The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[rauleetoe]

I believe we are born in sin, no one is/was born sinless except Jesus thus we need to be born again,we need cleansing of our hearts by the Savior's blood and sanctification, whereby we are enabled to serve God.

Passages like these prove inbred sin:
Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. No parent has to teach their child how to lie before they start lying once they can speak. Also, just put two two-year-olds in a room with one very appealing toy and watch the outcome...10 minutes later"I got it first", "No I got it first, it's mine", "Mama, she hit me". Oh Lord...Hahaha.
This tendency to rebellion is evident in every child that is why proverbs 22:15 says the rod of discipline drives away foolishness in the heart of a child. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him (Prov 22:15).

The problem is when people use original sin as an excuse for continuous disobedience after salvation. This will not be a valid excuse on Judgment day. God has provided us with everything we need for godly living by His power and causes us to walk in His statues by His divine grace.
2 Peter 1:3- According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

more often than not..you will see this used as excusatory..and the formation of bad theology which results in bad erroneous behavior is the fruit of this..
as a man thinks in his heart...

 

[rauleetoe]

You don't know anything about what I've read and not read. Just for the record: you are wrong here.

Guess that's all for now.

I guess so..albeit there are many in the reformed tradition who seem to have 'head knowledge' but what i find more important than how many books you've read is that you know him(Jesus Christ) truly in your heart..and not just in your head(your intellect,as many who hold to the intellectual gospel,aka calvinism do)..
that's all for now, as well.

 

[cfultz3]

I don't gainsay the need of walking upright. The crucial question remains however what we center our faith around and what we set our only and lasting hope to: either it is Christ alone or it is more or less our own self and its "abilities". Either we hold to that we are justified by God and rest in it or we hold to that we are to gain some justification by our own to, hopefully at best, earn God's favor and acceptance to the end. There's no way around this one.

Do we not hunger to become more like Him? Do we not desire to follow in the same footsteps of our Lord? Is this then not a desire to live uprighteously? Is not the doers of the Law who are justified before Him and did not Jesus walk in love? O but say that there is a need to walk uprightly as our Lord did.

 

[PS]

I assume people know there were two sets of laws. One was God given on Mount Sinai and the other man-made law that we read about is what the Pharisees followed. This is what caused all the friction between Jesus and the Pharisees, for example when Jesus healed the man with the withered hand the Pharisees said it was against the law, but nowhere in the Ten Commandments is such an act of compassion banned.

Levitical laws Mitzvah laws.tmd -- 26k

.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe we are born in sin, no one is/was born sinless except Jesus thus we need to be born again,we need cleansing of our hearts by the Savior's blood and sanctification, whereby we are enabled to serve God.

Passages like these prove inbred sin:
Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. No parent has to teach their child how to lie before they start lying once they can speak. Also, just put two two-year-olds in a room with one very appealing toy and watch the outcome...10 minutes later"I got it first", "No I got it first, it's mine", "Mama, she hit me". Oh Lord...Hahaha.
This tendency to rebellion is evident in every child that is why proverbs 22:15 says the rod of discipline drives away foolishness in the heart of a child. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him (Prov 22:15).

The problem is when people use original sin as an excuse for continuous disobedience after salvation. This will not be a valid excuse on Judgment day. God has provided us with everything we need for godly living by His power and causes us to walk in His statues by His divine grace.
2 Peter 1:3- According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

this is so true.

As for using it as an excuse. Again, I have never heard ANYONE use this as an excuse to sin. And to be honest. I can think of many ways which would better suit excuses for sin than this. I think this thought of excusing sin just because of this is a smokescreen to hide the real issue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do we not hunger to become more like Him? Do we not desire to follow in the same footsteps of our Lord? Is this then not a desire to live uprighteously? Is not the doers of the Law who are justified before Him and did not Jesus walk in love? O but say that there is a need to walk uprightly as our Lord did.

if we believe in our hearts we are justified freely by the grace of God. we will do this.. So I am not sure of your point.

It is those who are wishy washy in their faith (if they have faith at all) which go up and down in this issue, or ignore it altogether. not those who have truly repented.

yes the doers of the law are justified. Yet the pharisees were doers of the law. (even Jesus admitted this) How well did this help them?

A focus on law leads to sin, Israel proved this) a focus on the spirit leads to righteous living.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

more often than not..you will see this used as excusatory..and the formation of bad theology which results in bad erroneous behavior is the fruit of this..
as a man thinks in his heart...

where do you get this crap? Can you name people who use this as an excuse to sin? Are you going to continue to ignore me, or put words behind your beliefs? Show me someone who uses original sin to excuse sin.

 

[cfultz3]

if we believe in our hearts we are justified freely by the grace of God. we will do this.. So I am not sure of your point.

It is those who are wishy washy in their faith (if they have faith at all) which go up and down in this issue, or ignore it altogether. not those who have truly repented.

yes the doers of the law are justified. Yet the pharisees were doers of the law. (even Jesus admitted this) How well did this help them?

A focus on law leads to sin, Israel proved this) a focus on the spirit leads to righteous living.

My focus was on Jesus. Love is the fulfillment of the Law. So, yes, the doers of the Law (lovers of righteousness) are justified before God, even as Jesus was justified by His obedience in fulfilling the Law (Love). Indeed, with the Law there is acknowledgment of sin. With the Spirit there is acknowledgement of Life.

Perhaps it was my misunderstanding of the follow: 'I don't gainsay the need of walking upright.' (had to go to dictionary dot com for 'gainsay'.) My apologies for that. So, to that point, there is no point

 

[zone]

The power of God is God's mighty hand to save condemned and utterly powerless sinners through Christ and the Cross alone (which is the gospel in a nutshell). Salvation is completely of the Lord - it is the work of God alone by grace alone! To deny God's power is thus to try to mix in human achievement and contribution in different ways for (final) salvation, justification and "acceptance" before God. This is to deny to God's power. To deny God's power is also to deny God's righteousness (justification) that is ONLY found in Christ. God's righteousness is a perfect righteousness - which is inherited by all those saved in Christ - completely outside man himself (Rom.1:16, 10:3, 2Cor.5:21).

AMEN!
now we are really getting down to it.

anyone care to challenge ANY of this?

 

[PS]

AMEN!
now we are really getting down to it.

anyone care to challenge ANY of this?

The Victory!

1Co 15:57 but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.

Keep trusting.

 

[zone]

If you ever even read what i have posted before you would see that i never said that any merit is to take place of God's grace. Yes salvation is all grace, but how do you respond in that? If you truly read what i said previously..and knew anything about classical arminian theology(you obviously do not) then you would see that no one here is denying God's work..but we are not mere robotic automations..after that conversion..you do have a choice..after hearing the message..you do have a choice..even zone, a monergistic Lutheran agrees with me..why can't you do the same?
Grace does not excuse sin..it never can. You are either serving God, or you are playing games on sunday and may be deceiving many on here and many in real life..but at the end of the day, your tree will either be fruitfull or it will be barren. You are either resisting God by not being Holy and right in his eyes and by his spirit(read this..should i tell you in spanish so we can understand each other?) Nobody is appealing to works, but you HAD BETTER have some works..and YOU HAD BETTER have fruit..
otherwise, you lie when you say you are of the faith..
you can fool me..you cannot fool God.

good grief.

"you HAD BETTER have some works..and YOU HAD BETTER have fruit.." < OR ELSE!

where is Christ Crucified? WHERE ARE HIS WORKS?

HOW MANY WORKS? are you meriting God's favor?????

can i see your list? do you keep track? of your own works?
other's works?

do you do works to be SEEN/proven of men to be saved?

no truly converted Christian EVER goes on and on about works. < they shrink from the very public mention!

and fruit IS the new man...he ought not to have to continually go on about that either.

SHOW ME your works and fruit by not talking about it! let me see you in real life doing things NOT seen...by anyone, ever.....maybe no one but YOU and GOD know that you gave one of His little ones a drink of water? unless you keep track of your works....in which case you already have your reward!

this is mere showmanship.
i'm disappointed raul.

if this is what Wesleyanism teaches i want nothing to do with it.
a bucnh of DOERS proving to everybody what DOERS they are.

Paul said he was blamelss under the Law - i bet he gave all tithes and counted out every leaf of mint....

he counted all that as DUNG.

i love you raul....but if you can't see the lack of real love in your posts (not a mushy love, buy the world a COKE love)....basic respect for someone, and yes, i'll say Tribesman....who you have not met and do not know, but have written off, i doubt YOUR sincerity.

i really do. i know you are sincere toward and among your own Holiness Theology crowd...

please tell me how that is substantially different form the ELECTION crowd you can't stand?

 

[Tommy4Christ]

I read through some of the posts, and can see the word of God is causing some of you to squirm in your skin, you seem to think if mankind can do anything towards thier salvation, as scripture clearly teaches then they are hell bound heritics, well I am not shaken by your candor, nor will I quit preachuing and posting the truth, since most of you love to preach and defend sin and false teachings and teachers! I pray a few would wake up and join us few defending and contending earnestly for the gospel according to godliness!

I will post this again for you who have missed it:

Except your righteousness!​

Mat 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceedthe righteousnessof the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This verse is a very haunting verse so misused and twisted in the church system today! Many are under the false teaching that puts Jesus in their place, which means a magical cloak where they are now covered by Him, free from the wrath to come, and that Jesus righteousness is what they rely on, since they were taught they were born a sinner, unable to do anything right before God, especially repent and STOP SINNING!
But is this true? Did Jesus really mean His righteousness is now imputed onto you? His righteousness in now your righteousness since He somehow transferred His perfect track record to you by making you invisible to God as you still remain defiled and in bondage to this false teaching?
Can a person transfer their virtue onto another person? Or are we actually responsible to God to do right, as commanded.
This verse is referring to the Pharisees and scribes who were squeaky clean on the outside, but on the inside full of dead men’s bones, vile to the core, hating Jesus and His truth, by rejecting it, and calling Him a demon.
These hypocrites had an outward righteousness, but inwardly were vile, double minded, full of self and loved the lie, as most who profess Christ do.
I was called self-righteous by an ex friend of mine as he told me, Since I preached we can obey God from the heart, that can only come from the repentance process where the heart is made pure from within, and crucified (put to death) once and for all with Christ. Thus the sin stops, the heart is purified by faith, and obedience to the truth is not an option!
I was told walking in newness of life was legalism, and being self-righteous, and obeying Jesus and His commands from the heart, walking in the light, keeping my heart pure and undefiled from the world and all its vain attractions was being just like the scribes and Pharisees.
While he was still in bondage to lust, worldliness, and his popular church which preached you can fall into many vile sins as a Christian, but as long as you confessed these so called failures to God, you were OK!
Now I ask you who still have an ear to hear, who is the still defiled one?
He who has crucified their flesh once and for all in repentance, cleansed from the inside out, walking in newness of life, or my ex friend who was and is still in bondage to his flesh and the false system of lies, where you can fall occasionally or daily into immorality, drunkenness, fornication, adultery, etc., and just confess then you are again right with GOD!
Pro 1:31 And they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own desires.
Tommy 12-8-12
PS, Matthew 5-20 is clearly talking about heart purity, not outward good deeds most church people do, but have never crucified their flesh with Christ, Galatians 2-20, and are clean on the outside, yet still defiled and dirty on the inside, its simple, repent, stops sinning as commanded, or make excuses why you can remain unrighteous since Jesus gave you His in some mysterious transfer!

 

[zone]

I read through some of the posts, and can see the word of God is causing some of you to squirm in your skin

someone take away Mike DeSarios whiteboard plz.

 

[SPUZIT]

I need Jesus as my saviour not my prophet. You started out great, yet pray about learning when to stop & listen or rather allow God to have control not you. As soon as you said " inbred sin?" ...you fell. As for your original. Quoats from Tehillim, " Psalms, " 51 ,( to David from Nathan a prophet. " after" going into Bathsheba )& also Tehillim, " Psalms" 58 ( about wicked judges will be be judged " ) people please read the whole chapters of these. Tow chapters in these books of Psalms, they both have great purposefull verse's.
I came from old ways & also old laws, I was a practicing God person, now as Christian I am an Actively partisapatement of my God & king Jesus Emmanuel. Please know that although we are born in sin is likened to being born with a naked guard upon our hearts, as we grow older we add armor on this guard . Over & over again. These are our sins this armor. & untilled we give to God thru the blood of christ, this hard our sinfully material will continue to guard our hearts against God. So give overe to God, pour the blood of Jesus on your points of views, don't take Scripture out of text, it can be a very harmfull thing to do to yourself & others who may read it, & be vonerable.hope all my works were correct. Spelling in English & in the lord with love & understanding.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

More food for thought;

The Predictable outcome of the sin nature absurdity:

The sin nature teaching promotes the falsehood that if someone can stop sinning they could save themselves and wouldn’t need Jesus. Logically this would also have to translate into anyone claiming to overcome an addiction being branded a liar. (Since according to the inbred sin theory no one can) But we all know that the reverse is true, people can and DO Stop their addiction to sinful behavior daily by making a determined effort to change.
Changing inner desires is in YOUR hands, that’s why the Scripture constantly beseech you to ‘amend’ your ways, ‘cease’ to do evil, ‘Strive’ to make a Vehement effort to get Clear of your wrong doings! The Word Strive is ‘agonizomia’, which transliterates into our English word for AGONY. It means literally to: ‘Contend, Struggle and endeavor with strenuous zeal to obtain something’ … WHY would God ask us to do something He knows we are incapable of doing? ‘You should rule over it!’ He said. Was He taunting us???
Is it enough for you to believe the common cop out …. That God is commanding us to do the impossible to show us we can’t, so just Trust Him instead? WHERE in the Bible is such non-sense implied? FIND IT IF YOU CAN!!! If not Stop lying to yourself that’s its impossible to reform your ways. Repentance Proven by deeds is NOT ‘saving yourself’, it’s what the Lord has decreed in order to return mankind to favor with God!
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk24:47
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, Matt3:8
The ‘Fruits’ (Deeds) Worthy of Repentance is getting CLEAR of your wrong doing NOT blubbering to your friends that ‘no one’ can stop sinning … or pretending you’re saving yourself if you do stop. Do you even realize how foolish it is to blame your addiction to sin on Adam, and then turn to the ear ticklers who ‘torture’ the Scriptures (2Pet3:16) ‘Stretching’ them (as on a rack!) beyond the limits of reason!?
Isaiah said: Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa5:20. BUT honestly isn’t that precisely what the ‘believers’ are doing by castigating the Pure of heart (who have ‘ceased’ from sin 1Pet4:1-2) by calling them Self-Righteous and Puffed up and ‘holier than thou’, because they call you to Repentance proven by deeds? Wrongdoing doesn’t have a leg to stand on in the Bible! ‘GOD IS ANGRY WITH THE SINNER EVERYDAY!’ Ps7:11. These absurdities make Christ a Minister of Sin and force you to argue in FAVOR of it! What further Proof do you need than your own failed existence? You wallow in the gutters of shame and cry out for deliverance but when it comes in the Out Stretched hand of God you DISPISE it because you’re not ‘Willing’ to Obey!

Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity ;I will mock when your terror comes, When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. Proverbs1:24-27
The Absurdities of common belief NOT found in the Bible:
Substitution, as in the Provisional Gospel Package
Moral Transfer (imputation) of Christ’s Righteousness to the sinner
Past, Present and Future sins forgiven
Eternal Security
Sinning daily in thought, word and deed
No one is perfect
Born in sin, saved in sin, can never stop sinning
Repeat after me Salvation, faith alone myth
All sin is the same
Carnal Christians
Sit down with your Bible, search the pages of Scripture and see if you can draw a Valid hypothesis using any of the terms above. Be honest for a change. Haven’t you had your fill of sin? What has it brought you but shame on top of more shame….wrecked marriages, unwed mothers, abandon children, sexual perversions, drunkenness, arrest, imprisonments, vile addictions and insanity? You’re living a LIE and it will only end in destruction! WHY Continue to drag God into the Pig Pen with you and claim His Mercy when your own conscience condemns the utter humiliation you have made out of your life.
Face up and Fess up. The Narrow Road to recovery begins when come clean with God, Stop playing the fool and FORSAKE the Evil of your Doings.
www.standingthegap.org

 

[Grandpa]

Isaiah 53:3-5
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 John 2:1-2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 8:37-39
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 13:20-21
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Read your bible. Then come to the Lord Jesus and ask Him for mercy and Salvation...

 

[cfultz3]

Psa 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

 

[SarahM777]

No one is perfect

I think the Bible is very clear on this

2 Chronicles 6

When they sin against you&#8212;for there is no one who does not sin&#8212;and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near; 37 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity and say, &#8216;We have sinned, we have done wrong and acted wickedly&#8217;;

Psalm 14

The Lord looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Psalm 54

2 God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.​

Romans 3

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

&#8220;There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.&#8221;[a]
13 &#8220;Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.&#8221;
&#8220;The poison of vipers is on their lips.&#8221;[c]

Isaiah 53

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth

Ecclesiastes 7

20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
no one who does what is right and never sins.​

The Bible is very clear not one of us perfect,all of us have fallen short and not one of us is good.

 

[danschance]

Tommy, sorry, but you have misunderstood what the doctrine of original sin is.

We are not born as sinners. We are born with a sin nature inside us all, thanks to Adam. This sin nature inside us all is why we freely and often chose to less than we should. Look around the world. Read today's headlines and ask yourself if man is a sinless creature or not. We see examples of men and women doing sinful, vile, evil things all the time. This is because we all have a sin nature. This means babies grow up and chose to sin.

 

[cfultz3]

What to do with the sin nature: die to the flesh so that you can live to the spirit through the Spirit.