believe everyone is predestined to be with God in Glory, including Jews and Gentiles and if some don't make it, then it is due to their disobedience, lack of faith and worship of other gods, whether it is money, power or other idols.

Whatever you think or say you cannot deny free will exists. You need to work it into your theology.
explain to me how Ham tunred black, please.
whose sin was it that caused him to be the serpent?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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explain to me how Ham tunred black, please.
whose sin was it that caused him to be the serpent?
I'm rusty on that, it was over fifty years since I was doing BI. It is turned midnight here and I need to go to bed, but I will look forward to you telling me tomorrow. I do admire your knowledge.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Zone,

that thing about Ham is interesting, would you please expand on that and also your questions pertaining to that. Thank you.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I'm rusty on that, it was over fifty years since I was doing BI. It is turned midnight here and I need to go to bed, but I will look forward to you telling me tomorrow. I do admire your knowledge.
wow so your buddy sends you email alerts today and you haven't been a card carrying member for 50 years?

i say nah....not buying it.

g'nite.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Zone,

that thing about Ham is interesting, would you please expand on that and also your questions pertaining to that. Thank you.
i'm getting to it over here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/56093-armstrongism-british-israelism.html < click

gist:
some cults teach the black man isn't human basically....some rabbis teach it today...in secret.

works real good when you need a slave or a scapegoat.

especially if your skin is white and you say you are a jew but are of the Synagogue of Satan.

look for the posts by Naylor....PS's mentor.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
I don't understand why free wiilly types think it important for them as Christians to maintain their own will.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Stop trying to be autonomous from God, and crucify that will... If you're will is crucified, then it's not free anymore now is it...
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I don't understand why free wiilly types think it important for them as Christians to maintain their own will.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Stop trying to be autonomous from God, and crucify that will... If you're will is crucified, then it's not free anymore now is it...
yay diggsy.

 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
I don't understand why free wiilly types think it important for them as Christians to maintain their own will.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Stop trying to be autonomous from God, and crucify that will... If you're will is crucified, then it's not free anymore now is it...
If self is center then me, myself and I are all that really matters - in the end. "God" may be allowed to hang in there, but only if self want it much enough. Poor God, He may only frustratingly foresee (and learn) things, not determine them. Happily the gospel is all about God's work and not our work. Such a rest and relief!
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
I don't understand why free wiilly types think it important for them as Christians to maintain their own will.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Stop trying to be autonomous from God, and crucify that will... If you're will is crucified, then it's not free anymore now is it...
We are in subjection to God but that is because we chose him as our master.

"Choose you this day who you will serve"

MEANING WE HAVE FREE WILL.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
If self is center then me, myself and I are all that really matters - in the end. "God" may be allowed to hang in there, but only if self want it much enough. Poor God, He may only frustratingly foresee (and learn) things, not determine them. Happily the gospel is all about God's work and not our work. Such a rest and relief!
It's Jesus first, others next and ourselves last. Just like Jesus.