The Free Gift of Salvation

[MidniteWelder]

Such density. The wrath is from us, not God. It does not say God had wrath against us. If He did he would not have sent His Son to die for us. This "dead in trespasses" is the condemnation of death through Adam, administered by Satan. You could also say we were children of Satan. But God in no wise hated us, or had wrath against us.

No, sir I must object here's a few verses which instantly refute these statements.

Col 3
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices.

Yes it is ones own practices against God's will which make God angry to draw his wrath.

Yes we were once children of Satan as Jesus said, being illegitimate children

John 8
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.

They argued him stating they are not illegitimate children because they claim God, as many do but do not follow
Jesus specifically told them if they WERE the children of who they claimed they would do what their own FATHER DID.
Since they did not do nor practice what they claimed they testified by their own actions they are not of the Father they claim.
This is why we must be BORN AGAIN to a new Father.
This is why Christ died for us.
Not to purge our wrath toward God since killing Christ is fulfilling their wrath.
Christ's sacrifice is mercy purging God's wrath toward us.
But only to those who follow and do what their new Father does...as Christ has said.
Otherwise Jesus will plainly tell them..Depart from me I never knew you.

 

[Sirk]

Why is that even necesary when it is about what scripture means.
But I will oblige you, it is Orthodox.

Just wanted to know where you were coming from.

Why is it that so few actually understand what Christ acommplished for us. What the Gift of salvation actually is.

What the gift of salvation is???? That its a gift you receive whether you want it or not? Scripture does not support your false teaching.

 

[Cassian]

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
(Gal 3:10)


Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(Rom 3:19-20)


yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
(Gal 2:16)


Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Rom 3:27-28)


For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
(Rom 8:3)


The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Co 15:56-57)

This is what is so mystifying about your theology and understanding of scripture.

everyone of these references in this context is condemning the very work Christ did for us because we could not save ourselves from death and sin.,

Everytime Paul brings up the "works of the law" he is actually speaking about what Christ accomplished for us, because we could not do this work. Therefore any works we attempt or think we do to save ourselves from death and sin, is futile, since we could not do this work.

I will go even further to show you theogically based on scripture that even if man lived a perfect life, without sin (after the fall) like Christ did, we still could not save ourselves.
Why? Because sin is a secondary problem for man. The primary problem for man is that we were already condemned to death. Whether we sinned or did not sin, cannot give us life. ONLY the giver of life, could restore life to a dead mortal being. The resurrection of Christ is the central aspect of His gift to us, because without it everything else is null and void.
This is explained explicitly in I Cor 15:12-22 with the insert of vs 17 telling us that if not for the resurrection, all is in vain.

Those who don't understand the difference between the law of works and its intent, and the law of faith do not understand salvation, the Gift of salvation to all men, the work of Christ from the response of that work which is all of man.

 

[crossnote]

This is what is so mystifying about your theology and understanding of scripture.

everyone of these references in this context is condemning the very work Christ did for us because we could not save ourselves from death and sin.,

Everytime Paul brings up the "works of the law" he is actually speaking about what Christ accomplished for us, because we could not do this work. Therefore any works we attempt or think we do to save ourselves from death and sin, is futile, since we could not do this work.

I will go even further to show you theogically based on scripture that even if man lived a perfect life, without sin (after the fall) like Christ did, we still could not save ourselves.
Why? Because sin is a secondary problem for man. The primary problem for man is that we were already condemned to death. Whether we sinned or did not sin, cannot give us life. ONLY the giver of life, could restore life to a dead mortal being. The resurrection of Christ is the central aspect of His gift to us, because without it everything else is null and void.
This is explained explicitly in I Cor 15:12-22 with the insert of vs 17 telling us that if not for the resurrection, all is in vain.

Those who don't understand the difference between the law of works and its intent, and the law of faith do not understand salvation, the Gift of salvation to all men, the work of Christ from the response of that work which is all of man.

You're all over the heretical map.
Listen you skipped this post of mine, can you address Rev 20:15?

"If that is your view (universal salvation) have fun.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15)

Doesn't sound like universal salvation to me. "

 

[Cassian]

If that is your view have fun.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15)

Doesn't sound like universal salvation to me.

That is absolute ignorance on your part both to what I have been saying, scripture means, and shows an ignorance of what is meant by Universal Salvation.

I guess the old adage applies, If you don't understand it just make unfounded, irrelevant assertions.

 

[Sirk]

This is what is so mystifying about your theology and understanding of scripture.

everyone of these references in this context is condemning the very work Christ did for us because we could not save ourselves from death and sin.,

Everytime Paul brings up the "works of the law" he is actually speaking about what Christ accomplished for us, because we could not do this work. Therefore any works we attempt or think we do to save ourselves from death and sin, is futile, since we could not do this work.

I will go even further to show you theogically based on scripture that even if man lived a perfect life, without sin (after the fall) like Christ did, we still could not save ourselves.
Why? Because sin is a secondary problem for man. The primary problem for man is that we were already condemned to death. Whether we sinned or did not sin, cannot give us life. ONLY the giver of life, could restore life to a dead mortal being. The resurrection of Christ is the central aspect of His gift to us, because without it everything else is null and void.
This is explained explicitly in I Cor 15:12-22 with the insert of vs 17 telling us that if not for the resurrection, all is in vain.

Those who don't understand the difference between the law of works and its intent, and the law of faith do not understand salvation, the Gift of salvation to all men, the work of Christ from the response of that work which is all of man.

What are you smoking? On the one hand you exalt what Christ did on the cross and on the other you condemn it. Then you accuse those of us who are relying completely on what Jesus did for us on the cross as not relying completely on what Christ did for us on the cross. You speak with a forked tongue and out of both sides of your mouth. You speak death and destruction and pervert the gospel. Goodbye.

 

[Cassian]

No, sir I must object here's a few verses which instantly refute these statements.

Col 3
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices.

Yes it is ones own practices against God's will which make God angry to draw his wrath.
Yes we were once children of Satan as Jesus said, being illegitimate children

John 8
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.

They argued him stating they are not illegitimate children because they claim God, as many do but do not follow
Jesus specifically told them if they WERE the children of who they claimed they would do what their own FATHER DID.
Since they did not do nor practice what they claimed they testified by their own actions they are not of the Father they claim.
This is why we must be BORN AGAIN to a new Father.
This is why Christ died for us.
Not to purge our wrath toward God since killing Christ is fulfilling their wrath.
Christ's sacrifice is mercy purging God's wrath toward us.
But only to those who follow and do what their new Father does...as Christ has said.
Otherwise Jesus will plainly tell them..Depart from me I never knew you.

So you do a word search for wrath and post them not knowing the difference. Even though you do comment on them.
Of Course God will have wrath (judgment ) against those that reject Him. God could not possibly have wrath on man before Christ saved us from death and sin.
Having freed mankind from the condemnation through Adam, sin now becomes man's responsibility. We can now actually be condemned for our sin.
How can God condemn us for sin, when we were already condemned through Adam.
It is beyond me just what some of you actually believe regarding scripture.

 

[MidniteWelder]

God could not possibly have wrath on man before Christ saved us from death and sin.

What do you call Sodom and Gomorrah ?

 

[crossnote]

That is absolute ignorance on your part both to what I have been saying, scripture means, and shows an ignorance of what is meant by Universal Salvation.

I guess the old adage applies, If you don't understand it just make unfounded, irrelevant assertions.

Or the old adage, if you can't win an argument...start insulting.

 

[crossnote]

That is absolute ignorance on your part both to what I have been saying, scripture means, and shows an ignorance of what is meant by Universal Salvation.

I guess the old adage applies, If you don't understand it just make unfounded, irrelevant assertions.

Or the old adage, if you can't answer Scripture...start insulting.

 

[Cassian]

What are you smoking? On the one hand you exalt what Christ did on the cross and on the other you condemn it. Then you accuse those of us who are relying completely on what Jesus did for us on the cross as not relying completely on what Christ did for us on the cross. You speak with a forked tongue and out of both sides of your mouth. You speak death and destruction and pervert the gospel. Goodbye.

Another one who has no understanding of scripture. They devise their own little theologies of salvation and because they got a little help from scripture, they cannot tolerate even another of many other theologies available, but reject the Gospel of Christ as it was from the Beginning.

Have any of you ever heard of the Incarnation? The ONLY content of this discussion for several pages now, has been about the Incarnation of Christ and its salvific content.

What is amazing is that so many of you think you are being saved just because Christ became Incarnated, and now you don't have anything to do. But worse, you even think that it is possible for someone to add to Christ work through His Incarnation. To think that one can help Christ rise from the dead by loving his neighbor.

If you are not familiar with it, it is one of the benchmarks of historiclal Christianity. It has withstood three major false teachings against it, but it has been believed, understood, and existed from the beginning.
Are so many of you buried, with your head in the sand when it comes to understanding scripture?

 

[Cassian]

Or the old adage, if you can't answer Scripture...start insulting.

Yours was the insult, based on your ignorance. Mine was factual.

 

[Cassian]

Or the old adage, if you can't win an argument...start insulting.

Also, I don't need to WIN an argument. The Gospel of Christ has stood unchanged for 2000 years. Many men have assulted it with their theories, but all were denied by the work of the Holy Spirit in preserving His Gospel as He intended.

 

[Cassian]

What do you call Sodom and Gomorrah ?

Let us leave out God's foreknowledge even of Adam's fall. So lets start with God's promise to Adam in Gen 3:15. The solution to the fall starts at Gen 3:15. It was just that God did not put Christ into history until His opportune time. He is not even done now yet. He still needs to come one more time to consummate all things. We live in hope the same as Abraham did. The only difference we know Christ came the first time, but await in hope of His Second Coming.

 

[MidniteWelder]

Let us leave out God's foreknowledge even of Adam's fall. So lets start with God's promise to Adam in Gen 3:15. The solution to the fall starts at Gen 3:15.
It was just that God did not put Christ into history until His opportune time. He is not even done now yet. He still needs to come one more time to consummate all things. We live in hope the same as Abraham did. The only difference we know Christ came the first time, but await in hope of His Second Coming.

Diversion...evading the question.
Lastly, Christ was there from the beginning...including before Adam
perhaps you need to look again.

 

[Cassian]

Just wanted to know where you were coming from.



What the gift of salvation is???? That its a gift you receive whether you want it or not? Scripture does not support your false teaching.

Then I'll ask you what is the Gift of salvation? Be specific.

 

[Cassian]

Diversion...evading the question.
Lastly, Christ was there from the beginning...including before Adam
perhaps you need to look again.

The Son existed before time. He did not yet have His Human nature.

So we go with that God hated mankind and go against scripture. Does God still hate mankind?
Is God love or something else in your view? Is he hate?

What was the purpose of saving man if He hated man?

If God is present in hell, since man will always be a creature, and needs God's grace to uphold life, and God loves even those that reject Him, even those that killed Him. Or do you think that God can command us to love our enemies while He does not need to love those that reject Him?

 

[Cassian]

this was a double post.

 

[MidniteWelder]

The Son existed before time. He did not yet have His Human nature.

So we go with that God hated mankind and go against scripture. Does God still hate mankind?
Is God love or something else in your view? Is he hate?

What was the purpose of saving man if He hated man?

If God is present in hell, since man will always be a creature, and needs God's grace to uphold life, and God loves even those that reject Him, even those that killed Him. Or do you think that God can command us to love our enemies while He does not need to love those that reject Him?

I suggest you ask these questions to God and seek direct scripture for the answers.
Not stories from the internet or pastors commentaries but direct scripture one on one you and God.

A person asking so many questions shows lack of Faith
(I haven't mentioned the word hate, that was your own addition as a means of deception to twist the topic to your own agenda)
try and forget your own personal opinions
and rely not on your own understanding any longer

 

[Cassian]

I suggest you ask these questions to God and seek direct scripture for the answers.
Not stories from the internet or pastors commentaries but direct scripture one on one you and God.

A person asking so many questions shows lack of Faith
try and forget your own personal opinions
and rely not on your own understanding any longer

Really? Nice cop out. You cannot answer the questions based on your unscriptural comments. Maybe that is reasonable.

The thing is I don't have any opinions. This is the Gospel of Christ as He gave it and has preserved it. Which is why you cannot refute it. If you could you could cite the facts to do so. All you have in your personal opinion. Which is why so many are all over the map in understanding the most basic of Christianity's tenets, the Incarnation. Its like most never even heard of it.