The Gap vs. New Creationism Propaganda

[DP]

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.



This is a subject that is so volatile that we better explain precisely. And you do a waaaaayyyyy better job than me. But something I caught here. He shook the earth once before to remove angels or satan 'works' from the earth.

I know satan was created like us as a rational creature. But we had better differentiate angels from mankind. Otherwise we will go through 10 pages trying to splain ourselves.

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; andbehold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

Those 2 verses, the part in red, was about the time when Satan rebelled against God in wanting to be The GOD. That is when he drew a third of the angels ("stars") to the earth with him.

Notice that beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. The beast kingdom of Rev.13:1-2 in the next Revelation chapter has ten crowns. Why are they different? Simply because the beast kingdom in Rev.12:3-4 is about the system that Satan rebelled against God with in the world before this one. The Rev.13:1 beast kingdom is set for the very end of our world.

Study Ezekiel 31 and think about who all God is speaking that parable about, especially since the one of whom He speaks was once in His Garden of Eden. The idea of a high cedar of Lebanon is a symbol used of royalty in God's Word.

 

[Dino246]

Now we're getting some actual discussion. That's good.

 

[Monnkai]

Well... this OP certainly does nothing to encourage discussion, as it disparages one interpretation of Scripture in favour of another, as though the first is wrong and the second 'unquestionably' correct. With as much (and I think far more) scriptural support, young-earth creation can be argued convincingly. Does that mean that belief in still-living dinosaurs is an intrinsic part of the YEC viewpoint? Not at all. However, such a belief is consistent with a YE view, and with scientific data. If you want to promote an interpretation, do it on its own merits, not at the expense of another view. I'd guess you've been listening to too much political rhetoric and too little sound debate.

Answer me one single question, DP: how does DNA, which by scientific study is estimated to last no longer than about 10,000 years, still exist in T.rex soft tissues which, according to oec and evolutionary propaganda, are about 65 million years old?

ever hear of Mokèlé-mbèmbé? Its a sauropod that supposedly lives in the Congo. I've also heard of Tetradactyl sightings in Wisconsin. There not called dinosaurs there called Cryptids now. Like Bigfoot, Mothman, Jersey Devil ect. So I'm thinking if there is some truth to young earth I think it would make sense for a few to exist still

 

[Tintin]

If we get down to the nitty gritty. Are you really a creationist? Does God create human life or has he handed it over to us?

Of course, I'm a biblical creationist. God creates life.

 

[Tintin]

That's kind of like saying, "Creationists don't believe the Gap idea is based on evolution, but it's linked to evolutionary theory."

My Cherokee ancestors would say that's speaking with a 'fork-ed tongue'.

I said, 'the gap theory makes use of the same uniformitarian timeline that evolutionary theory does'. That's different to saying it's entirely compatible with evolutionary theory. I can't help it if you have problems with basic comprehension.

 

[tanakh]

Since God spoke all of creation into existence why would I doubt that God could create things that appear billions of years old in an instant as well?

What is time to God Who inhabits all of eternity?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Why on earth would God want to make things look billions of years old? It makes God look like a bigger deceiver than Satan.

 

[posthuman]

It kind of goes along with this:

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

Consider to what level of shaking is being spoken of there. What kind of an event would the shaking to remove things on the earth that are made, like man's works, while God's works (creation) remain, signify?

((considered))


if you look at the preceding text, Hebrews 12:1-24, it seems to me that the author is talking about those who were under Moses, and how that God's voice shook the earth then, at Sinai -- and people did not escape the one who spoke from earth (Moses), meaning that they did not escape the judgements of the law, but received every punishment according to it, and when they walked away from God and took up idols, they received also every punishment ascribed to them through the mouth of prophets, who also spoke from earth.

. . & now we have been spoken to from heaven, by CHrist, who came down from there, and communed with mankind, and then went up again. so how should we think to escape His wrath if we reject Him, since those who lived under the covenant made at Sinai did not escape wrath? and the author of Hebrews has just made the case that Christ is so much greater than Moses


you don't have to imagine there was a whole other age of creation and judgement in order to comprehend this passage. but you do have to rip it completely out of its context in order to use it to support that idea.

 

[posthuman]

That's kind of like saying, "Creationists don't believe the Gap idea is based on evolution, but it's linked to evolutionary theory."

My Cherokee ancestors would say that's speaking with a 'fork-ed tongue'.

that's not what he's saying at all.

all Tintin is saying is that this 'gap theory' believes the earth is very old, and 'evolutionists' ((such a loose term...)) also believe the earth is very old.

that's where the similarities end.

it only means they are "linked" in the same way that if you found a coin that was minted the same year you were born, you are linked to it. only because you are both just as old. that's all. other than that you don't really share any similarities with the coin; it's a coin, for goodness sake, and you are a person.

 

[posthuman]

Why on earth would God want to make things look billions of years old? It makes God look like a bigger deceiver than Satan.

yeah, that really bugs me too.

isn't this place supposed to be able to teach us His invisible qualities?
deception isn't one of them.

if we reject outright the idea that God would create a deceptive cosmos, then either it is that old, roughly, or all archaeology, geology, paleontology, astrophysics, etc. is rubbish . . ?

*shrug* maybe it is all rubbish. seems like a whole lot to be monumentally wrong about is all. but it's possible?

it just seems to me that it's easier to believe i am wrong in the way i understand Genesis than for so many others so much more brilliant and dedicated to their work to be wrong. but a lot of people think differently, and maybe they are right instead.

these are things "too wonderful for me" heh

 

[LaurenTM]

people seem to believe that faith in God cannot exist OUTSIDE the perimeters of scripture

in other words, God exits ONLY INSIDE the Bible

the only things He ever did are recorded in the Bible etc etc

I don't consider God that way

I take the Bible as the authoritative word of God...BUT I also take GOD as my authority

if a person cannot discuss the concepts of God and the scriptures, it's just too bad then, right?

personally, I think people are threatened. threatened in the same way so many churches want religion...but NOT the power of God...

religion has been used to control people since time began...nothing has changed...

you cannot argue verses from the Bible as proof of the wrong question

 

[prove-all]

The big bang?

Just a few generations ago, general consensus was that the universe had no beginning and no end—
it just always was. Evolutionists found this convenient, as it contradicted the biblical creation account.

Evidence began to refute this idea in the 1920s. Data showed that distant objects were drifting away
from our galaxy. Edwin Hubble, by measuring the wavelengths of light coming from other galaxies,
determined that the universe is expanding in all directions.

This discovery set the scientific world on fire. After all, if the universe is moving apart, then at
one time it must have been compressed in a single location. It must have had a beginning.

The big bang theory was born.

The big bang idea has undergone significant refinement and revision over its near-80-year lifespan; today, cosmologists are developing and testing a few dozen variations of it. But in essence the idea is that, somewhere between 10 and 15 billion years ago, the entire universe came to exist suddenly, dramatically, in an infinitesimally brief moment. Theoretical physicist Brian Greene describes the “inflationary” big bang model this way: “[T]he size of the universe increased by a factor larger than a million trillion trillion in less than a millionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second” (The Fabric of the Cosmos).

There appears to be much solid evidence that the basics of the theory are correct. Reliable measurements have confirmed that the universe was far hotter in the past and is cooling as it expands. Faint background radiation still fills the cosmos at a highly uniform temperature; scientists believe this is a result of that rapid initial cooling. The universe’s galaxies all appear to have been formed during the window of time that the big bang model predicts. Photos show that the farther we look out into space (hence the further back in time, since light requires time to reach our telescopes), the more densely packed the galaxies are.


These are just a few of many proofs that the universe had a definite beginning.
Science has proven that the universe did not always exist. It had a beginning,
and it is older then 6000 years

 

[DP]

I said, 'the gap theory makes use of the same uniformitarian timeline that evolutionary theory does'. That's different to saying it's entirely compatible with evolutionary theory. I can't help it if you have problems with basic comprehension.

My car is the color green, but so is the grass, yet that doesn't mean they have any other correlation. That's about as close as man's evolutionary theory is to the Gap idea, so likewise, I'm sorry you're not able to comprehend that. Obviously, this is a Biblical matter God has not given you to know.

 

[DP]

((considered))


if you look at the preceding text, Hebrews 12:1-24, it seems to me that the author is talking about those who were under Moses, and how that God's voice shook the earth then, at Sinai -- and people did not escape the one who spoke from earth (Moses), meaning that they did not escape the judgements of the law, but received every punishment according to it, and when they walked away from God and took up idols, they received also every punishment ascribed to them through the mouth of prophets, who also spoke from earth.

. . & now we have been spoken to from heaven, by CHrist, who came down from there, and communed with mankind, and then went up again. so how should we think to escape His wrath if we reject Him, since those who lived under the covenant made at Sinai did not escape wrath? and the author of Hebrews has just made the case that Christ is so much greater than Moses


you don't have to imagine there was a whole other age of creation and judgement in order to comprehend this passage. but you do have to rip it completely out of its context in order to use it to support that idea.

If Heb.12:26 were the only verse in that, you would probably be very correct. But there's other verses, particularly verses 27-29 which are pointing to the level of shaking to come that will end this present world. The fact that the writer is signifying that kind of level of destruction, we know it has to be compared with a destruction upon the earth like the one coming by His consuming fire. That didn't happen upon Sinai with Moses. Even the Sodom and Gomorrah event is not enough to compare with it. It's closer to the destruction upon the earth with the flood of Noah's day.

 

[Dino246]

ever hear of Mokèlé-mbèmbé? Its a sauropod that supposedly lives in the Congo. I've also heard of Tetradactyl sightings in Wisconsin. There not called dinosaurs there called Cryptids now. Like Bigfoot, Mothman, Jersey Devil ect. So I'm thinking if there is some truth to young earth I think it would make sense for a few to exist still

Yes, I have heard of all of these. My point was to question DP on his assertion that fossils are evidence of the gap theory.

Why on earth would God want to make things look billions of years old? It makes God look like a bigger deceiver than Satan.

I don't see that the appearance of things necessarily indicates the intentions of the author. How something appears to us is largely the product of our preconceptions. The geologic formations around Mt. St. Helens are a good example: without the certainty that the events happened only 35 years ago, we might think the formations are ancient and formed slowly. To put it another way, it's not God's fault that we don't interpret accurately. That's why we should start with what is certain and hold lightly what is uncertain.

 

[Dino246]

The big bang?

... Photos show that the farther we look out into space (hence the further back in time, since light requires time to reach our telescopes), the more densely packed the galaxies are.

These are just a few of many proofs that the universe had a definite beginning. Science has proven that the universe did not always exist. It had a beginning, and it is older then 6000 years

Could you please provide a source or two for the comment in bold italics? It doesn't square with what I've read on the subject.

Also, I would like to question your assertion that "Science has proven... that it is older than 6000 years". Aside from the idea that science (in and of itself) proves anything (it doesn't; scientists make hypotheses and test them), it's a bit of a grandiose generalization. Given certain sets of assumptions, some scientists may have concluded that the universe is older than 6000 years. If you study those assumptions, you may be able to find shortcomings which undermine those conclusions. Remember also that sometimes those fundamental assumptions aren't recorded overtly. Don't make the mistake of believing the media summaries without checking out the back stories.

 

[prove-all]

Could you please provide a source or two for
the comment in bold italics? It doesn't square with what I've read on the subject.

Photos show that the farther we look out into space (hence the further back in time,
since light requires time to reach our telescopes), "the more densely packed the galaxies are".

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-technology/hubble.html
The Hubble Space Telescope can see objects even more distant than your eyes can. When it takes a picture of a galaxy 100 million light years away, we are seeing the galaxy as it looked 100 million years ago. At the time that light left that galaxy, dinosaurs still roamed Earth and humans would not appear for many millions of years!Because distant galaxies appear to us as they were millions or even billions of years ago, we can study how they change over time.
-
Why the Universe is All History
"Because light takes time to get here from there, the farther away 'there' is the further in the past light left there and so we see all objects at some time in the past," explains Floyd Stecker of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland.

 

[prove-all]

Job 9:8 tells us that “[God] alone spreadeth out the heavens.”
This is an ongoing process for which God claims sole responsibility.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My car is the color green, but so is the grass, yet that doesn't mean they have any other correlation. That's about as close as man's evolutionary theory is to the Gap idea, so likewise, I'm sorry you're not able to comprehend that. Obviously, this is a Biblical matter God has not given you to know.

HAHAHA!! You are saying the same thing he just did...

 

[Bladerunner]

now now

let's stay friends....

I meant I don't agree with young earth but neither am I an evolutionist

one size fits all does not look good on me

Hello: you said you do not agree with a young earth but you fail to justify, tell us how old it is and how are we measuring that age? You need to listening to the Bible and not mankind. From almost the beginning, he has been flawed. Even when we are in the millennium and satan has been chained in the bottomless pit, Man still sins.. It is built into him that curse long ago.

 

[Bladerunner]

why does not believing in a young earth automatically make you an evolutionist?

I don't agree with that at all

I don't believe it makes you a evolutionists but you have a problem of explaining how science is measuring the age of the earth and universe. It can be corrected quite easily whereas the 6 thousand years can not be. Yes people try and they always come back to faulty transcription of the Bible over the years. Yet, the KJV has very few differences from the original manuscripts and Greek translation. Do you really think God is going to let puny man to change his word. Ah, yes, all the new versions today?