The Drinking of Blood

[Katy-follower]

When a person partakes of communion, what matters to God is that they do so with heartfelt thanks for what Christ did for them at Calvary, and praise and worship Him for this
Whether a person actually believes the bread and wine becomes Christ's body and blood I am convinced is not the important thing by any means, but HOW IN YOUR HEART you come before God in the partaking of communion, that is what matters to God.
Doctrine(apart from salvational issues) will never matter as much as does the heart to God, and the partaking of communion is not a salvation issue

Do ye in rememberence of me

Mark, I agree with much of what you've shared here in this thread, but I disagree with this post.

The communion/bread and wine is for believers only. Unless a person is born again of God, it doesn't make one bit of difference how many pieces of bread they take. They can believe in the existence of God and believe they are saved but unless they are truly born again they are not part of the body of Christ and therefore cannot partake in the bread and wine in remembrance.

We must worship God in Spirit and in truth.

Actually doctrine is pretty important. If one believes a different doctrine then they are not a part of God's family.

I have been to a couple of the catholic masses in the past. On arrival, everyone bows before a box before they are seated. I later found out it was a box containing the Eucharist, which they believe is Jesus literally in the bread and that they are bowing before Him. I'm sorry if this offends, but it is blasphemy. It is not the real Jesus. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. When He died on the cross, He said "it is finished' so this non bloody sacrificial mass is an insult to Him and the sacrifice He made for us.

The Eucharist is wrongly seen as being necessary for salvation. It is one of the sacraments that they believe they must take.

 

[mark54]

Mark, I agree with much of what you've shared here in this thread, but I disagree with this post.

The communion/bread and wine is for believers only. Unless a person is born again of God, it doesn't make one bit of difference how many pieces of bread they take. They can believe in the existence of God and believe they are saved but unless they are truly born again they are not part of the body of Christ and therefore cannot partake in the bread and wine in remembrance.

We must worship God in Spirit and in truth.

Actually doctrine is pretty important. If one believes a different doctrine then they are not a part of God's family.

I have been to a couple of the catholic masses in the past. On arrival, everyone bows before a box before they are seated. I later found out it was a box containing the Eucharist, which they believe is Jesus literally in the bread and that they are bowing before Him. I'm sorry if this offends, but it is blasphemy. It is not the real Jesus. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. When He died on the cross, He said "it is finished' so this non bloody sacrificial mass is an insult to Him and the sacrifice He made for us.

The Eucharist is wrongly seen as being necessary for salvation. It is one of the sacraments that they believe they must take.

Hi Katy
If the partaking of communion itself is not a salvational issue, for we do it in remembrance of what Christ did for us at Calvary, I do not believe whether we see the bread and wine actually as the blood and body of Christ can become a salvational issue either.
I have responded further to your post to me by pm
God Bless

 

[Katy-follower]

Hi Katy
If the partaking of communion itself is not a salvational issue, for we do it in remembrance of what Christ did for us at Calvary, I do not believe whether we see the bread and wine actually as the blood and body of Christ can become a salvational issue either.
I have responded further to your post to me by pm
God Bless

You don't see what it's really all about.

Catholics view the Eucharist as being necessary for salvation. It's one of their sacraments that they can't do without. How can you say this is a non salvation issue when the belief itself is contrary to scripture that says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Works are a fruit of salvation. Sacraments do not save a person.

Unless a person is born again they are not part of the body of Christ. Only those that are born again can partake in the bread and wine, which we take in remembrance.

 

[mark54]

You don't see what it's really all about.

Catholics view the Eucharist as being necessary for salvation. It's one of their sacraments that they can't do without. How can you say this is a non salvation issue when the belief itself is contrary to scripture that says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Works are a fruit of salvation. Sacraments do not save a person.



Unless a person is born again they are not part of the body of Christ. Only those that are born again can partake in the bread and wine, which we take in remembrance.

Do you believe that every person who attends a RC church will go to hell?

I don't myself

 

[Katy-follower]

Do you believe that every person who attends a RC church will go to hell?

I don't myself

Are you forming a personal opinion without looking to scripture?

A person who is not born again will not see the kingdom of Heaven.

God draws those He chooses. I know of many Catholics that became born again, but they then leave that church when they realize the teachings are in opposition to God's word. A person who becomes a new creature in Christ does not stick around in something that teaches a different doctrine. It's chalk and cheese. Once the Holy Spirit convicts a person, their eyes are opened and they no longer want to partake in things that aren't biblical.

 

[mark54]

Are you forming a personal opinion without looking to scripture?

A person who is not born again will not see the kingdom of Heaven.

God draws those He chooses. I know of many Catholics that became born again, but they then leave that church when they realize the teachings are in opposition to God's word. A person who becomes a new creature in Christ does not stick around in something that teaches a different doctrine. It's chalk and cheese. Once the Holy Spirit convicts a person, their eyes are opened and they no longer want to partake in things that aren't biblical.

As we agree on the main point of this discussion, and also as to the difference in Christ's treaching in John 6 and the act of taking communion I would like to leave it there if I may.
But I always appreciate reading your comments Katy
I am sorry for when we cannot reach agreement, but prefer to concentrate on what we do agree on
God Bless

 

[Katy-follower]

As we agree on the main point of this discussion, and also as to the difference in Christ's treaching in John 6 and the act of taking communion I would like to leave it there if I may.
But I always appreciate reading your comments Katy
I am sorry for when we cannot reach agreement, but prefer to concentrate on what we do agree on
God Bless

The discussion we were having was concerning those who believe sacraments are necessary for salvation -v- those who believe we are saved by grace through faith and not sacraments, or anything else. It is odd you don't agree with me on how a person is saved.

I hope you are not one that one day joins with Rome, which is what the bible says many are going to do in the last days.

 

[mark54]

The discussion we were having was concerning those who believe sacraments are necessary for salvation -v- those who believe we are saved by grace through faith and not sacraments, or anything else. It is odd you don't agree with me on how a person is saved.

Maybe one day you might join with Rome, which is what the bible says many are going to do in the last days.

Thing is Katy, I know of catholics who do believe we are saved by the grace of God through faith, and they know the bottom line is faith in Christ and not sacraments. But they still choose to stay in the RC church.
I do believe such a thing is possible, anmd does many times happen

For you can only have one bottom line, faith or works, and for many catholics it is faith

Incidentally, I have NEVER ONCE heard ANY Protestant minister plainly and fully preach the Gospel of grace from the pulpit Paul taught.
One Godly woman on another website said she felt the two denominations that found it hardest to accept the Grace of scripture were catholics and Pentecostals
I actually agree with her, but they are poles aprt doctrinally(or are supposed to
be)

 

[Katy-follower]

Thing is Katy, I know of catholics who do believe we are saved by the grace of God through faith, and they know the bottom line is faith in Christ and not sacraments. But they still choose to stay in the RC church.
I do believe such a thing is possible, anmd does many times happen

For you can only have one bottom line, faith or works, and for many catholics it is faith

Incidentally, I have NEVER ONCE heard ANY Protestant minister plainly and fully preach the Gospel of grace from the pulpit Paul taught.
One Godly woman on another website said she felt the two denominations that found it hardest to accept the Grace of scripture were catholics and Pentecostals
I actually agree with her, but they are poles aprt doctrinally(or are supposed to
be)

If a person believes we are saved by grace through faith (alone) then they believe that one can be born again in a prison cell, without need or access to anything, like the sacraments.

The Eucharist is at the heart of the Catholic church, it is her identity. Those who identify themselves as Catholic and attend a Catholic church also adhere to the beliefs of that church, otherwise why are they there? This is why when many become born again they leave, because they see that the church is built on false teachings. I don't understand why a person would remain when they have had their eyes opened. Would they not desire to fellowship with spiritual family, with those who they are equally yoked with?

I sat through a mass last year, which made me cringe. One who has the spirit would grieve at the false teachings and they would not be "fed" by teachings that are not biblical.

All Catholics claim to have faith, but that religion teaches a doctrine of works, which is in opposition to the word of God.

You use the mess of protestantism to support Catholicism, not realizing that there is a difference between religion and christian denominations. The majority of protestant churches are united on salvation, which is the most important one to get right. They differ when it comes to non salvational issues, like end times/eschatology etc and lately have become a mess as a result of accepting heretical teachings, so the protestant world has become a mess. However, Catholicism is not a christian denomination because they do not believe the true gospel, like that of the protestant world. If they did then they would leave behind the doctrine of works. One who believes Christ paid the price would not try to add to His work on the cross. It's simple. He did it all, we can do nothing. Salvation is offered as a free gift and we receive it through faith.

 

[mark54]

If a person believes we are saved by grace through faith (alone) then they believe that one can be born again in a prison cell, without need or access to anything, like the sacraments.

The Eucharist is at the heart of the Catholic church, it is her identity. Those who identify themselves as Catholic and attend a Catholic church also adhere to the beliefs of that church, otherwise why are they there? This is why when many become born again they leave, because they see that the church is built on false teachings. I don't understand why a person would remain when they have had their eyes opened. Would they not desire to fellowship with spiritual family, with those who they are equally yoked with?

I sat through a mass last year, which made me cringe. One who has the spirit would grieve at the false teachings and they would not be "fed" by teachings that are not biblical.

All Catholics claim to have faith, but that religion teaches a doctrine of works, which is in opposition to the word of God.

You use the mess of protestantism to support Catholicism, not realizing that there is a difference between religion and christian denominations. The majority of protestant churches are united on salvation, which is the most important one to get right. They differ when it comes to non salvational issues, like end times/eschatology etc and lately have become a mess as a result of accepting heretical teachings, so the protestant world has become a mess. However, Catholicism is not a christian denomination because they do not believe the true gospel, like that of the protestant world. If they did then they would leave behind the doctrine of works. One who believes Christ paid the price would not try to add to His work on the cross. It's simple. He did it all, we can do nothing. Salvation is offered as a free gift and we receive it through faith.

I grew up in a 'born again' protestant church. It was one of the three largest churches in Britain of its denomination.
The minister DID NOT preach the Gospel of grace Paul wrote from the pulpit. I grew up believing I had to perform virtually perfect to be a Christian. I was wracked with guilt and fear throughout my childhood because I feared hell due to not living a virtually perfect life.
Years later I finally read the NT for myself beyond the Gospels and was truly amazed at what I read
I could not earn my salvation
I could not deserve my salvation
I could only have one righteousness before God, faith in Christ
I did not have to be good enough for God

And yet, the church of my youth had an almost arrogance in believing they understood truth few other churches in the town(if any) followed
A works based Gospel DOES NOT simply require a person to believe in sacraments/rites/rituals, for the church of my youth only took communiom twice a month and made clear it was not a salvational requirement.

 

[mark54]

Katy
Could I add. A catholic on another website stated the following:

We come to God and ask forgiveness for our sins. We are then cleansed/purged without any sin in us. We must then strive to remain in this state of sinlessness, and for a time we may succeed, but when we do sin and this perfectly sinless state is no more we must once again seek to be cleansed/purged/forgiven of our sin if we are to remain with Christ. For if we die in this less than sinless state we must go to purgatpory for final sanctification,to be purged of our sin It was all about what WE must do in our own effort/strengthto remain sinless
I was shell shocked, that is eactly as I felt/believed as I grew up in a Protestant, born again, bible believing church

The only difference was purgatory was not mentioned in my church, I just believed if I could not be virtually perfect hell awaited

 

[7seven7]

Only in the last 500 years has anyone made the mistake of believing that communion is merely symbolic or anything other than what the Catholic Church has taught and believed for 2,000 years. The New Testament scriptures speak clearly and concisely and the writings of the Early Church prove that they too believed the very same thing. In other words they shared the self same Eucharistic beliefs that we Catholics do today because they were taught that same interpretation of the Word of God by the apostles themselves.

Unless of course one is willing to believe that St. John was a heretic and taught the men that he discipled wrong doctrine?

Two of St. John's best friends and disciples were Sts. Polycarp and St. Ignatius of Antioch. Both became bishops of churches and both paid with their lives for the faith. Polycarp was burned alive singing hymns and Ignatius was thrown to wild animals in Rome. St. John died in about 100 and Ignatius went to his about 10 years later.

Ignatius wrote letters to different churches and many of them survive today. In about 107 st. Ignatius wrote a very telling letter (link) to the church at Smyrna, and here's what he said about the Eucharist, what it means and those who don't agree.

CHAP. VII.--LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Not much doubt there is there? Just like the New Testament passages on this, he is very clear and up-front (even strict) about it.

People can believe whatever they please, but the fact is that like it or not, Catholic Eucharistic teaching is what agrees with the New Testament and the early church's teaching.

 

[mark54]

Only in the last 500 years has anyone made the mistake of believing that communion is merely symbolic or anything other than what the Catholic Church has taught and believed for 2,000 years. The New Testament scriptures speak clearly and concisely and the writings of the Early Church prove that they too believed the very same thing. In other words they shared the self same Eucharistic beliefs that we Catholics do today because they were taught that same interpretation of the Word of God by the apostles themselves.

Unless of course one is willing to believe that St. John was a heretic and taught the men that he discipled wrong doctrine?

Two of St. John's best friends and disciples were Sts. Polycarp and St. Ignatius of Antioch. Both became bishops of churches and both paid with their lives for the faith. Polycarp was burned alive singing hymns and Ignatius was thrown to wild animals in Rome. St. John died in about 100 and Ignatius went to his about 10 years later.

Ignatius wrote letters to different churches and many of them survive today. In about 107 st. Ignatius wrote a very telling letter (link) to the church at Smyrna, and here's what he said about the Eucharist, what it means and those who don't agree.

CHAP. VII.--LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Not much doubt there is there? Just like the New Testament passages on this, he is very clear and up-front (even strict) about it.

People can believe whatever they please, but the fact is that like it or not, Catholic Eucharistic teaching is what agrees with the New Testament and the early church's teaching.

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

 

[7seven7]

But again I will say, our Lord knows whats in the heart. He knows what we know and what we've been taught. I will NEVER EVER say that non catholics will go to hell because that's simply not true. The God i know and worship is a loving God that looks for reasons to love us, not ways to punish us. Love Him and live your life for Him according to what you believe (as a christian), and if you are truly content that what you believe is the truth, He will love you and welcome you Home in the end. Stop telling eachother that we're going to hell, because if you truly knew God, you would never say that to anyone. And also that is not a call for you to make. God bless.

 

[zone]

Only in the last 500 years has anyone made the mistake of believing that communion is merely symbolic or anything other than what the Catholic Church has taught and believed for 2,000 years

haha...RC is 2000 years old?
prove it 7 j.k....don't care.

BUT - who are ya blaming the symbolic communion on?
not Luther or Calvin i hope.

tell meh who, 7

zone

 

[mark54]

But again I will say, our Lord knows whats in the heart. He knows what we know and what we've been taught. I will NEVER EVER say that non catholics will go to hell because that's simply not true. The God i know and worship is a loving God that looks for reasons to love us, not ways to punish us. Love Him and live your life for Him according to what you believe (as a christian), and if you are truly content that what you believe is the truth, He will love you and welcome you Home in the end. Stop telling eachother that we're going to hell, because if you truly knew God, you would never say that to anyone. And also that is not a call for you to make. God bless.

I know a Godly
Chrstian couple. They gave up good jobs, to do the work of the Lord. They ran soup kitchens for the homelss, worked with ex offenders, ran a home for single mothers who had nowehere else to live. They spread the message of the Gospel as they went.
I saw them pray with a person constantly vomitting through alcohol abuse, the vomitting ceased
These people, took communion at church but did not see it as the actual body or blood of Christ, nor did they believe it was a salvational belief. They simply loved thier Lord and wanted to partake in love gratitude and rembrance for what Christ did for them at Calvary

Suppose someone else partakes of communion, they go to your church, believes it is a salvational belief, and believes they are eating the body and blood of Christ, they partake of other riotes, rituals and cereminies too.
But they don't do any other work for God, they just go to church once a week.

Which of the above people do you believe is closer to God, and He would be most pleased with?

 

[Katy-follower]

A great sermon! Message begins at: 08:19

[video=youtube_share;WQ4ga7c3sd0]http://youtu.be/WQ4ga7c3sd0[/video]

 

[zone]

I know a Godly
Chrstian couple. They gave up good jobs, to do the work of the Lord. They ran soup kitchens for the homelss, worked with ex offenders, ran a home for single mothers who had nowehere else to live. They spread the message of the Gospel as they went.
I saw them pray with a person constantly vomitting through alcohol abuse, the vomitting ceased
These people, took communion at church but did not see it as the actual body or blood of Christ, nor did they believe it was a salvational belief. They simply loved thier Lord and wanted to partake in love gratitude and rembrance for what Christ did for them at Calvary

Suppose someone else partakes of communion, they go to your church, believes it is a salvational belief, and believes they are eating the body and blood of Christ, they partake of other riotes, rituals and cereminies too.
But they don't do any other work for God, they just go to church once a week.

Which of the above people do you believe is closer to God, and He would be most pleased with?

He is pleased with HIS ONLY SON, WHO IS GOD, JESUS CHRIST.

 

[7seven7]

haha...RC is 2000 years old?
prove it 7 j.k....don't care.

BUT - who are ya blaming the symbolic communion on?
not Luther or Calvin i hope.

tell meh who, 7

zone

lol zone, I, my friend, am not playing the blame game. Quite frankly i really couldn't care less who started the symbolism thing because thats not what I believe. And, to tell you the truth, I really don't think about the symbolism thing very much, because again, Its not what I believe. God bless!
Hey what's that picture mean anyway? what was the significance?

 

[7seven7]

I know a Godly
Chrstian couple. They gave up good jobs, to do the work of the Lord. They ran soup kitchens for the homelss, worked with ex offenders, ran a home for single mothers who had nowehere else to live. They spread the message of the Gospel as they went.
I saw them pray with a person constantly vomitting through alcohol abuse, the vomitting ceased
These people, took communion at church but did not see it as the actual body or blood of Christ, nor did they believe it was a salvational belief. They simply loved thier Lord and wanted to partake in love gratitude and rembrance for what Christ did for them at Calvary

Suppose someone else partakes of communion, they go to your church, believes it is a salvational belief, and believes they are eating the body and blood of Christ, they partake of other riotes, rituals and cereminies too.
But they don't do any other work for God, they just go to church once a week.

Which of the above people do you believe is closer to God, and He would be most pleased with?

Brother, not all of us have the calling or feel the urge to feed the homeless. Some of us are called to just show the Lord's love through our faith and actions. The fact that all these people have so much faith and love for God is beautiful. Which one is God most pleased with? If you have children, do you love one more than the other? Thats really a question that God only can answer, and one that really doesn't concern us. But i can really sense and appreciate your concern in all this bro, and i SINCERELY PRAY that the Holy Spirit guides you to the answer you need. God bless you for you sincerety.