The Heresy of Perfectionism

[eternally-gratefull]

If God does not see our sin then why does sin grieve the Holy Spirit per Eph 4:29-31?

Yes. I think this adds to the confusion some. When we sin, The HS is trying to get us to follow him, We chose instead to follow our flesh. Also. Scripture states, as a father, it is the HS's job to chasten us. So yes he is grieved. The SOn also has to hear about it as we have the accuser in his presence accusing us of sin. so he not only saw it when he died for it, he has to be reminded all the time of why he died. and how sinfull we are. Yet when I said this. I spoke of the father. He is the final judge. When he lookds at us, he seed his son (who is our mediator also) and he does not see our sin. It is as if we did not commit it. This is called justification. Our position in Christ is perfect. Not because of our righteousness. But because of Christ's whishc was given to us.

I think it's necessary to point out that as believers we must never embrace an unrepentant attitude toward sin (noun, plural). God is more than willing to forgive when we are more than willing repent thus believers are to have a humble heart and contrite spirit, never thinking more of ourselves more highly than we should.

Far too often I meet people who feel that just because the Cross of Christ forgives all past, present & future sin that salvation has given them some sort of license to sin which is not the case at all. Which I'm sure EG agrees with.

Yes I agree. A licentious Gospel will never save anyone.

 

[kentappel]

If we trust and believe in Jesus Christ and what He did in our place, sinner's who can never ever save ourselves, then we put on His righteousness in that God sees our sin no more but if we think that we will no longer sin ever again here on earth, then we are kidding ourselves. Paul recognizes in Romans 7 and Romans 8 that we at times do things we don't want to do that, sin, and there are times when we don't do what we want to do, behave righteously, but because of Jesus' blood shed on the cross there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Yes Paul in Romans 8 does talk about sowing to the spirit verses sowing to the flesh but I believe it is impossible to sow to the spirit 100 percent of the time but I also believe as believers we can do better than we could ever do before as non believers but, as I said, perfection while in these bodies is not going to happen.

It is clear in 1 John 1 that we as believers have the truth in us but there is still sin in us so no we can't ever live sinless lives this side of heaven but if we say we have no sin, then the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Red33]

If God does not see our sin then why does sin grieve the Holy Spirit per Eph 4:29-31?

I think it's necessary to point out that as believers we must never embrace an unrepentant attitude toward sin (noun, plural). God is more than willing to forgive when we are more than willing repent thus believers are to have a humble heart and contrite spirit, never thinking more of ourselves more highly than we should.

Far too often I meet people who feel that just because the Cross of Christ forgives all past, present & future sin that salvation has given them some sort of license to sin which is not the case at all. Which I'm sure EG agrees with.

The Holy Spirit is grieved because sin has temporarily broken our fellowship with God and it has to be restored. We are convicted of our sin and we agree with God, then we confess that specific sin to God and He is faithful and just to forgive us and He restores us back to fellowship with Him through mercy and grace and we never stopped being justified one single moment during the entire process that could have taken less than (10 seconds). Furthermore we are not put on probation and we instantly begin to walk by faith, never looking back or remembering our sin. If someone tries to throw that sin back in our face we can say with all the confidence of the finished work, WHAT SIN? THAT WAS BURIED AND I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IT. God doesn't remember it, so why should I.

 

[Zilla64007]

and red33, what happens when we confess, repent, but then go back to that sin?

what happens if we dont stop sinning?

what happened to Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander?

 

[Cobus]

Ok I will tell you this much... Can God dissappoint man? Can any man be dissappointed with God's salvation? I will be VERY dissappointed if I will sin the rest of my life! I will then ALWAYS hate my ways! I HATE SIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beasue there is NO LOVE IN SIN!!!! ALL Sin is hateful and hurting acts and thoughts! If God cannot change me to be a new man THAT CANNOT SIN, Then God will disappoint me! I HATE SIN! AND I HATE SIN IN ME THE MOST!!!!! Then i also hate it when I see it in other people! If God does not and cannot offer me a COMPLETE REMOVAL FROM SIN IN ME, Then God is not worthy to offer any salvation. So! Do ANY of you think I am disappointed with what Jesus offers? NO!!!! Becasue Jesus not only wash away ALL sin from me, HE DESTROYS THE HOLD SATAN HAD ON ME!!!! I think the LIE that so many people believe that we will ALWAYS sin as long as we are in this body, is being adressed by MANY People CLOSE to Spiritual Baptism, and once they ARE Baptized they ALSO are hidden from the "Always sinners"
Whom of you SAW GOD? If you did not see God yet, you do not know Him! If you do not know Him you have no Truth! Man!!!! I am so tired to try to tell you people... Jesus' salvation is a COMPLETE change..... In Christ we are ALL NEW... Even your "sinful nature" IS GONE!!!!!
Eternal grateful, you can study the Word in all the languages, but if Jesus REVEALS 1 John 3:9 to you He will show you that Jesus LOOKS exactly like YOU< and YOU LOOK EXACTLY LIKE GOD>>>>> The moment HE GLORIFIES YOU!!!! AND THAT GLORIFICATION IS: Baptism of Holy Spirit>>>. FILLING of Holy Spirit.>>>> PLANTING HIS SEED IN YOU> REBIRTH>>> Completion of Sanctification>>> Edurance till the END>>>> Allowed into the KINGDOM>>>> Quickening of the flesh>>>> Perfection>>>> Holy MAN>>>> Gift of the promise>>>> Resurrected into EVERLASTING LIFE>>>> SEE GOD>>>. Through JESUS>>>> Through the NARROW GATE>>>> Through the SHEEPFOLD GATE>>>>> Spiritual ISRAEL>>>> NEW CREATURE, OLD IS DEAD AND GONE>>>> MADE ONE WITH GOD>>>> CALLED AND CHOSEN>>>> FOUND AND SAVED>>>> HID IN GOD>>> YOU ARE ONE WITH GOD AND IN GOD AND GOD IS ONE WITH YOU AND IN YOU!!!!! DRIVEN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT>>> Look the Holy Spirit DRIVES YOU and the Holy SPirit does NEVER drive on sinful WAYS, He drives on only ONE WAY>>> JESUS IS THE WAY!
See There is NO DISSAPOINTMENT IN THAT! There is NO DISSAPOINTMENT IN PERFECTION. NOBODY GOD SAVED>>>>> IS DISAPPOINTED!
Sin brings TERRIBLE dissapointment! Sin brings heartache to God, And ALL PERFECT PEOPLE PLEASE GOD! ALL THE TIME!!!!!! Becasue Jesus NEVER SINNED AND HE SAID >>>>The things i do EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVES IN ME SHALL DO THE SAME.... JESUS PLEASED GOD ALL THE WAY AND SO DOES ALL GOD'S CHILDREN. That is it for me....I am done with this thread, This is holding me back, this does not please God. Jesus being called a heresy... Jesus SAID : BE PERFECT EVEN AS THOU FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT! God SAID....Little CHILDREN LET NO MAN DECIEVE YOU: HE THAT DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. ALL GOD'S CHILDREN IS PERFECT AS GOD. THEY DO NOT LOOK PERFECT, THEY ARE PERFECT! jESUS DID NOT SAY... LOOK PERFECT, HE SAID BE PERFECT. AND THAT GOD LOOKS THROUGH THE BLOOD, WHERE IS THAT VERSE? THERE IS NO SUCH VERSE SO STOP LIEING! TO MANY "LOOK HOLY" PEOPLE LIE TOO OFTEN. THE WORD IS THE TRUTH...JOHN 17:17, AND EVERYTHING ELSE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY, IS A LIE!!! HE THAT COMMITTETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL, I AM OF THE DEVIL, MAY JESUS SAVE ME!!!! aND I KNOW HE WILL!!! AND THEN I WILL BE PERFECT, AND TAKEN AWAY TO NEVER TALK TO YOU AGAIN ABOUT THIS MATTER. MAY GOD HAVE HIS WAY IN ME, AND ONLY HIS WILL BE DONE IN THROUGH AND OVER ME. AMEN!!!!

 

[Lad]

Ok I will tell you this much... Can God dissappoint man? Can any man be dissappointed with God's salvation? I will be VERY dissappointed if I will sin the rest of my life! I will then ALWAYS hate my ways! I HATE SIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beasue there is NO LOVE IN SIN!!!! ALL Sin is hateful and hurting acts and thoughts! If God cannot change me to be a new man THAT CANNOT SIN, Then God will disappoint me! I HATE SIN! AND I HATE SIN IN ME THE MOST!!!!! Then i also hate it when I see it in other people! If God does not and cannot offer me a COMPLETE REMOVAL FROM SIN IN ME, Then God is not worthy to offer any salvation. So! Do ANY of you think I am disappointed with what Jesus offers? NO!!!! Becasue Jesus not only wash away ALL sin from me, HE DESTROYS THE HOLD SATAN HAD ON ME!!!! I think the LIE that so many people believe that we will ALWAYS sin as long as we are in this body, is being adressed by MANY People CLOSE to Spiritual Baptism, and once they ARE Baptized they ALSO are hidden from the "Always sinners"
Whom of you SAW GOD? If you did not see God yet, you do not know Him! If you do not know Him you have no Truth! Man!!!! I am so tired to try to tell you people... Jesus' salvation is a COMPLETE change..... In Christ we are ALL NEW... Even your "sinful nature" IS GONE!!!!!
Eternal grateful, you can study the Word in all the languages, but if Jesus REVEALS 1 John 3:9 to you He will show you that Jesus LOOKS exactly like YOU< and YOU LOOK EXACTLY LIKE GOD>>>>> The moment HE GLORIFIES YOU!!!! AND THAT GLORIFICATION IS: Baptism of Holy Spirit>>>. FILLING of Holy Spirit.>>>> PLANTING HIS SEED IN YOU> REBIRTH>>> Completion of Sanctification>>> Edurance till the END>>>> Allowed into the KINGDOM>>>> Quickening of the flesh>>>> Perfection>>>> Holy MAN>>>> Gift of the promise>>>> Resurrected into EVERLASTING LIFE>>>> SEE GOD>>>. Through JESUS>>>> Through the NARROW GATE>>>> Through the SHEEPFOLD GATE>>>>> Spiritual ISRAEL>>>> NEW CREATURE, OLD IS DEAD AND GONE>>>> MADE ONE WITH GOD>>>> CALLED AND CHOSEN>>>> FOUND AND SAVED>>>> HID IN GOD>>> YOU ARE ONE WITH GOD AND IN GOD AND GOD IS ONE WITH YOU AND IN YOU!!!!! DRIVEN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT>>> Look the Holy Spirit DRIVES YOU and the Holy SPirit does NEVER drive on sinful WAYS, He drives on only ONE WAY>>> JESUS IS THE WAY!
See There is NO DISSAPOINTMENT IN THAT! There is NO DISSAPOINTMENT IN PERFECTION. NOBODY GOD SAVED>>>>> IS DISAPPOINTED!
Sin brings TERRIBLE dissapointment! Sin brings heartache to God, And ALL PERFECT PEOPLE PLEASE GOD! ALL THE TIME!!!!!! Becasue Jesus NEVER SINNED AND HE SAID >>>>The things i do EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVES IN ME SHALL DO THE SAME.... JESUS PLEASED GOD ALL THE WAY AND SO DOES ALL GOD'S CHILDREN. That is it for me....I am done with this thread, This is holding me back, this does not please God. Jesus being called a heresy... Jesus SAID : BE PERFECT EVEN AS THOU FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT! God SAID....Little CHILDREN LET NO MAN DECIEVE YOU: HE THAT DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. ALL GOD'S CHILDREN IS PERFECT AS GOD. THEY DO NOT LOOK PERFECT, THEY ARE PERFECT! jESUS DID NOT SAY... LOOK PERFECT, HE SAID BE PERFECT. AND THAT GOD LOOKS THROUGH THE BLOOD, WHERE IS THAT VERSE? THERE IS NO SUCH VERSE SO STOP LIEING! TO MANY "LOOK HOLY" PEOPLE LIE TOO OFTEN. THE WORD IS THE TRUTH...JOHN 17:17, AND EVERYTHING ELSE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY, IS A LIE!!! HE THAT COMMITTETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL, I AM OF THE DEVIL, MAY JESUS SAVE ME!!!! aND I KNOW HE WILL!!! AND THEN I WILL BE PERFECT, AND TAKEN AWAY TO NEVER TALK TO YOU AGAIN ABOUT THIS MATTER. MAY GOD HAVE HIS WAY IN ME, AND ONLY HIS WILL BE DONE IN THROUGH AND OVER ME. AMEN!!!!

Ive never seen God and Im nowhere near perfect, i still get angry, i still lust, i still have sinful thoughts, i still judge others and the list goes on, so I guess im going to hell. *sigh* well thats disappointing I guess Ill just go back to weed and porn now, excuse me while i travel my road to eternal damnation.

 

[unclefester]

and red33, what happens when we confess, repent, but then go back to that sin?

what happens if we dont stop sinning?

what happened to Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander?

I think that the certainty of God truly knowing our hearts sometimes gets lost in our understanding of God's grace . A Christian is always humbled by the contrast between what he is and what he desires to be.

Matthew 18:21-22
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

 

[zone]

If God does not and cannot offer me a COMPLETE REMOVAL FROM SIN IN ME, Then God is not worthy to offer any salvation.!

Cobus.
i do not know how you landed in this fanaticism, God help anyone who might live with you at this time.
this is not from God, you are out of line.

man has the offer of FORGIVENESS OF SINS - NOT PERFECTION.

how dare you cheapen the Son of God coming and giving Himself for our sins by demanding you BECOME DEITY.

stop it. put down your STUFF and go out for a walk and grab hold of your sanity....this is YOUR responsibility to do. you're acting like a CULT leader/victim. KNOCK IT OFF.

zone.

 

[zone]

i really hope the wesleyans and the false prophets and charismatics can see the fruit of this evil teaching of perfectionism. just look at the wreckage.
step up to the plate and tell the truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Cobus.
i do not know how you landed in this fanaticism, God help anyone who might live with you at this time.
this is not from God, you are out of line.

man has the offer of FORGIVENESS OF SINS - NOT PERFECTION.

how dare you cheapen the Son of God coming and giving Himself for our sins by demanding you BECOME DEITY.

stop it. put down your STUFF and go out for a walk and grab hold of your sanity....this is YOUR responsibility to do. you're acting like a CULT leader/victim. KNOCK IT OFF.

zone.

yeah I agree. God did not promise to remove our old nature. he left it in tact. he just gave us power over it. It does not mean we will never go back to it. Imagine if God made us perfect. what need would we have of him anymore? Who needs God when I can do good on my own. and things go great around me?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i really hope the wesleyans and the false prophets and charismatics can see the fruit of this evil teaching of perfectionism. just look at the wreckage.
step up to the plate and tell the truth.

Its all pride. Want of the greatest gift. Want of being perfect. Want want want. They want to look at people and say look at me, You should be like me. Then God will love you. Instead of having people look at them when they have humility. and see Gods love working through them. because, Like david, paul and many of the apostles and prophets. They still sin, Yet God uses them in such a powerfull way!

 

[zone]

yeah I agree. God did not promise to remove our old nature. he left it in tact. he just gave us power over it. It does not mean we will never go back to it. Imagine if God made us perfect. what need would we have of him anymore? Who needs God when I can do good on my own. and things go great around me?

nobody cares about really looking at the people in scripture. the people all around them. the saudi or the honduran or the nordic: were/are ANY of the biblical characters or people around us perfect?

get serious. this is just disgusting what it does.

no, we DON'T CARE - we some want mythical SECOND BAPTISM that makes us God.
and doesn't it go there EVERY SINGLE TIME?

 

[zone]

Its all pride. Want of the greatest gift. Want of being perfect. Want want want. They want to look at people and say look at me, You should be like me. Then God will love you. Instead of having people look at them when they have humility. and see Gods love working through them. because, Like david, paul and many of the apostles and prophets. They still sin, Yet God uses them in such a powerfull way!

the whole point is that the very God we have offended by our sin has made a way to put that sin away - HIS WAY...doesn't this OBSESSION with sin fan it into life? how many times in how many ways do we have see in the scriptures and by personal experience this is HARD TO DO....WE put aside our sinful ways by FACING them and taking it to the Throne!

stop sitting around waiting for God to burn out your sin nature and make you perfect! what rubbish.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

nobody cares about really looking at the people in scripture. the people all around them. the saudi or the honduran or the nordic: were/are ANY of the biblical characters or people around us perfect?

get serious. this is just disgusting what it does.

no, we DON'T CARE - we some want mythical SECOND BAPTISM that makes us God.
and doesn't it go there EVERY SINGLE TIME?

All we have to do is look at history. It is pride that has kept man from seeing the love of God. Pride kept satan from falling, and in his pride he fell. He uses that same "pride" against mankind. and we continue to fall. Anything Satan can do to keep us from God. And again. We still do not learn from the mistakes of the past.

 

[zone]

All we have to do is look at history. It is pride that has kept man from seeing the love of God. Pride kept satan from falling, and in his pride he fell. He uses that same "pride" against mankind. and we continue to fall. Anything Satan can do to keep us from God. And again. We still do not learn from the mistakes of the past.

oh yes.. what an EPIC FAILURE on the part of the Creator of the Universe to not make ALL MEN PERFECT IN THE FLESH....no, just a chosen few.

unbelieveable. where are the Perfectionists now to pick up the pieces EG?

 

[zone]

Ive never seen God and Im nowhere near perfect, i still get angry, i still lust, i still have sinful thoughts, i still judge others and the list goes on, so I guess im going to hell. *sigh* well thats disappointing I guess Ill just go back to weed and porn now, excuse me while i travel my road to eternal damnation.

love you Lad.


~

to the responsible parties:

well?
WHERE ARE THE PERFECTIONISTS NOW?
start posting. clean up your mess.

 

[Laodicea]

Ive never seen God and Im nowhere near perfect, i still get angry, i still lust, i still have sinful thoughts, i still judge others and the list goes on, so I guess im going to hell. *sigh* well thats disappointing I guess Ill just go back to weed and porn now, excuse me while i travel my road to eternal damnation.

We are not saved because we are worthy but because He is worthy

Revelation 5:4
(4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Revelation 5:9
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy (Christ) to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[zone]

another branch of perfectionism heresy:

Tuesday, November 30, 2010

The Third-Wave incarnation of the Manifest Sons of God Heresy in the 21st Century Charismatic Church.

The Manifest Sons of God

In 1948 a movement was born that remains a blight on the church to this day. It sprung out of a revival that was known as the &#8220;Latter Rain&#8221; revival. Heresy crept into this movement which shortly thereafter condemned by the Assemblies of God upon which it had a great effect. The erroneous doctrine known as the &#8220;Manifest Sons of God&#8221; (or Manifested Sons of God) was embraced by these &#8220;Latter Rain&#8221; proponents. This doctrine teaches an extreme eschatological view that the saints would be &#8220;glorified&#8221;, even &#8220;deified&#8221; right here on this earth before the resurrection. Other names by which this system of beliefs is identified include &#8220;Kingdom Now&#8221;, &#8220;Dominion Theology&#8221; or &#8220;Joel&#8217;s Army&#8221;. Proponents of this heresy believe that the end-time move of the spirit (prophesied by Joel) started with the Pentecostal movement, then the Charismatic Movement (which is now passé) and is now finally at what is being called &#8220;the Third Wave.&#8221;

BeyondGrace: The Third-Wave incarnation of the Manifest Sons of God Heresy in the 21st Century Charismatic Church.

~

if we don't see a pattern yet there's something wrong.
see the same names? over and over?
get these guys OUT of your church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh yes.. what an EPIC FAILURE on the part of the Creator of the Universe to not make ALL MEN PERFECT IN THE FLESH....no, just a chosen few.

unbelieveable. where are the Perfectionists now to pick up the pieces EG?

what pieces? They scripture tells us King david was not perfect, yet was called a friend of God. Paul was not perfect. peater was not perfect. nor James and John. Yet God somehow chose these no name men and woman to be perfect so they can go around judging the world and telling it how sinfull it is and how perfect they are? Jesus, who was perfect, Did not even go around doing this. why would we expect God to have people who are not perfect doing this?

 

[unclefester]

what pieces? They scripture tells us King david was not perfect, yet was called a friend of God. Paul was not perfect. peater was not perfect. nor James and John. Yet God somehow chose these no name men and woman to be perfect so they can go around judging the world and telling it how sinfull it is and how perfect they are? Jesus, who was perfect, Did not even go around doing this. why would we expect God to have people who are not perfect doing this?[/quote]


Isn't it something to behold ? Seems if we were one of the "brethren" to whom God's word isn't necessary to learn of Him, we'd understand. Not surprisingly, we'd "speak in tongues" as well. Some of us would even be apsotles and prophets. Can you say "trainwreck" waiting to happen ?