THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb

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iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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You have got something there. It says traditionally the Revelation, John wrote it around 96 AD. AMEN, AMEN!

That date disproves azamzimtoti's THEORY, so it is was busted. "The wrath came in the war of 66-70 AD."

ThanK You, for reminding me of that.

AZ thinks it was written after Pentecost but before ad70(I think). It if you consider the contents of Revelation would be after the lords DBR(Rev. chapter 5)...And after the 7 Churches were in existence(letters to the 7 Churches in Asia)...And after the head that received the deadly wound received it(Rev. 17:8/was in the pit at the time written),,,And before the 7th head,the 10 horns and before the beast that was,was not yet is(8th) ascended out of the pit.
 

Absolutely

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iamsoandso

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That is also my position.
All die who refuse the mark.

The thing about Revelation 13:15 is that those who "do worship the image" are then spiritually dead because they worship the image. Those who "do not worship the image" are not "spiritually dead" because they don't. And so if the beast cant kill them spiritually the only other way to kill them is carnally.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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AZ thinks it was written after Pentecost but before ad70(I think). It if you consider the contents of Revelation would be after the lords DBR(Rev. chapter 5)...And after the 7 Churches were in existence(letters to the 7 Churches in Asia)...And after the head that received the deadly wound received it(Rev. 17:8/was in the pit at the time written),,,And before the 7th head,the 10 horns and before the beast that was,was not yet is(8th) ascended out of the pit.

Here are some statements from a couple of famous people who where alive less than an 100 years after John wrote the Revelation.

Now would you not think they would be MORE LIKELY TO HAVE THE DATE CORRECT, rather than some Johnny come Lately, with at WILD THEORY, desperate to JUSTIFY that theory, about the ROMAN Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD ? ? ?


When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson


Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

. . .
. . .
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
 

VCO

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No it doesn't, there is no way to positively state John's revelation was written "around 96 AD".

Gary North does a great job of establishing that the book was written pre 70 AD in his "Before Jerusalem Fell". Here is a link to the book in free PDF form:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1989_gentry_before-jerusalem-fell.pdf

You need to explain how John can be told to measure the temple when it was no longer standing:

(Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.)

(Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.)

We know from history that the siege of the city in the 1st century was around 42 months.

John the Baptist/Elijah warned his hearers about the wrath to come on that generation, which places it within the lifetime of his hearers.

(Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?)

He also states the ax was ready to strike the nation with His wrath:

(Mat 3:10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.)

The harvest was already underway as the "fan was already in his hand":

(Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.)

The following places the harvest in the 1st century:

(Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few)

(Mat 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest)

(John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.)

NO, and I do not want to hear anymore of your WILD THEORIES.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Here are some statements from a couple of famous people who where alive less than an 100 years after John wrote the Revelation.

Now would you not think they would be MORE LIKELY TO HAVE THE DATE CORRECT, rather than some Johnny come Lately, with at WILD THEORY, desperate to JUSTIFY that theory, about the ROMAN Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD ? ? ?


When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson


Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Cleament of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

. . .
. . .
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-lightfoot.html In chapter 11:3 polycap


There are others also. In chapter 11:3 Polycarp(bishop of Smyrna born ad69) mentions the Churches "which alone at that time knew God,for we knew him not as yet"...So why is that important? Smyrna is one of the seven Churches in Asia that Revelation is written to? Seems like the Bishop the Apostle John set over it would know when Smyrna "knew God".
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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Bare in mind though VCO what I said in post #919 about my position in eschatology because it would not really make much difference if it was written in ad96 or before ad70 to my position and so the question is not addressed by him to me.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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lol, here though AZ i'll play fair https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/322-examining-premillennialism ,,,,it seems like M. Jackson wrote something bad about us all(even me,lol) I'll see if I can find something he saw critical of the Churches of Christ but I bet not thats the MO most of us seem to follow(pray for the day we all just talk about it)...
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Interesting that you would quote a source that is amillenial and against dispensationalism.

Here click on the link, you might learn something:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/322-examining-premillennialism

I guess you just don't understand. I have NO INTERERST in anything you post. I am Not a young person that is influenced by every wind of Doctrinal. I do not CARE what Wayne Jackson theology is. I was only quoting what Irenaeus (A.D. 180) said about when John actually wrote Revelation. I am 70 years old and all of my theology is a SETTLED ISSUE. So go some were else with your Wild Theories. AND DO YOURSELF as Favor. REREAD Zechariah Chapter 14 AGAIN, and COUNT HOW MANY PROPHECIES IN THAT CHAPTER HAVE NEVER HAPPENED IN HISTORY. BUT CHRIST WILL ONE DAY SOON, FULFILL EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO THE LETTER.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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Your talking about everything but the Scripture I gave https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13:15&version=KJV when you look at it,it will dawn on you that it is saying the beast kills them literally and not spiritually.
Hi thanks for the reply.

At least today. I see less outward drama with those who tend to literalize away the hidden understanding.

All deaths have to do with the unseen spirit of the matter . The Incorruptible clean Spirit not seen, as the law of faith heals and creates anew. Placing His seal on their forehead (mind and will)

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:

Unclean or unredeemed spirits (666) literally can kill.

It had to do with the scripture you I gave but literalized it. It would seem to create outward signs used as wonders gospel. No sign as a wonder (faith element) are given. Giving, what I call the Hollywood drama version. And not the be still and know it is God used to draw Elijah from the cave when the drama died down he enter the sabbath rest .

The Holy Spirit that dwells in the believer. There are no signs as wonders missing. We walk by faith the unseen spiritual, not after the literal the things seen as metaphors in parables. . which without Christ spoke not.. the thief in the night "no outward signs" as a wonderment.

On the last day he will roll up the corrupted creation and the new will appear. Death as the letter of the law (the killer) will be tossed into the final judgment of God called a lake of fire a metaphor that represents the judgment of God not seen .The same wrath (death) being revealed from heaven daily

There will not be 7 headed monsters running around with teeth of a lion, tails of scorpions , faces of a man, and hair of a woman as mass murderers. The father of lies has been the beast using humans (666) to carry out his spiritual lies. . . performing mass murders from day one. His goal kill all of mankind with spiritual lies.

The parable is clear when the spiritual understanding is sought after .It is no different than the two witnesses that are killed in Revelation the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

Simply, the father of lies he was a murderer from the beginning using bodies of death whose number is 666 used to carry out his spiritual lies. Natural unconverted man.

Every person that dies, dies because they spiritual violate the letter of the law. The father simply uses it as his tool of choice. . It can be defended by the Sword of the Spirit when we do put on the Armor of God .the shield faith preventing the murderous poisonous arrows from affecting our relationship with our defender our father in heaven.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Bare in mind though VCO what I said in post #919 about my position in eschatology because it would not really make much difference if it was written in ad96 or before ad70 to my position and so the question is not addressed by him to me.
Foxes book of martyrs has an account of John and a new convert(disciple of John) after he left parmos.
In the account i believe it places John in his nineties
(Trying to remember 30 years ago. Lol)
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Hi thanks for the reply.

At least today. I see less outward drama with those who tend to literalize away the hidden understanding.

All deaths have to do with the unseen spirit of the matter . The Incorruptible clean Spirit not seen, as the law of faith heals and creates anew. Placing His seal on their forehead (mind and will)

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:

Unclean or unredeemed spirits (666) literally can kill.

It had to do with the scripture you I gave but literalized it. It would seem to create outward signs used as wonders gospel. No sign as a wonder (faith element) are given. Giving, what I call the Hollywood drama version. And not the be still and know it is God used to draw Elijah from the cave when the drama died down he enter the sabbath rest .

The Holy Spirit that dwells in the believer. There are no signs as wonders missing. We walk by faith the unseen spiritual, not after the literal the things seen as metaphors in parables. . which without Christ spoke not.. the thief in the night "no outward signs" as a wonderment.

On the last day he will roll up the corrupted creation and the new will appear. Death as the letter of the law (the killer) will be tossed into the final judgment of God called a lake of fire a metaphor that represents the judgment of God not seen .The same wrath (death) being revealed from heaven daily

There will not be 7 headed monsters running around with teeth of a lion, tails of scorpions , faces of a man, and hair of a woman as mass murderers. The father of lies has been the beast using humans (666) to carry out his spiritual lies. . . performing mass murders from day one. His goal kill all of mankind with spiritual lies.

The parable is clear when the spiritual understanding is sought after .It is no different than the two witnesses that are killed in Revelation the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

Simply, the father of lies he was a murderer from the beginning using bodies of death whose number is 666 used to carry out his spiritual lies. Natural unconverted man.

Every person that dies, dies because they spiritual violate the letter of the law. The father simply uses it as his tool of choice. . It can be defended by the Sword of the Spirit when we do put on the Armor of God .the shield faith preventing the murderous poisonous arrows from affecting our relationship with our defender our father in heaven.

I spent the first 20 years of my life in the "Churches of Christ" an Amil. Church who insisted on spiritualism of these things. Now when I was young it was suggested by them that I not concern myself with the OT but to concentrate my focus on the NT only and why they said was that the OT was for the OT Israel and that the New Covenant only pertained to me.

Any way I began asking Amil. preachers,deacons ect. the very same questions I am asking you and your answer is answer number(who knows in the thousands) and the only thing in common is that they always said it was spiritual. After that now is that if I ask you you say it means this and the first Amil preacher I that ask told me we were all the MoS. Over the years I ask the different deacons of these things and they gave a different spiritual answer to the same questions.

I ask the Amil preachers and deacons at my grandparents Church and when they answered them spiritually their ideas of what this meant were completely different than the Amil Church I went to at home. After I grew up and moved to another town I went to an Amil Church and their preacher and deacons gave different spiritual answers than the other two Amil Churches I had attended.

In the end Garee I would suggest that if you are convinced these things are all to be interpreted spiritually you begin at the Amil Churches and see to it that if you all see to interpret these spiritually that you all agree on what they spiritually mean and that you all say they mean the same things,,,,after all the witness of two men is true.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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I spent the first 20 years of my life in the "Churches of Christ" an Amil. Church who insisted on spiritualism of these things. Now when I was young it was suggested by them that I not concern myself with the OT but to concentrate my focus on the NT only and why they said was that the OT was for the OT Israel and that the New Covenant only pertained to me.
Any way I began asking Amil. preachers,deacons ect. the very same questions I am asking you and your answer is answer number(who knows in the thousands) and the only thing in common is that they always said it was spiritual. After that now is that if I ask you you say it means this and the first Amil preacher I that ask told me we were all the MoS. Over the years I ask the different deacons of these things and they gave a different spiritual answer to the same questions.

I ask the Amil preachers and deacons at my grandparents Church and when they answered them spiritually their ideas of what this meant were completely different than the Amil Church I went to at home. After I grew up and moved to another town I went to an Amil Church and their preacher and deacons gave different spiritual answers than the other two Amil Churches I had attended.

In the end Garee I would suggest that if you are convinced these things are all to be interpreted spiritually you begin at the Amil Churches and see to it that if you all see to interpret these spiritually that you all agree on what they spiritually mean and that you all say they mean the same things,,,,after all the witness of two men is true.




Hi thanks

That seems odd concern myself with the OT but to concentrate my focus on the NT ?

I would suggest it was never about the flesh but the unsen things of the spirit. When we make it about men as in those play who is the Alfa Jesus got ignored .

Trying to teach them to walk by faith using the parables to aid in and not looking to the things seen the temporal. That who is the church who defines the us Him or those who go out from us as he defines it. It can viewed in both Mark 9 and Luke 9 a lesson on how to hear by faith . . . .through the understandings of parables, after three times still not understanding how faith the gospel message is hid in parables. . ending with a rebuke. . . "You know not what manner of spirit you are of. . . . pointing to the spirt of the world "who is the greatest"

whenever two or three are gathered together under the authority of God (sola scriptura) he is there as the invisible teacher lovingingly comandmnding them to study inorfder to seek his aporoval . But in the multitude of his conselors the word of God their is safety. Not a salvation issue but how do we hear God like fingerprints we all have on our opinions as preiave interptation or hereises . many difernt traditons as long as they do not do despite to the grace that bought us like cathilicicsm for one.

Jesus in a parable talks about His Death. Hiding the understanding as a teaching aid as to how to walk by faith the unseen .


Luke 9: The people were still amazed about all the things Jesus did. He said to his followers, 44 “Don’t forget what I will tell you now: The Son of Man will soon be handed over to the control of other men.” 45 But the followers did not understand what he meant. The meaning was hidden from them so that they could not understand it. But they were afraid to ask Jesus about what he said.

Immediately in a place of confusion to show they missed the understanding …. Who Is the Greatest? Out the way confusing one.

Luke 9:46 Jesus’ followers began to have an argument about which one of them was the greatest. 47 Jesus knew what they were thinking, so he took a little child and stood the child beside him. 48 Then he said to the followers, “Whoever accepts a little child like this in my name is accepting me. And anyone who accepts me is also accepting the one who sent me. The one among you who is the most humble—this is the one who is great.”

Again he set a parable to help aid in walking by faith. . . understand God not seen . . Whoever Is Not Against You or us, Is for You or us.

Luke 9:49 John answered, “Master, we saw someone using your name to force demons out of people. We told him to stop because he does not belong to our group.” Jesus said to him, “Don’t stop him. Whoever is not against you is for you.”

Setting up another to teach us how to walk or understand God without seeing any form called faith . A Samaritan Town

Luke 9:51 The time was coming near when Jesus would leave and go back to heaven. He decided to go to Jerusalem. He sent some men ahead of him. They went into a town in Samaria to make everything ready for him. But the people there would not welcome Jesus because he was going toward Jerusalem. James and John, the followers of Jesus, saw this. They said, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and destroy those people?”

After that he was disappointed that they refused to rightly divide the parables as the word of God. But rather followed after the spirit of this world walking by sight

Luke 9:55 But Jesus turned and criticized them for saying this. Then he and his followers went to another town.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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That is also my position.
All die who refuse the mark.
YES, mass executions, such as NEVER BEFORE IN HISTORY.

Will make this scene look like a small party with executions.

1568058409533.jpeg

 

tourist

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Mar 13, 2014
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thats great artwork i agree.

i just want to know has anyone here ever changed their minds about eschatology? (study of end times) i know dcon was pre-trib in the past.

i was amill in the past.

any others?
Yeah, I used to believe in the rapture, pre-trib, but now don't believe that was a spiritually sound position.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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AMEN!

Thank You for posting that VIDEO. Dave Hunt is one of my Favorite Teachers.
me too i like dave hunt.

you know whats crazy all but one preachers i listen to are pre-tribbers lol!