The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#241
Jul 3, 2015
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#241
Nehemiah6 said:
Well here's the strange thing joaniemarie. The most quoted verse in the Bible -- John 3:16 -- which speaks so powerfully of God's love IN THE VERY SAME BREATH speaks of eternal Hell. And most people fail to grasp that these are the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Hell is not mentioned there at all, but the word perish is. I have already posted the meaning for this word, but it seems obvious you ignore the meaning. Here it is again for those who care about truth (word #622), the very words of Jesus Christ, as you say!

Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

​
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)

Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).

HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#242
Dec 12, 2013
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#242
valiant said:
Look at the context. This is talking in terms of Roman methods of the questioning of men before judges. That is why the Lamb and the angels are there. They do the questioning,

The men are being examined by torture, but only 'the smoke of their torment' arises for ever and ever. Always the means of punishment is what lasts for ever, not the consciousness of the men themselves.

Do you really think that the Lamb and His angels will watch gloatingly over the eternal torture of men, some of whom died very young? You might, they would never do so.

And the reason they are judged is because they never ceased (find no rest day or night) worshipping the beast (compare the same phrase in chapter 4).

There is no hint of people being kept alive to face torture eternally. It is sinful man who thinks like that.
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Sure there is......Revelation 20 and the second death...eternal seperation from God into the lake of fire
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#243
Dec 12, 2013
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#243
UnderGrace said:
Just curious from what you have studied, since I have been looking at the doctrine of hell and the lake of fire, do you think the lake of fire is really a place of fire?
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Yes......the.smoke of their torment ascending forever before the throne....and Jesus compared hell to the dump where the fires never end.....
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#244
#244
Guess I going to have to study up on that.

dcontroversal said:
Yes......the.smoke of their torment ascending forever before the throne....and Jesus compared hell to the dump where the fires never end.....
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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#245
Dec 12, 2013
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#245
UnderGrace said:
Guess I going to have to study up on that.
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Amen....all that one can be expected to do at the end of the day....just a simple question to ponder that seems to give some insight....IF hell/the lake of fire is not real, and one just simply gets snuffed out and is gone what motivating force could there possible be to get men to ponder eternity and then get right by faith? The bible is clear..God turns men to destruction (eternal) and expects them to repent and believe the gospel....why should men fear the Lord (the beginning of knowledge) if there is no consequence of rejection? To me it is whimsical to believe that God can make a body that can endure for eternity in paradise, but cannot make a body that endures eternity separated from God in the lake of fire.....If the righteous are rewarded with eternal life it stands to reason the lost are rewarded with eternal death...If the righteous are eternally rewarded it stands to reason the wicked are eternally judged....Knowing the precise application of the word of God and Jesus I will never believe he warns of an imaginary place that does not exist to get men to turn unto Him and His Father....that is deceptive and fraudulent.....and no one will convince me that God operates that way!
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#246
Jul 3, 2015
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#246
Who says hell and the lake of fire are not real? Now you are talking like those who say grace is a license to sin. And saying death is no consequence is likewise ridiculous! What you call whimsy is EXPLICITLY stated in Scripture, and what you call reason is a logical fallacy, for immortality is put on only through Christ, and that should be glaringly obvious to any Christian.

 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#248
Dec 12, 2013
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#248
Magenta said:
Who says hell and the lake of fire are not real? Now you are talking like those who say grace is a license to sin. And saying death is no consequence is likewise ridiculous! What you call whimsy is EXPLICITLY stated in Scripture, and what you call reason is a logical fallacy, for immortality is put on only through Christ, and that should be glaringly obvious to any Christian.
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I was not addressing you and no need to level vitriol at me.....we both know that you and I will never see eye to eye on this topic and all the things you stated can be equally said concerning the reality of hell/the lake of fire and the destiny of lost men.

I will also add...if it is real then why would Jesus warn men of it if it had no bearing on them....go to point a....if one dies and is not conscience of anything then the warning has no value...none....nadda
 
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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#249
Jul 3, 2015
57,115
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#249
dcontroversal said:
I was not addressing you and no need to level vitriol at me.....we both know that you and I will never see eye to eye on this topic and all the things you stated can be equally said concerning the reality of hell/the lake of fire and the destiny of lost men
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Then tone down your language. It is insulting and you know it, talking like we don't believe Scripture when I have given many Scriptures to support my view and you can give NONE to show the immortality of the soul aside from Christ, which is the basis for your error... Who here has said hell and the LoF do not exist?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#250
Dec 12, 2013
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#250
Magenta said:
Then tone down your language. It is insulting and you know it, talking like we don't believe Scripture when I have given many Scriptures to support my view and you can give NONE to show the immortality of the soul aside from Christ, which is the basis for your error... Who here has said hell and the LoF do not exist?
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Jesus warning men of the consequence of hell and the lake of fire is sufficient to prove it's application unto lost men.....regardless!
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#251
Jul 3, 2015
57,115
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#251
dcontroversal said:
I was not addressing you and no need to level vitriol at me.....we both know that you and I will never see eye to eye on this topic and all the things you stated can be equally said concerning the reality of hell/the lake of fire and the destiny of lost men.

I will also add...if it is real then why would Jesus warn men of it if it had no bearing on them....go to point a....if one dies and is not conscience of anything then the warning has no value...none....nadda
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If death means nothing to you as punishment perhaps you should alert the media and the courts of law, because they seem to have to all wrong. In fact, if death means nothing, why does humanity spend so much time attempting to protect, preserve, and prolong life in an attempt to thwart the certainty of death? According to Scripture, death is the cause of slavery to sin. Saying it means nada is the height of irrationality.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#252
Dec 12, 2013
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#252
Magenta said:
If death means nothing to you as punishment perhaps you should alert the media and the courts of law, because they seem to have to all wrong. In fact, if death means nothing, why does humanity spend so much time attempting to protect, preserve, and prolong life in an attempt to thwart the certainty of death? According to Scripture, death is the cause of slavery to sin. Saying it means nada is the height of irrationality.
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Take 2 seconds to look at what I am really saying and what the topic at hand is.......serious
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#253
Jul 3, 2015
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#253
dcontroversal said:
Jesus warning men of the consequence of hell and the lake of fire is sufficient to prove it's application unto lost men.....regardless!
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Yes, the living want to live. Is this news? Now we live in a world where death is glorified, and expedited, and legislated, but that is the result of sin. As a result of one man's sin death entered the world. As a result of any man's sin (refusal to accept God's plan for humanity through the covering of the cross of Christ) they shall pass into the second death. That is explicitly stated. The dead know nothing. That is explicitly stated. Only God is immortal. That is explicitly stated.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#254
Jul 3, 2015
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#254
dcontroversal said:
Take 2 seconds to look at what I am really saying and what the topic at hand is.......serious
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You are the one of the ones advocating that death is not a serious consequence.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#255
Dec 12, 2013
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#255
Magenta said:
Yes, the living want to live. Is this news? Now we live in a world where death is glorified, and expedited, and legislated, but that is the result of sin. As a result of one man's sin death entered the world. As a result of any man's sin (refusal to accept God's plan for humanity through the covering of the cross of Christ) they shall pass into the second death. That is explicitly stated. The dead know nothing. That is explicitly stated. Only God is immortal. That is explicitly stated.
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Yeah....we have done plowed this ground before concerning the dead not knowing anything.....and the application is applied to what is happening in the land of the living.....not some soul sleep or unconscience state.......

An honest truth....if this is the case, then Jesus used something false to teach what he taught in Luke 16 regardless if it was a parable or real occurance....think about that truth and be honest!
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#257
Jul 3, 2015
57,115
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#257
The most well known and possibly well loved Scripture of all time says it plainly as well: those who do not live in Christ shall PERSIH. God did not say to Adam, eat of this tree and I will torture and torment you forever. The wages of sin is DEATH; this too is explicitly stated, over and over again we are told that the wicked shall perish or be destroyed... that means they come to an end, they do not live forever in some corner of the renewed heavens and earth screaming in agony while the rest of us have forgotten them. Seriously, the God we serve is loving, just and merciful. It pains me that your view of loving just and merciful includes eternal torment.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#258
Mar 22, 2015
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#258
PrynceNY said:
Who delights in it? There are people who proclaim his word unashamed and then theres people who may be uncomfortable with it & proclaim a version that makes themselves feel better. In which in a sense they are displaying they are ashamed of his word. Of course not all of his word just the parts that makes them uncomfortable
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It is quite clear that there is a morbid delight of many here in the Roman Catholic doctrine of people eternally suffering in Hell.
I have seen very few statements of genuine regret at their condition. When I believed it I would defend it with regret and sadness. Not much sign of that here, and u you are one of them.

You have yet to present a single verse that actually teaches your doctrine. They are not there. All you have are verses which actually say the opposite which you twist to mean what you want them to say. Or verses which speak of the Devil and his minions.

As I read the arguments put up I am ashamed, ashamed of the way that so-called Christians can gloat over it.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#259
Mar 22, 2015
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#259
dcontroversal said:
Yeah....we have done plowed this ground before concerning the dead not knowing anything.....and the application is applied to what is happening in the land of the living.....not some soul sleep or unconscience state.......

An honest truth....if this is the case, then Jesus used something false to teach what he taught in Luke 16 regardless if it was a parable or real occurance....think about that truth and be honest!
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However we see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (and it is based on the Jewish belief in Abraham's bosom) it speaks only of a temporary situation BEFORE the judgment of the great white throne.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#260
Mar 22, 2015
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#260
dcontroversal said:
Jesus warning men of the consequence of hell and the lake of fire is sufficient to prove it's application unto lost men.....regardless!
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And Jesus spoke of God DESTROYING men's bodies and souls in Hell.
 
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