The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

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J

joaniemarie

Senior Member
#221
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
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#221
Ahwatukee said:
Hello Joaniemarie,

Actually it is apart of the gospel. Without the threat of hell, there would be no gospel. What would Jesus come to save us from?



And the good news is that, Jesus saved us from condemning judgement and the lake of fire. Otherwise, if there is no threat, then there would be no good news, because Jesus would not have come to save us from anything. You can't separate them.

The gospel is Jesus Christ crucified, buried and resurrected. And He did all of that to save us from condemning judgment in the lake of fire. So the good news is that Jesus saved us from hell.
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You know I agree with much of what you post Ahwatukee especially the rapture of the church among many other things. But hell is not good news. Getting saved from hell is good news... but for me., that comes under the benefits of being saved. There is much to this "so great a salvation".

I tell people of the love of God in Christ and how perfect love casts out fear. The unsaved have tons to fear every day.,every second they could die and be gone where they have no idea. Jesus is the SAVIOR from sin and death and hell. So I have found that Good news to be the focus. JESUS SAVES!

Yes., there is a hell and yes, it can be avoided by anyone who calls on the name of Jesus. But it's the love of God in Christ where all the answers are. That's just the way I sees it brother. I can know all the truths in the Bible and be doctrinally sound but without knowing about the love of God IN Christ., it's all secondary.

 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#222
Jul 3, 2015
57,117
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#222
The word hell is a translation of at least four different words in the original languages. Nobody escapes death. The good news is that death is not forever for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ's propitiatory sacrifice upon the cross, where He took on the penalty of sin and paid the ultimate price for us due to His great love for us. He Who knew no sin became sin for us. Being covered by His righteous blood, we pass from death into life ever after following the resurrection and judgment of all. Those not covered by the atoning blood of Christ pass into the second death, and then death AND hell are thrown into the lake of fire and are no more.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#223
#223
Just curious from what you have studied, since I have been looking at the doctrine of hell and the lake of fire, do you think the lake of fire is really a place of fire?



Magenta said:
The word hell is a translation of at least four different words in the original languages. Nobody escapes death. The good news is that death is not forever for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ's propitiatory sacrifice upon the cross, where He took on the penalty of sin and paid the ultimate price for us due to His great love for us. He Who knew no sin became sin for us. Being covered by His righteous blood, we pass from death into life ever after following the resurrection and judgment of all. Those not covered by the atoning blood of Christ pass into the second death, and then death AND hell are thrown into the lake of fire and are no more.
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PrynceNY

PrynceNY

Banned
#224
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
62
0
#224
Ahwatukee said:
The gospel is Jesus Christ crucified, buried and resurrected. And He did all of that to save us from condemning judgment in the lake of fire. So the good news is that Jesus saved us from hell.
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Dealing with people that hold on to the annihilation doctrine like theres no tomorrow it's best to just let them believe whatever makes themselves feel better. The Lord will reveal the truth to them eventually once they are willing to accept it
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#225
Jul 3, 2015
57,117
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#225
PrynceNY said:
Dealing with people that hold on to the annihilation doctrine like theres no tomorrow it's best to just let them believe whatever makes themselves feel better. The Lord will reveal the truth to them eventually once they are willing to accept it
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Scripture uses the word perish and destroy, but it must make you feel better to think that God will torture and torment people forever after even though His Word explicitly states only He is immortal and that those not covered by the righteous blood of Christ pass into the second death, and that the dead know nothing. Whatever floats your boat, eh? Maybe some day God will reveal His Truth to you... if you are willing to accept it.
 
PrynceNY

PrynceNY

Banned
#226
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
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#226
Magenta said:
Scripture uses the word perish and destroy, but it must make you feel better to think that God will torture and torment people forever after even though His Word explicitly states only He is immortal and that those not covered by the righteous blood of Christ pass into the second death, and that the dead know nothing. Whatever floats your boat, eh? Maybe some day God will reveal His Truth to you... if you are willing to accept it.
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Nah i actually rather proclaim the truth even if it makes me uncomfortable. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is God and his word not my feelings. In which many preach from their feelings more so than Gods word.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#227
Jul 3, 2015
57,117
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#227
PrynceNY said:
Nah i actually rather proclaim the truth even if it makes me uncomfortable. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is God and his word not my feelings. In which many preach from their feelings more so than Gods word.
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You promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation.
 
Desertsrose

Desertsrose

Senior Member
#228
Oct 24, 2016
2,824
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#228
Grace777x70 said:
Hi Desertsrose,


That scripture no where says that the rich man lived an unrepented life - that's reading into the scriptures. The rich man simply asked Abraham to go tell his brothers about this place.

But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Trying to live by the Law will always bring failure because they are eating from the wrong tree.

Works do not save us - Christ alone by His grace and finished work on the cross is what saves us. Relying on the works of the law will always bring failure.

There is definitely a hell and for those that reject Christ's sacrifice for their sins will experience that.

IMO - This story about the rich man and Lazarus is definitely a parable talking about the Jewish system but you are free to have your own opinions. The gospel of the grace of God in Christ is what we live by now.
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Hi Grace,

And why did he want Abraham to go and tell them about this place of torment? Because he knew they lived an unrepentant life as he did. They didn't have the faith of Abraham. That's why this rich man is not with Abraham at death. He knew why he was there; why he was in torment.

It might help if you'd listen to good teachers that exegete instead of eisegete scriptures and learn how to rightly divide the word of truth so that you can discern the error you're listening to and following. I listened to WOF for a while and saw the error of their ways. I pray that one day you will too.

Living by the law was not what was in error. Living by the law without faith is what was in error.

Those who truly have faith will obey. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. If we're going to obey Jesus it requires faith to do so. James says faith without works is dead.......works without faith is dead.....it works both ways. Jesus said the same thing. In John he tells us to abide in Him and to abide in Him means we obey Him. That's the proof in the pudding so to speak. If you love me keep my commandments.

Yes, the gospel of grace is what we live by and that faith in the good news works. If I love the Lord with all my heart I will obey his commandments.

This rich man had no faith and therefore didn't obey the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. And that's why he was found to be in torment in hell.
 
PrynceNY

PrynceNY

Banned
#229
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
62
0
#229
Magenta said:
You promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation.
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Magenta if you want to continue believe in the false doctrine of annihilation be my guest. If it makes you feel beeter that's good as well.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#230
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#230
PrynceNY said:
The wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath surely doesn't sound like burning for a few mins js
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If you want to believe a doctrine by misrepresenting the opposing view, do so. But I do not see the wrath of God satisfied in a couple of minutes.

On the other hand I do not delight at the thought of souls being tortured for ever, especially as my Saviour said they would be punished with few stripes. But some people clearly do.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#231
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#231
PrynceNY said:
Magenta if you want to continue believe in the false doctrine of annihilation be my guest. If it makes you feel beeter that's good as well.
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She holds to Christadelphian error along with stoicism, but that's the tip if the iceberg. IOW her beliefs are pretty much Watchtower.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#232
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#232
Ahwatukee said:
Actually it is a part of the gospel. Without the threat of hell, there would be no gospel. What would Jesus come to save us from?
Click to expand...
He came to save us from SIN. But also from punishment. But why should that punishment result in eternal conscious consequences?


And the good news is that, Jesus saved us from condemning judgement and the lake of fire. Otherwise, if there is no threat, then there would be no good news, because Jesus would not have come to save us from anything. You can't separate them.
The gospel is Jesus Christ crucified, buried and resurrected. And He did all of that to save us from condemning judgment in the lake of fire. So the good news is that Jesus saved us from hell.
Click to expand...
Yes from destruction in the Lake of fire.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#233
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#233
preacher4truth said:
She holds to Christadelphian error along with stoicism, but that's the tip if the iceberg. IOW her beliefs are pretty much Watchtower.
Click to expand...
then you have not read her views. I would say she holds the New Testament position before Roman Catholicism changed it.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#234
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#234
PrynceNY said:
Dealing with people that hold on to the annihilation doctrine like theres no tomorrow it's best to just let them believe whatever makes themselves feel better. The Lord will reveal the truth to them eventually once they are willing to accept it
Click to expand...
I once held your views, But then I learned Greek and Hebrew and studied the Scriptures in the original.

No one has yet to show me a verse which says that the wicked will suffer conscious punishment in Hell for ever. They simply have to rely on doubtful Scriptures in Revelation, as though God let the world perish without knowing the truth for 4000 years and more.
 
PrynceNY

PrynceNY

Banned
#235
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
62
0
#235
valiant said:
If you want to believe a doctrine by misrepresenting the opposing view, do so. But I do not see the wrath of God satisfied in a couple of minutes. On the other hand I do not delight at the thought of souls being tortured for ever, especially as my Saviour said they would be punished with few stripes. But some people clearly do.
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Who delights in it? There are people who proclaim his word unashamed and then theres people who may be uncomfortable with it & proclaim a version that makes themselves feel better. In which in a sense they are displaying they are ashamed of his word. Of course not all of his word just the parts that makes them uncomfortable
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#236
#236
I have not studied this out, but I agree having been raised catholic, all teachings need to be studied out, there are not many teachings that have been planted in us and then we bring them to scripture.

I have never studied the doctrine of Hell but I do have questions.

We need to always be aware of the influence of history, the reformation was good, but it did not really fully break from the false teachings of the catechism of the roman church.

I think we have to aware of this, that is all I am saying, I guess to some this heretical, so be it.



valiant said:
I once held your views, But then I learned Greek and Hebrew and studied the Scriptures in the original.

No one has yet to show me a verse which says that the wicked will suffer conscious punishment in Hell for ever. They simply have to rely on doubtful Scriptures in Revelation, as though God let the world perish without knowing the truth for 4000 years and more.
Click to expand...
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#237
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#237
valiant said:
well if you think that providing a spectacle of suffering to the Lamb and the holy angels so that they can watch it for ever fits in with your idea of God, you must have a strange idea of God..#

I prefer my interpretation to yours.

But then you display your delight in the prospect of watching it yourselves, so it doesn't surprise me. Only fills me with sadness.
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Well, you HAD to say something, didn't you?

After all, you're valiant..... I didn't expect any less.

One can only fake knowledge & wisdom for so long, & before you know it, reaping time comes.....
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#238
Jul 18, 2017
24,842
13,174
113
#238
joaniemarie said:
I can know all the truths in the Bible and be doctrinally sound but without knowing about the love of God IN Christ., it's all secondary.
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Well here's the strange thing joaniemarie. The most quoted verse in the Bible -- John 3:16 -- which speaks so powerfully of God's love IN THE VERY SAME BREATH speaks of eternal Hell. And most people fail to grasp that these are the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If a preacher would preach just on this verse alone, he would sooner or later have to expound on "should not perish". And if he were a true Bible preacher, he would not fall into the error of the Annihilationists and say that "perish' means "extinction". He would have to faithfully expound on the Bible doctrine of Hell.

So what you are saying above is not reflected in Scripture. The love of God for sinners cannot be separated from the warnings of God about Hell. Indeed, the greatest love that you can show a lost person is to share BOTH the love of God and the existence of Hell, since they counterbalance each other. It is not secondary, but primary. People need to hear the bad news first before they can embrace the Good News of the Gospel.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#239
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#239
Magenta said:
You promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation.
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Ya know what? I've been reading Prynce's posts & I see nothing close to what you're saying.

The accuser of the brethren is Satan..... those that are used as his mouthpiece are his servants.That's just stating the truth..... your witness did the rest.

The above purple statement is full of irony & projection.

I think the readers know you a little better now.;)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#240
Jul 3, 2015
57,117
26,821
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#240
valiant said:
then you have not read her views. I would say she holds the New Testament position before Roman Catholicism changed it.
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Thank you Valiant. There is also the matter of both Christadelphians and JWs rejecting the deity of Christ. Anyone who knows anything about my theology knows that I am a staunch supporter of Christ's deity :)
 
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