The Heresy of Perfectionism

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 19, 2011

zone said:

PERFECT occurs 99 times in 94 verses in the KJV
There are 24 variants of the word PERFECT, 14 in the Old, 10 in the New (24 in all)

Strongs:
HEBREW (Old Testament)
1) H1584, gamar --------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
2) H1585, gĕmar (Aramaic) --- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
3) H3559, kuwn ----------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
4) H3632, kaliyl ----------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
5) H3634, kalal ------------------ Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
6) H4357, miklah ---------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
7) H7965, shalowm ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
8) H7999, shalam --------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
9) H8003, shalem --------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
10) H8503, takliyth ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
11)H8535, tam ------------------ Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
12) H8537, tom ----------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
13) H8549, tamiym ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
14) H8552, tamam -------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

GREEK (New Testament)
1/15) G195, akribeia ------------ Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
2/16) G197, akribesteron ------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
3/17) G199, akribōs ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
4/18) G739, artios --------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
5/19) G2005, epiteleō ----------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
6/20) G2675, katartizō ---------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
7/21) G3647, holoklēria --------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
8/22) G4137, plēroō ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
9/23) G5046, teleios ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
10/24) G5048, teleioō ----------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

PERFECT

OLD TESTAMENT (HEBREW)

PERFECT - Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect 8549 with the LORD thy God.

Strongs H8549, tamiym
1) complete, whole, entire, sound
a) complete, whole, entire
b) whole, sound, healthful
c) complete, entire (of time)
d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

PERFECT - Deu 25:15 [But] thou shalt have a perfect 8003 and just weight, a perfect 8003
and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the
LORD thy God giveth thee.

Strongs H8003, shalem
1) complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace
a) complete
1) full, perfect

2) finished
b) safe, unharmed
c) peace (of covenant of peace, mind)

1) perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)

PERFECT - 2Ch 4:21 And the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs, [made he of] gold,
[and] that perfect 4357 gold;

Strongs H4357, miklah
1) completeness, perfection

PERFECT Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the
God of heaven, perfect 1585 [peace], and at such a time.

Strongs H1585, gĕmar (Aramaic)
1) to complete
a) (P'al) perfect (pass participle)

PERFECT Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man
was perfect 8535 and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Strongs H8535, tam
1) perfect, complete
a) complete, perfect

1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
b) sound, wholesome

1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person
c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity

1) one who is morally and ethically pure

PERFECT - Job 22:3 [Is it] any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or [is it]
gain [to him], that thou makest thy ways perfect 8552?

Strongs H8552, tamam
1) to be complete, be finished, be at an end
a) (Qal)

1) to be finished, be completed
a) completely, wholly, entirely (as auxiliary with verb)

2) to be finished, come to an end, cease

3) to be complete (of number)

4) to be consumed, be exhausted, be spent

5) to be finished, be consumed, be destroyed

6) to be complete, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically)

7) to complete, finish

8) to be completely crossed over
b) (Niphal) to be consumed
c) (Hiphil)

1) to finish, complete, perfect

2) to finish, cease doing, leave off doing

3) to complete, sum up, make whole

4) to destroy (uncleanness)

5) to make sound

d) (Hithpael) to deal in integrity, act uprightly

PERFECT - Psa 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect 8549 way. O when wilt thou
come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect 8537 heart.

Strongs H8537, tom
1) integrity, completeness
a) completeness, fulness
b) innocence, simplicity
c) integrity

PERFECT - Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect 1584 [that which] concerneth me: thy mercy , O
LORD, [endureth] for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

Strongs H1584, gamar
1) to end, come to an end, complete, cease
a) (Qal)

1) to come to an end, be no more

2) to bring to an end, complete

2) (TWOT) to fail, perfect, perform

PERFECT - Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect 8503 hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Strongs H8503, takliyth
1) end, perfection, consummation, completion, completeness
a) end
b) completeness

PERFECT - Pro 4:18 But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and
more unto the perfect 3559 day.

Strongs H3559, kuwn
1) to be firm, be stable, be established
a) (Niphal)

1) to be set up, be established, be fixed
a) to be firmly established
b) to be established, be stable, be secure, be enduring
c) to be fixed, be securely determined

2) to be directed aright, be fixed aright, be steadfast (moral sense)

3) to prepare, be ready

4) to be prepared, be arranged, be settled

b) (Hiphil)

1) to establish, set up, accomplish, do, make firm

2) to fix, make ready, prepare, provide, provide for, furnish

3) to direct toward (moral sense)

4) to arrange, order

c) (Hophal)

1) to be established, be fastened

2) to be prepared, be ready

d) (Polel)

1) to set up, establish

2) to constitute, make

3) to fix

4) to direct

e) (Pulal) to be established, be prepared

f) (Hithpolel) to be established, be restored

PERFECT - Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect 7965 peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed
[on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.

Strongs H7965, shalowm
1) completeness, soundness, welfare, peace
a) completeness (in number)
b) safety, soundness (in body)
c) welfare, health, prosperity
d) peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment
e) peace, friendship

1) of human relationships

2) with God especially in covenant relationship
f) peace (from war)
g) peace (as adjective)

PERFECT - Isa 42:19 Who [is] blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger [that] I
sent? who [is] blind as [he that is] perfect 7999, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

Strongs H7999, shalam
1) to be in a covenant of peace, be at peace
a) (Qal)

1) to be at peace

2) peaceful one (participle)
b) (Pual) one in covenant of peace (participle)
c) (Hiphil)

1) to make peace with

2) to cause to be at peace
d) (Hophal) to live in peace

2) to be complete, be sound
a) (Qal)

1) to be complete, be finished, be ended

2) to be sound, be uninjured
b) (Piel)

1) to complete, finish

2) to make safe

3) to make whole or good, restore, make compensation

4) to make good, pay

5) to requite, recompense, reward
c) (Pual)

1) to be performed

2) to be repaid, be requited

d) (Hiphil)

1) to complete, perform

2) to make an end of

PERFECT - Eze 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it
[was] perfect 3632 through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord
GOD.

Strongs H3632, kaliyl
adj 1) entire, all, perfect

adv2) entirety

subst 3) whole, whole burnt offering, holocaust, entirety

PERFECT - Eze 27:11 The men of Arvad with thine army [were] upon thy walls round about,
and the Gammadims were in thy towers: they hanged their shields upon thy walls round
about; they have made thy beauty perfect 3634

Strongs H3634, kalal
1) to complete, perfect, make complete, make perfect
a) (Qal) to perfect

Lad · Jul 19, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

I think youll find that ALOT of what is attributed to Calvin, should be attributed to Theodore Beza

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 19, 2011

PERFECT

GREEK (New Testament)
1/15) G195, akribeia ------------ Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
2/16) G197, akribesteron ------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
3/17) G199, akribōs ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
4/18) G739, artios --------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
5/19) G2005, epiteleō ----------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
6/20) G2675, katartizō ---------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
7/21) G3647, holoklēria --------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
8/22) G4137, plēroō ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
9/23) G5046, teleios ------------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
10/24) G5048, teleioō ----------- Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

PERFECT

NEW TESTAMENT (GREEK)

PERFECT - Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect 5046, even as your Father which is in heaven
is perfect 5046.

Strongs G5046, teleios
1) brought to its end, finished

2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness

3) perfect

4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men

1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

SEE SYNONYMS AND EXPLANATION HERE:
Reference (Link): -->> Blue Letter Bible - Synonyms of the New Testament by Richard C. Trench

PERFECT - Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect 199 understanding of all
things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Strongs G199, akribōs
1) exactly, accurately, diligently

PERFECT - Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect
2675 shall be as his master.

Strongs G2675, katartizō
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair

1) to complete
b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

PERFECT - Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect 5048 in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou
hast loved me.

Strongs G5048, teleioō
1) to make perfect, complete
a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

2) to complete (perfect)
a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
b) to be found perfect

3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed

4) to accomplish
a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event

1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

PERFECT (soundness) - Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this
man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this
perfect soundness 3647 in the presence of you all.

Strongs G3647, holoklēria
1) of an unimpaired condition of the body, in which all its members are healthy and fit for
use
a) good health

PERFECT (manner) - Act 22:3 I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city]
in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the
perfect manner 195 of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all
are this day.

Strongs G195, akribeia
1) exactness, exactest care: in accordance with the strictness of the Mosaic law

PERFECT - Act 24:22 And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect 197
knowledge of [that] way, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall
come down, I will know the uttermost of your matter.

Strongs G197, akribesteron
1) more exactly, more perfectly

PERFECT - Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect
2005 by the flesh?

Strongs G2005, epiteleō
1) to bring to an end, accomplish, perfect, execute, complete
a) to take upon one's self
b) to make an end for one's self

1) to leave off

2) to appoint to, impose upon

PERFECT - 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect 739, throughly furnished unto all
good works.

Strongs G739, artios
1) fitted

2) complete, perfect
a) having reference apparently to "special aptitude for given uses"

PERFECT - Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to
die: for I have not found thy works perfect 4137 before God.

Strongs G4137, plēroō
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

1) I abound, I am liberally supplied

2) to render full, i.e. to complete
a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b) to consummate: a number

1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute

2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be,
and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 19, 2011

zone said:

Sproul can't accept 'perfection' or it's definition. Sproul is an expert on Systematic
Theology and leaves the exegesis to others (in a broad and general way). His essay
would have been better, clearer, more complete, had he laid out the definition(s) of
'PERFECTION' and had referenced Philippians chapter 3 - he didn't because in his role, he
can't, without admitting that his very office or station being similar to Saul's as a Pharisee
would prevent him from so doing. Still, I think the essay is a good one, but this thread has
done a better job at clarifying what PERFECTION is, vis a vis say, NARCISSISM.

VIDEO:
RC Sproul interviews DA Carson on biblical exegesis - 25 minutes

Reference (Link): -->> ‪RC Sproul interviews DA Carson on biblical exegesis‬&rlm; - YouTube

AnandaHya · Jul 19, 2011

Digital_Angel_316 said:

there you go in a nutshell, Jesus is tell people to GROW UP and be mature adults, wanting nothing and able to do the task God has given you in this life for Paul tells us that Christ has given us everything we need.

Philippians 1

3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; 7 just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace. 8 For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, 10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

lol you must mean this verse...

Philipians 3
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Cobus · Jul 19, 2011

I do not believe ANY man! I believe Jesus. And Jesus asks the Father in John 17:23... Father make them perfect IN ONE!!! I believe that God will make me perfect in ONE with Jesus. And He will do it as Jesus asked.... RIGHT HERE WHILE I AM ALIVE!!!! And the rest of the WORK Father has to do is to PRESERVE ME PERFECT UNTIL THE DAY JESUS COMES! You are not made perfect when Jesus comes, You will be already LIKE HIM when He comes! 1 John 3. You were already made LIKE HIM here on earth! The moment God baptized you WITH JESEUS you becasme ONE WITH HIM! Look God did not appoint Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pasters and teachers to do work in heaven, they are to DO THE WORK HERE!!! And they need to perfect the Saints! They did not say you must be perfect! They did not make themselves perfect! God said... BE PERFECT! Why? Becasue it is His will that ALL HIS PEOPLE ARE EXACTLY LIKE JESUS. It is God's will, and His will He will DO! How can an evangelist contribute to a saints perfection if he is not perfect himself? God does not appoint hypocrates! He appoints people HE GIVE authority too! The same GLORY He gave Jesus. To say that an apostle is not perfect is to say that God appoints a blind man to lead a blind man! NO!!! God leads sinners to REPENT, then they become saints, then God baptize them with the Holy Spirit, and then they are perfect! Every sinner that repent DIES....And when the Holy Spirit of God now quikens the SOUL IN THE FLESH, Jesus is the SOUL in that person. The Spirit is Jesus, and that SOUL became LIKE JESUS... ONE WITH JESUS!
Look! When God said to His disciples ... Go and make desciples, teach them what I taught you, and baptize them in THE NAME of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit! THE NAME... ONE NAME!!! Now let me ask the clever Bible students here... What is THE NAME of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.... ONE NAME. Answer this in ANY laguage you want, and answer it with Scripture... There is one verse in the Word of God that tells us what that NAME is. Qoute that verse.... In what NAME should the Apostles baptize disciples?

Lad · Jul 19, 2011

Cobus said:

I do not believe ANY man! I believe Jesus. And Jesus asks the Father in John 17:23... Father make them perfect IN ONE!!! I believe that God will make me perfect in ONE with Jesus. And He will do it as Jesus asked.... RIGHT HERE WHILE I AM ALIVE!!!! And the rest of the WORK Father has to do is to PRESERVE ME PERFECT UNTIL THE DAY JESUS COMES! You are not made perfect when Jesus comes, You will be already LIKE HIM when He comes! 1 John 3. You were already made LIKE HIM here on earth! The moment God baptized you WITH JESEUS you becasme ONE WITH HIM! Look God did not appoint Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pasters and teachers to do work in heaven, they are to DO THE WORK HERE!!! And they need to perfect the Saints! They did not say you must be perfect! They did not make themselves perfect! God said... BE PERFECT! Why? Becasue it is His will that ALL HIS PEOPLE ARE EXACTLY LIKE JESUS. It is God's will, and His will He will DO! How can an evangelist contribute to a saints perfection if he is not perfect himself? God does not appoint hypocrates! He appoints people HE GIVE authority too! The same GLORY He gave Jesus. To say that an apostle is not perfect is to say that God appoints a blind man to lead a blind man! NO!!! God leads sinners to REPENT, then they become saints, then God baptize them with the Holy Spirit, and then they are perfect! Every sinner that repent DIES....And when the Holy Spirit of God now quikens the SOUL IN THE FLESH, Jesus is the SOUL in that person. The Spirit is Jesus, and that SOUL became LIKE JESUS... ONE WITH JESUS!
Look! When God said to His disciples ... Go and make desciples, teach them what I taught you, and baptize them in THE NAME of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit! THE NAME... ONE NAME!!! Now let me ask the clever Bible students here... What is THE NAME of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.... ONE NAME. Answer this in ANY laguage you want, and answer it with Scripture... There is one verse in the Word of God that tells us what that NAME is. Qoute that verse.... In what NAME should the Apostles baptize disciples?

Be very careful to not take verses out of context brother. However I admire your hearts desire.

rafaelsald · Jul 19, 2011

Cobus said:

I do not believe ANY man! I believe Jesus. And Jesus asks the Father in John 17:23... Father make them perfect IN ONE!!! I believe that God will make me perfect in ONE with Jesus. And He will do it as Jesus asked.... RIGHT HERE WHILE I AM ALIVE!!!! And the rest of the WORK Father has to do is to PRESERVE ME PERFECT UNTIL THE DAY JESUS COMES! You are not made perfect when Jesus comes, You will be already LIKE HIM when He comes! 1 John 3. You were already made LIKE HIM here on earth! The moment God baptized you WITH JESEUS you becasme ONE WITH HIM! Look God did not appoint Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pasters and teachers to do work in heaven, they are to DO THE WORK HERE!!! And they need to perfect the Saints! They did not say you must be perfect! They did not make themselves perfect! God said... BE PERFECT! Why? Becasue it is His will that ALL HIS PEOPLE ARE EXACTLY LIKE JESUS. It is God's will, and His will He will DO! How can an evangelist contribute to a saints perfection if he is not perfect himself? God does not appoint hypocrates! He appoints people HE GIVE authority too! The same GLORY He gave Jesus. To say that an apostle is not perfect is to say that God appoints a blind man to lead a blind man! NO!!! God leads sinners to REPENT, then they become saints, then God baptize them with the Holy Spirit, and then they are perfect! Every sinner that repent DIES....And when the Holy Spirit of God now quikens the SOUL IN THE FLESH, Jesus is the SOUL in that person. The Spirit is Jesus, and that SOUL became LIKE JESUS... ONE WITH JESUS!
Look! When God said to His disciples ... Go and make desciples, teach them what I taught you, and baptize them in THE NAME of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit! THE NAME... ONE NAME!!! Now let me ask the clever Bible students here... What is THE NAME of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.... ONE NAME. Answer this in ANY laguage you want, and answer it with Scripture... There is one verse in the Word of God that tells us what that NAME is. Qoute that verse.... In what NAME should the Apostles baptize disciples?

We are stuck in this earthly body. We will only be perfect when we receive the glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Romans 8:23

Cobus · Jul 19, 2011

Rafaelsald, Let me ask you this... Where is Jesus right now? If He is not in you, then you are still here and if He is in you, what gift did HE give you? Look what the Word preaches....Awake, Rafaelsald, Awake to righteousness, and SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak to your shame... This is scripture you quoted Rafaelsald! Please show me the verse that says we remain in this flesh! Did Jesus remain in the flesh? How come Jesus came into the FLESH of Saul and made him the holy Paul! FILLED WITH JESUS! Saul was the sinner, Paul was the Holy Preacher, Filled with Holy Spirit! Paul went to heaven and came back, to third heaven. To paradise! Ezekiel 8...Ezekiel was taken to Jerusalem while he was in his house with the elders of Judah whom sat there in the house with him. Read it. Now how can a man be to plaes at the same time? See there is still much you have to learn. We are not bound to this body! God can do what He wants. If He wants to take you to Himself right now, like He did in this two men then He can and will if He wants too. Now the question is WHERE does God want me to be.... Well that depends what you think where IS JESUS! Becasue God says it straight out John 17.... Father as thou hast given HIM the power over ALL FLESH, that HE should give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN HIM!... Now if God gives me to Jesus where does Jesus take me? Did He not say NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME....!!! Yes He did, so Father give me to Jesus so that i can FOLLOW Him! And Jesus says clearly.. Take up your cross and follow me.. why? ... Jesus says.. those that want to save their lives lives shall lose it, but those that lose it for His Name sake shall FIND it! That is the LIFE WITHOUT SIN! Becasue we lose the life of sin we find the life without sin. So Jesus says bring your cross and NAIL your sin to the cross, that means nail your sinful life on the cross. STOP SINNING! Plain and simple! Now you say we cannot do it, well you do not differ with me, I am not the one that said ... Go and sin no more, it was Jesus! And look NOBODY not even the adultress argued with Him, but you want to! You say to Jesus... Hey Jesus, we are TRAPPED in this sinful body... And Jesus says... COME TO ME I WILL GIVE YOU PEACE, AND MAKE YOU FREE. And Jesus even says this... If I make you free you are FREE INDEED!
Now let me SHOW you with HIS Word how He accomplish this.... And this is all from God's OWN MOUTH!!! HIS WORD!!!! Jesus says this in John 17:24.... Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
Now where is Jesus and where am I. If you say Jesus is here, and I am with Him, then ok, we are still IN ONE PLACE. And if you say Jesus is in heaven then it is also ok, then we are still in ONE PLACE. But can we be in heaven and here on earth at the SAME TIME? Can i be here but still IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS, beholding HIS GLORY? YES!!! that is it... Jesus said Behold the KINGDOM HAS COME NEAR.... But right after Jesus spoke to Mary He said... Woman touch me not for i have NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER... Then he returns a while later and said to Thomas... Put your hand in my side ... Jesus also said to Mary Go and tell the brethren i ascend to my Father AND THEIRS to my GOD AND THEIRS... And then Jesus says NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT TRHOUGH ME... That means I can go to FATHER RIGHT NOW WHILE I AM HERE! Why becasue Jesus said.... John 14:12... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
That means Jesus went to Father and did He not also say... If i love Him i will obey Him and the Father would love me and THEY will make their abode with me. See if I go to heaven they come here, and i am here and heaven is here. i am in heaven already and Jesus is here in me already and i am IN him already, and the flesh is just a vessel containing all these things! The flesh profits nothing, and I ganied the GOD OF HEAVEN IN SPIRIT! But do not be fooled, becasue I LOST my sinful life, this fleah is DEAD to sin, and this flesh CANNOT SIN BECASUE THE SEED of GOD in now IN THIS FLESH! Jesus and God's KINGDOM is now in this flesh... As it was in Jesus, and I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD ANY MORE. Sin is only of this world, and becasue i am not of this world i am no longer in a sinful body but a NEW created body... Behold old things has passed..DIED!!! and Everything is now NEW... HOLY AND PERFECT!... Was Jesus still perfect even though he was full of holes? YES!!!! When He appeared to the disciples he still had the holes in Him, but now He walked thorugh walls? And did He not say... You will recieve POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.... How big is that power? can it be the power over the flesh? YES!!!! So my friend you can stay in your flesh, me, No! I choose to leave this flesh FOR JESUS! I want to be where HE IS, and if HE is not in this flesh, then I do not want to be in this flesh... I hope you see the FREEDOM Jesus offers!... Bye May you be blessed with Truth.

Cobus · Jul 19, 2011

RC Sproul does not have a clue what he is saying, except if he curse himself... becasue of a lack of GODLY KNOWLEDGE.... God's word is the most understanding book I have EVER read, the most EASY and the most COMMON sence i have EVER heard. Jesus said, the people are lost and fall becasue of a lack of KNOWLEDGE... And that knowledge is to ACCEPT the word, to LIKE what you read and let Jesus write it on your heart, and the Word will become ALIVE IN YOU. Knowledge is ALLOWING Jesus to teach you, and HE DOES! The word of God is only difficult to the ones that wants to EDIT it! If you accept it, it just FALLS OPEN! When Jesus reveals the Word to you, it is the most NATURAL LOVE you can experience... And that Love HE PERFECTS IN ALL WHO ACCEPTS!!! Every scripture Jesus teaches you, and you accept, then you LOVE MORE! Our problem is not a lack of intelligence, it is too much intelligence, formed by intelligent peoples teachings.. Jesus said.... Luke 10:21... In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
See it is hid from the intelligent.... Be less wise and more baby-like... It is GOOD in his sight...

FireOnTheAltar · Jul 19, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Now here's the funny part...

Many accuse John Wesley of teaching "sinless perfection" which is far from the truth. It was Wesley's contemporary John Fletcher (and later Adam Clarke, to an extent) who really pushed being sinless. John Wesley knew full well how easily it is for a believer to fall into sin. If you read Wesley's works, over time his views on "Christian Perfection" progress from overcoming sin to walking in maturity. In fact, it was through Wesley's observations concerning sin patterns in new converts from which the concept of "Carnal Christianity" evolved.

Later, Charles Finney would take up the mantle and while Finney's approach may have been a little unorthodox, Finney too reached the conclusion that man can do nothing in and of his own strength to save himself. That we are totally reliant on Christ and the cross for salvation and it is through this means that we are brought in proper relationship with God Himself, through the third person of the trinity, the indwelling Holy Spirit. Finney's entire approach to Christianity is that the Cross not only washed away our past sins but also gave us access to the One who can keep us on the straight and narrow, the Holy Spirit, that is if we choose to follow His lead. Finney himself never once taught that "works" can save anyone however, Finney did teach that believers need to rid themselves of any and all unnecessary distractions and spend much time in prayer and fellowship with the Lord (ie, consecration / abiding) in order to hear from the Lord clearly. Unfortunately, this didn't sit well the "religious" of the day who continue to bash Finney to this very day.

jash · Jul 19, 2011

we human beings living on the earth are tempted by the world.

the main point is in every human being; the flesh came from the earth itself as everones flesh is decmposed in the soil. but the soul doesnt decompose inthe soil as it is not the component of the earth.

so the thing is the component of the world wants to act according to the world so jesus is in flesh at that time and have been tempted by the world.
but we know soul is not the component of the earth and soul is given the right to act according to its will. there the point lies. it should obey Gods will and should control the flesh and the worldly temptations. so did Jesus. He never obeyed to the flesh but to the His Father.
it is possible for him only through prevailing prayers.

Red33 · Jul 19, 2011

Here's a different approach. How many of you are perfect in your experience as a believer have not sinned or have no sin in your life? Or let me say it another way as our Lord did in the temple. Any of you that is without sin let him cast the first stone upon those that have sinned or are living in sin. All those that lifted up that stone put it back down and left the temple and the only one who was perfect in fulfilling the righteousness of the law and was perfect in justice said, 'Where are your accusers... neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.' No one in that temple was perfect and the one that was perfect ministered grace (no condemnation) to the adulterous woman, so that she could go with the strength of that grace and sin no more. Grace convicted those that wanted to condemn the guilty woman and gave grace to the guilty to set her free to sin no more. They were condemned and convicted but she was set free. Interesting principle.

Consumed · Jul 19, 2011

Cobus said:

Hi cobus
Let me put it in the context I meant it, Being hidden in Him I am perfect by faith and in spirit, yet there's a war in my flesh against the spirit but staying in Him i am bringing my flesh into submission, sanctification at work within me. Ultimate perfection comes when i get an incoruptible body to go with His spirit His given me, yohoo, but til that day everyday is a choice to follow Him, grace to enjoy or endure the day ahead in His strength. Grace abounds in Him thru Him us hidden in Him, our rock and refuge, strong tower. Acknowledge we are weak without Him He makes us strong, doesn't share His glory for it though, His alone and rightfully so

I love you cobus, your passion for Christ no one can ever deny

Laodicea · Jul 19, 2011

There is 3 different types of perfection:-
1) Perfect in Surrender (justification)
2) Perfect in character (sanctification) work of a lifetime
3) Perfect in nature (glorification) when Jesus returns

What we need to be is perfect in surrender

Consumed · Jul 19, 2011

Laodicea said:

Amen
starts with 1/ - faith
empowers to 2/ - grace
and is fulfilled with 3/ - glory

eternally-gratefull · Jul 19, 2011

Consumed said:

I think people mess up our "position" in Christ. with our momentary "condition" here on Earth.

Our "position" is perfect. God does not see our sin. As scripture says he has put it as far as the east is from the west.

Our condition is momentary. We may either be setting our mind on the things of the spirit (perfect) or the flesh (imperfect) Our goal is to match our condition with our position in Christ. We may get close here on earth. but we will never make it. That is why we should keep going forward. To think we made it is dangerous.

As scripture says. We are sanctified "set apart " by the blood of Christ, this is our position

we are also being sanctified (setting ourselves apart through maturity) which is our condition.

we will one day be glorified through sanctification (our eternal state of perfection) where our position will = our condition for all eternity. Which of course happens at the resurrection of our souls into new perfect bodies.

FireOnTheAltar · Jul 19, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

If God does not see our sin then why does sin grieve the Holy Spirit per Eph 4:29-31?

I think it's necessary to point out that as believers we must never embrace an unrepentant attitude toward sin (noun, plural). God is more than willing to forgive when we are more than willing repent thus believers are to have a humble heart and contrite spirit, never thinking more of ourselves more highly than we should.

Far too often I meet people who feel that just because the Cross of Christ forgives all past, present & future sin that salvation has given them some sort of license to sin which is not the case at all. Which I'm sure EG agrees with.

zone · Jul 19, 2011

FireOnTheAltar said:

this is absolutely true.
anyone who is being sanctified is continually and painfully aware of their sin (however increasingly rare they become - the magnitutde of the gravity of them increases...so the sensitivity. if anything, the longer we live the greater the conflict when we DO sin. isn't that how it works?).

i don't see how anything other than a helpful and compassionate heart to people struggling with their sin (at the very least acknowleding it) is christian - if we're not struggling to put aside our sin we're not saved. if we say we have no sin we lie, and the truth is not in us. what good does that person do an authentic christian?

take another look at what EG said about our actual position: scripture says we're seated with Christ already. that means we are forgiven.

jandian · Jul 19, 2011

I don't get the feeling that this thread was started to tell us we should not aspire to be perfect....that would be in direct contravention to the word of God.....

I think the real objective was
1. to warn us not to become prideful about how perfectly we keep the word;
2. its a reminder that it is not by might or by power, but by His Spirit;
3. a reminder that works cannot save us, and
4. that our righteousness is as filthy rags. And that regardless to how well we keep the the laws....Except for the grace of Christ in our lives our "so-called perfection" is nothing

At least thats the way I see it..

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