The BASIC Difference between Arminians and Calvinists

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Mar 14, 2011
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How did we get fro the differences between arminian and calvin and how they are alike to lordship salvation? Should we not maybe make another thread?
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
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Supplementary to my posting # 3, I would like to point out the following.
  • Having your sin and sins atoned for is by FAITH (Jn.8:24)
  • Sonship to God by rebirth is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13)
  • Salvation is by FAITH (Eph.2:8)
  • Eternal Life is by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16)
That is, when a man BELIEVES and CONFESSES that belief, something happens to him based on Christ's work. The Father has approved of Christ's Work and its EFFECTIVENESS. Who, or what can undo what Christ has done and which has been approved by the Father. Can a mere man overturn this?

But then we have the following emphatic statements
  • A rich man can hardly enter the Kingdom of God, and the disciples understood this to be "not saved" (Matt.19:25)
  • A Christian who gets drunk cannot enter the Kingdom of God (Gal.5:21)
  • A Christian who "jests" cannot enter the Kingdom of God (Eph.5:4-5)
Now, in what way can wealth in itself, enjoying your son's wedding with a half a bottle of whiskey* and having a sense of humor (as many on this Forum have), cause the Work of Christ to be overturned, especially as (i) it is designated by God as "eternal" (Heb.5:9), and (ii) Romans 8:32-39 gives a list of powerful things that cannot (i) accuse us before God, or (ii) remove us from God's grasp?

I think we had better sort this out because the first four points base salvation on FAITH and the second three show a Christian losing it for relatively mundane WORKS. Or are we talking about two different things?


* I will have you note that in the Law of Moses, which is "good", "holy", "spiritual" and from God (Rom.7:12-14) urges the Israelite to enjoy God's Feasts with "strong drink" (Deut.14:26).
I want to know, how do you reconcile these? I see exactly this that you have said, Eternal life is by faith, salvation by faith, etc. But then I also see as you said drunkards do not inherit the Kingdom it even says be not deceived.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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ok calvinist’s, time to shine, do you agree with this?

considering I have never heard on person ever make this claim and this claim goes totally against your own belief that it is god who saves not our free will choices. Yet here if this is true, it is our free will choces that determin if we are saved or not, not regeneration? Is MacArthur a true calvinist? I have never studied his writings?
Not ' free will ' choices , but based on ' Election ' this is key for calvinsm . An Elect person who has been ' granted the Gift or faith and repentance ' will persevere in good works and holliness . ( of course allowing for some slip ups along the way , for Gods glory ) So as election is their basis for everything else , here's where ' Lordship salvation ' comes in to ensure the elect have assurance . Not based on scriptural reasoning , after all how could an elect person know he is truly elect unless he is persevering and round and round we go . Just like Arminism the trap is that you have to look to yourself. The works being the evidence or the fruit to stay save in the case of some armins .
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Not ' free will ' choices , but based on ' Election ' this is key for calvinsm . An Elect person who has been ' granted the Gift or faith and repentance ' will persevere in good works and holliness . ( of course allowing for some slip ups along the way , for Gods glory ) So as election is their basis for everything else , here's where ' Lordship salvation ' comes in to ensure the elect have assurance . Not based on scriptural reasoning , after all how could an elect person know he is truly elect unless he is persevering and round and round we go . Just like Arminism the trap is that you have to look to yourself. The works being the evidence or the fruit to stay save in the case of some armins .
I still do not want to put words in their mouth. We do to much if this here. I want to hear it from them. Not saying your wrong just saying I have never heard such a thing and I have had discussions with many who
Claim to follow Calvinist views
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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I still do not want to put words in their mouth. We do to much if this here. I want to hear it from them. Not saying your wrong just saying I have never heard such a thing and I have had discussions with many who
Claim to follow Calvinist views
No problem . Me too I like to hear from the horse 🐎
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
No problem . Me too I like to hear from the horse 🐎
MacArthur has enough Calvinism in his teachings to make him someone to stay away from.
The Calvinist I know on here have adamantly defended his work to me many times and are highly offended if you say anything against MacArthur.

I consider him worse than outright Calvinists, in some ways, because of his it is more hidden.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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MacArthur has enough Calvinism in his teachings to make him someone to stay away from.
The Calvinist I know on here have adamantly defended his work to me many times and are highly offended if you say anything against MacArthur.

I consider him worse than outright Calvinists, in some ways, because of his it is more hidden.
Totally agree . A lot of Arminains don't even realise he is a Calvinist . Its because they preach like an arminain .
How did we get fro the differences between arminian and calvin and how they are alike to lordship salvation? Should we not maybe make another thread?
The main difference is on Grace being resistable or not .
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I don't answer questions with obvious answers.

You don't seem sincere in your questions.

I don't see any value in them.

Always ask yourself before asking a question if it pleases God to ask it. If it does not, then it comes from Satan and must be avoided. Satan is the father of lies. Do not listen to him. He is not to be trusted. He is to be ignored. He is not to be assigned importance. He is to be minimized to nothing. He is to be vanquished. He is to be skipped over as a bad example. He is to be kicked out of all our thoughts and feelings. He is to be disposed of. He is to be given no regard whatsoever.
I know my own motive for asking, you don't. Don't answer if you don't want to, excuses for not answering are not needed.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Yes . Also a quote from John MacArther
Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).
Cart before horse syndrome.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I am on my third helping, I keep laying it out for others to join, but no one is eating it. I can’t let it go to waist ;)

I am actually suprised no calvinist are In here sitting the pot, although I have a few on ignore. Maybe they are?
No, can't say I've seen any Chauvinists yet.
John Piper a Calvinist? With his Lectio Divination? They can present better strawmen than that lol.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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I want to know, how do you reconcile these? I see exactly this that you have said, Eternal life is by faith, salvation by faith, etc. But then I also see as you said drunkards do not inherit the Kingdom it even says be not deceived.
May I refer you my posting # 3. If you have any objection there, then let's deal with it. I don't mind writing a page or two but it would not help to write about something you have found to be incorrect. The short of it is;
  • Christianity was "leavened" (as Matthew 13 predicted) by a Woman. This Woman appears again in Revelation 17 - Rome
  • Christianity took over doctrines that the Bible does not even allude to
  • Christianity at large believe that when a Christian dies, he/she goes to heaven
  • The Bible says that God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28; Ps.8:4-8; Rom.4:13; Heb.2:5-7)
  • The Bible never rescinds this goal. It ends with a City for Ruling, coming down to a renewed earth (Rev.21:2, 22:5)
  • Throughout the Bible the battle is about who will get the earth
If this correct, and this is what you have to decide, then being saved from the consequences of sin and sins, being born again, becoming a son of God, being justified, sanctified and glorified, HAVE AS THEIR GOAL, entering the Kingdom that Christ sets up on earth as a co-king of Christ. Being saved from your sins, being born again, being justified and sanctified, and becoming a son of God are all achieved by Christ's work and therefore cannot be overturned. Calvin saw this. But God, in His wisdom, sets before the newly born Christian certain works (Eph.2:10). These works are diverse and varied, but they have the goal in mind to train the son of God to (i) be utterly obedient, and (ii) utterly righteous so that if he is elected to be a co-king of Christ in His Kingdom ON EARTH, he will do a good job. The kingdoms of the Gentiles are marked by corruption, deceit, lies, conspiracies, thievery and murder. God cannot have such men carrying a Kingdom with His name on it.

So God sets forth a road, a journey, for the newly born again Christian, and if he qualifies by utterly rejecting his things and putting God's things first, he will be REWARDED by (i) being a co-king with Christ in His Kingdom when He comes to EARTH, and (ii) by being allowed to enter the Wedding Feast of Christ. Both Calvin and Arminius missed this because they thought that believers go to heaven at death. The other side of the coin is that Christians who are slothful, unfaithful, fleshly, habitual sinners, immature and defeated, will be found NOT WORTHY of this Kingdom. BUT THEIR REBIRTH, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION AND SONSHIP TO GOD ARE NOT REMOVED. They simply are banned from the presence of Christ in disgrace (outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth), and their TRAINING continues into the next age. In some cases they are actively chastised by the Lord (Matt.24:48-51; Lk.12:47-48). This is what the LOSS is. The slothful servant of the Lord is NOT ALLOWED the fame and pleasure of the KINGDOM. But just like any Father, God does not destroy them. He CHASTISES them and continues their Training. By Revelation 21:3-4 we see them RESTORED.

Israel broke their Covenant with God and murdered their Messiah. God chastises them for 2,000 years and then restores them (Hos.6:2; Act.15:14-16). Christians who accepted the rigors of their training in their lifetime, who denied themselves and took up their crosses daily, who learned obedience above all and who were faithful in small things, will be sons of God WHO INHERIT THE EARTH. Christians who refused the rigors of a tough training, who pandered to themselves and who did evil, will be sons of God WHO FORFEIT THE KINGDOM ON EARTH. That - is what both Calvin and Arminius missed. They focused on heaven instead of the Kingdom ON EARTH.

See ...
Genesis 1.26-28, 17:8, 48:4, Romans 4:12-13, Psalm 8:4-8, 37:11, Daniel.2:35, 44, Matthew 6:10, 25:1-30, etc., etc. See the Parables about the Kingdom. In every case a man is allowed into the Kingdom because of WORKS. But the Kingdom, in every case, is ON EARTH. It is NOT, "The Kingdom IN Heaven". It is, "The Kingdom (out) OF Heaven."

Once you know what to look for it is so clear that the INHERITANCE of the Christian IS THE EARTH.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15)

If Calvin and/or Arminius had seen this, we would not be discussing them today.
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
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Totally agree . A lot of Arminains don't even realise he is a Calvinist . Its because they preach like an arminain .
The main difference is on Grace being resistable or not .
I think one major issue is everyone wants to make it a Calvin vs Arminian argument when most people are neither. And it defeats any true discussion because if you believe in eternal security/OSAS your automatically seen as a Calvinist. If you believe in NOSAS your deemed an Arminian
 
L

lenna

Guest
MacArthur has enough Calvinism in his teachings to make him someone to stay away from.
The Calvinist I know on here have adamantly defended his work to me many times and are highly offended if you say anything against MacArthur.

I consider him worse than outright Calvinists, in some ways, because of his it is more hidden.
MacArthur is very wrong on a number of things and so critical of those who do not agree with him, that he basically tells them they are going to hell, and not just those who are non-cessationists.

He says some very good things but his interpretation of certain doctrines is totally skewed and he seems to be getting worse

He has stated that if you are saved without 'Lordship salvation' then you are not saved. Period.

santification is ongoing and knowledge is ongoing. NO ONE is instantly totally regenerated and comes to full knowledge of Jesus

there are ridiculous claims being made in this thread
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
18,010
113
MacArthur is very wrong on a number of things and so critical of those who do not agree with him, that he basically tells them they are going to hell, and not just those who are non-cessationists.

He says some very good things but his interpretation of certain doctrines is totally skewed and he seems to be getting worse

He has stated that if you are saved without 'Lordship salvation' then you are not saved. Period.

santification is ongoing and knowledge is ongoing. NO ONE is instantly totally regenerated and comes to full knowledge of Jesus

there are ridiculous claims being made in this thread
Sounds like a certain Calvinist here