The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’
- Thread starter Tommy4Christ
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C
It should be noted that there's a huge theological difference between the holiness perspective and the Pelagian position that is being presented in the original post. In fact, they are nothing alike at all.
Original Holiness doctrine placed complete reliance on God as the means in which one can become holy. Where as Pelagian doctrine insists that one can become holy through his or her own efforts. HUGE DIFFERENCE!
Original Holiness doctrine placed complete reliance on God as the means in which one can become holy. Where as Pelagian doctrine insists that one can become holy through his or her own efforts. HUGE DIFFERENCE!
Luke 12:32
“Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
John 3:7
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
“Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
John 3:7
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Christian perfection (also known as perfect love; heart purity; the baptism of the Holy Spirit; the fullness of the blessing; Christian holiness; the second blessing; the second work of grace; and entire sanctification) is a doctrine of the Holiness movement which holds that the heart of the regenerant (born-again) Christian may attain a state of holiness in which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and where there is a total love for God and others wrought by the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
Perfection is the process of sanctification which is both an instantaneous and a progressive work of grace. It may also be called entire sanctification, in which the heart of the believer is cleansed from inbred sin by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Christian perfection, according to Wesley, is “purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God” and “the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked.” It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves".[2] It is “a restoration not only to the favor, but likewise to the image of God,” our “being filled with the fullness of God.”[3]
Christian perfection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
Psalm 83:18
Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD--that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Perfection is the process of sanctification which is both an instantaneous and a progressive work of grace. It may also be called entire sanctification, in which the heart of the believer is cleansed from inbred sin by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Christian perfection, according to Wesley, is “purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God” and “the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked.” It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves".[2] It is “a restoration not only to the favor, but likewise to the image of God,” our “being filled with the fullness of God.”[3]
Christian perfection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
Psalm 83:18
Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD--that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.
Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
R
contrary to what you imply Zone..i do not hate the 'election crowd' I hate how they misrepresent God with 5 point calvinism and the problems it causes and the implications of it(antinomianism..albeit ou accused Wesley of this, which is kinda funny..seeing as Holiness theology was a counter to the antinomian tendencies of many calvinists in Wesley's time)----------------------
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i love you raul....but if you can't see the lack of real love in your posts (not a mushy love, buy the world a COKE love)....basic respect for someone, and yes, i'll say Tribesman....who you have not met and do not know, but have written off, i doubt YOUR sincerity.
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You can doubt if you want to..seeing as he made much accusations about those who reject determinism and calvinism..which were never said. I never said i was better...i simply hope he is serving God..I am sure he is trying. What wrong did I do to challenge him to step beyond his appeal to grace and make sure he is truly living in the person of Grace/Jesus?
I have not written him off yet..But you may want to ask Tribesman to have this same quality..and not be so biased towards your calvinist brethren.
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this is mere showmanship.
i'm disappointed raul.
if this is what Wesleyanism teaches i want nothing to do with it.
a bucnh of DOERS proving to everybody what DOERS they are.
Paul said he was blamelss under the Law - i bet he gave all tithes and counted out every leaf of mint....
he counted all that as DUNG.
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You are making wrong assumptions Zone..I never said anything to be showy.You came in here with your anti Wesley stance Zone..i do not believe anyone is going to get to change your mind of this..not yet at least. And as far as doing..its more about living than doing..if you live for God, You will be doing! The doing right will be the result and the fruit. So why are we going on and on about trying to prove that im a works oriented pharissee? It sounds like you are convinced that i am..you made up your mind Zone.------------
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no truly converted Christian EVER goes on and on about works. < they shrink from the very public mention!
and fruit IS the new man...he ought not to have to continually go on about that either.
SHOW ME your works and fruit by not talking about it! let me see you in real life doing things NOT seen...by anyone, ever.....maybe no one but YOU and GOD know that you gave one of His little ones a drink of water? unless you keep track of your works....in which case you already have your reward!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was not going on and on about works..but if you wish to see it that way..go ahead and make that accusation. But do we have fruit? Do i ignore this to prove that i am appealing to grace and only to grace..or do i encourage all who wave the banner of Christ to be reminded of their spirituality? If this makes me a false christian in your eyes..then you have not told me much different than what others here,locally and online elsewhere have..Im used to the accusation..really.
You will not be able to see more than mere words actually here..so that is where the deception is..you hate holiness theology, so you are prone to say i am here with a works oriented agenda. Nothing could be further from the truth. But your friend Tribesman has made anti arminian and anti synergism remarks too..so the vitriol is there. I have shown and said why i cannot be a calvinist/monergist/determinist. I never ever implied that you were a fake though..nor did I of Tribesman..I simply said i hope he is living for God beyond his intellect..that was not wrong to say. Its a good thing/admonishing thing to say.
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no truly converted Christian EVER goes on and on about works. < they shrink from the very public mention!
and fruit IS the new man...he ought not to have to continually go on about that either.
SHOW ME your works and fruit by not talking about it! let me see you in real life doing things NOT seen...by anyone, ever.....maybe no one but YOU and GOD know that you gave one of His little ones a drink of water? unless you keep track of your works....in which case you already have your reward!---------------------------------
James 2 says..you show me your faith without works,and i will show you faith that works! Why throw works out the window? Why? Because it is easy and attainable and you do not wanna scare the many tithing heathen out of the church? I am trying to get why you are so quick to forsake works, so it seems..you are not hearing me out. I appeal to works because for many years, i only saw churches(protestant ones are the worst at this) that talk about God's love..his favor..his grace..yet never showed you how to live in Victory..or what it means to be unspotted from the world..and only recently have i seen this..the baptists did not show me..the charismatics didnt..the pentecostals and non denoms did not..even the calvinists did not..So..if you are implying I am to shut up and not encourage anyone to live for God, I cannot do that. I am not here to show you how good i am. But i will not be bullied into being quiet because some would rather point to their theological stance as sufficient and salvic..when a belief system that is not practiced never could save anyone..you ever hear about the demons..well we know they believe, they are also in hell! with belief zone..they possibly possess more systematic theology than all the calvinists combined here..yet it cannot remove them from hell, why is that?
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i love you raul....but if you can't see the lack of real love in your posts (not a mushy love, buy the world a COKE love)....basic respect for someone, and yes, i'll say Tribesman....who you have not met and do not know, but have written off, i doubt YOUR sincerity.
----------------
You can doubt if you want to..seeing as he made much accusations about those who reject determinism and calvinism..which were never said. I never said i was better...i simply hope he is serving God..I am sure he is trying. What wrong did I do to challenge him to step beyond his appeal to grace and make sure he is truly living in the person of Grace/Jesus?
I have not written him off yet..But you may want to ask Tribesman to have this same quality..and not be so biased towards your calvinist brethren.
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--------------------------------------------------------
this is mere showmanship.
i'm disappointed raul.
if this is what Wesleyanism teaches i want nothing to do with it.
a bucnh of DOERS proving to everybody what DOERS they are.
Paul said he was blamelss under the Law - i bet he gave all tithes and counted out every leaf of mint....
he counted all that as DUNG.
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You are making wrong assumptions Zone..I never said anything to be showy.You came in here with your anti Wesley stance Zone..i do not believe anyone is going to get to change your mind of this..not yet at least. And as far as doing..its more about living than doing..if you live for God, You will be doing! The doing right will be the result and the fruit. So why are we going on and on about trying to prove that im a works oriented pharissee? It sounds like you are convinced that i am..you made up your mind Zone.------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no truly converted Christian EVER goes on and on about works. < they shrink from the very public mention!
and fruit IS the new man...he ought not to have to continually go on about that either.
SHOW ME your works and fruit by not talking about it! let me see you in real life doing things NOT seen...by anyone, ever.....maybe no one but YOU and GOD know that you gave one of His little ones a drink of water? unless you keep track of your works....in which case you already have your reward!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was not going on and on about works..but if you wish to see it that way..go ahead and make that accusation. But do we have fruit? Do i ignore this to prove that i am appealing to grace and only to grace..or do i encourage all who wave the banner of Christ to be reminded of their spirituality? If this makes me a false christian in your eyes..then you have not told me much different than what others here,locally and online elsewhere have..Im used to the accusation..really.
You will not be able to see more than mere words actually here..so that is where the deception is..you hate holiness theology, so you are prone to say i am here with a works oriented agenda. Nothing could be further from the truth. But your friend Tribesman has made anti arminian and anti synergism remarks too..so the vitriol is there. I have shown and said why i cannot be a calvinist/monergist/determinist. I never ever implied that you were a fake though..nor did I of Tribesman..I simply said i hope he is living for God beyond his intellect..that was not wrong to say. Its a good thing/admonishing thing to say.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no truly converted Christian EVER goes on and on about works. < they shrink from the very public mention!
and fruit IS the new man...he ought not to have to continually go on about that either.
SHOW ME your works and fruit by not talking about it! let me see you in real life doing things NOT seen...by anyone, ever.....maybe no one but YOU and GOD know that you gave one of His little ones a drink of water? unless you keep track of your works....in which case you already have your reward!---------------------------------
James 2 says..you show me your faith without works,and i will show you faith that works! Why throw works out the window? Why? Because it is easy and attainable and you do not wanna scare the many tithing heathen out of the church? I am trying to get why you are so quick to forsake works, so it seems..you are not hearing me out. I appeal to works because for many years, i only saw churches(protestant ones are the worst at this) that talk about God's love..his favor..his grace..yet never showed you how to live in Victory..or what it means to be unspotted from the world..and only recently have i seen this..the baptists did not show me..the charismatics didnt..the pentecostals and non denoms did not..even the calvinists did not..So..if you are implying I am to shut up and not encourage anyone to live for God, I cannot do that. I am not here to show you how good i am. But i will not be bullied into being quiet because some would rather point to their theological stance as sufficient and salvic..when a belief system that is not practiced never could save anyone..you ever hear about the demons..well we know they believe, they are also in hell! with belief zone..they possibly possess more systematic theology than all the calvinists combined here..yet it cannot remove them from hell, why is that?
raul, are you going to address wesley's sin?
his confession of never loving God?
of not believing all the things he taught others?
or are we skipping over that?
actually, i waited a very long time before discussing wesley with you.
i was trying to listen to you and see past your anti-calvin stance.
i notice you're just bypassing (excusing) wesley's sin and unbelief...why is that?
and yes, i'm anti-wesley BECAUSE he taught and said one thing; but never believed nor practiced it himself.
Holiness, perfect love and perfection. RUBBISH.
and no wonder - what he taught was false - a 'second work of grace; a second blessing; a second baptism...whereby one is made sinless....< this is found NOWHERE in scripture, nowhere at all.
if you think you are perfect (wesleyan-style), you're going to end up like wesley.
it's a no-brainer.
i'm not sure i've used the term works-oriented with you.
i don't use that term. i don't do the grace vs works thing. i'm a Lutheran.
i reject "holiness theology"...not a desire for holiness.
if you are not able or willing to address the glaring flaws in Holiness Theology, why should anyone listen you?
who throws out works?
i said - works prove nothing. a claim of faith proves nothing.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. can you go to hell if you have be born of God, sealed by the Spirit?
if you are born again, you WILL walk in the good works God ordained we would walk in ("walking in" simply means the daily Christian life..."walking in the Spirit")....do you serve your neighbor by not stealing from him? by using just weights and measures? by watching over his property for him? by praying for him? by serving him in your vocation? by setting an example of peace and humility in your neighborhood? by taking his trash cans to the garage for him? by driving his son to school on Tuesdays?
or do you make a big show of working at soup kitchens and painting the town square and prayer walks and the like? do you talk constantly about your works? < you already have your reward!
do you recall the sheep were surprised to hear they had given the Lord a drink of water when they gave it to His little ones? why were they surprised? because they weren't OBSESSING and KEEPING TRACK of their works.
they were doing what Agape Love has persuaded them to do.
neither will i.
that's why i posted on Wesley and his frauds.
but you don't want to talk about that.
was Wesley a sinner?
his confession of never loving God?
of not believing all the things he taught others?
or are we skipping over that?
actually, i waited a very long time before discussing wesley with you.
i was trying to listen to you and see past your anti-calvin stance.
i notice you're just bypassing (excusing) wesley's sin and unbelief...why is that?
and yes, i'm anti-wesley BECAUSE he taught and said one thing; but never believed nor practiced it himself.
Holiness, perfect love and perfection. RUBBISH.
and no wonder - what he taught was false - a 'second work of grace; a second blessing; a second baptism...whereby one is made sinless....< this is found NOWHERE in scripture, nowhere at all.
if you think you are perfect (wesleyan-style), you're going to end up like wesley.
it's a no-brainer.
i'm not sure i've used the term works-oriented with you.
i don't use that term. i don't do the grace vs works thing. i'm a Lutheran.
i reject "holiness theology"...not a desire for holiness.
if you are not able or willing to address the glaring flaws in Holiness Theology, why should anyone listen you?
who throws out works?
i said - works prove nothing. a claim of faith proves nothing.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. can you go to hell if you have be born of God, sealed by the Spirit?
if you are born again, you WILL walk in the good works God ordained we would walk in ("walking in" simply means the daily Christian life..."walking in the Spirit")....do you serve your neighbor by not stealing from him? by using just weights and measures? by watching over his property for him? by praying for him? by serving him in your vocation? by setting an example of peace and humility in your neighborhood? by taking his trash cans to the garage for him? by driving his son to school on Tuesdays?
or do you make a big show of working at soup kitchens and painting the town square and prayer walks and the like? do you talk constantly about your works? < you already have your reward!
do you recall the sheep were surprised to hear they had given the Lord a drink of water when they gave it to His little ones? why were they surprised? because they weren't OBSESSING and KEEPING TRACK of their works.
they were doing what Agape Love has persuaded them to do.
neither will i.
that's why i posted on Wesley and his frauds.
but you don't want to talk about that.
was Wesley a sinner?
