The Heresy of Perfectionism
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F
I see that I have igniting the wrath of Zone once again. However, she's on my ignore list, so I'm not going to argue with her or exchange insults.
Anyways, my challenge still stands. Do your research folks. You would be suprised as to what you will find out when you begin to dig deep into church history.
BTW - I'm not condemning all Calvinists. There were some great ones as well. Johnathan Edwards, George Whitefield and Andrew Murray are three of my personal favorites and just goes to show that we are not saved by doctrines based on traditions of men but rather by personal faith in Jesus Christ.
Anyways, my challenge still stands. Do your research folks. You would be suprised as to what you will find out when you begin to dig deep into church history.
BTW - I'm not condemning all Calvinists. There were some great ones as well. Johnathan Edwards, George Whitefield and Andrew Murray are three of my personal favorites and just goes to show that we are not saved by doctrines based on traditions of men but rather by personal faith in Jesus Christ.
A
Really, you agree with this? you think WE demand the way He saves and sanctifies us? On our terms?
The way we think it should be?
Do you even understand the terms, standing, and state?
Why we need to renew our minds?
What it means to grow in grace.
What it mean to become throughly perfected
What it means to be changed from glory to glory
absolutely unbelieveable.
where do these guys come from?
oh.
of course.
The Azusa Street Revival began in the spring of 1906 in a former stable in downtown Los Angeles where up to 1,000 a night came out to experience this new revival.
It lasted from 1906 to 1913. At one point Frank Bartleman described it as the second shower of the Latter rain. By 1915 the numbers visiting an involved waned. But what took place inside was spread elsewhere. Thousands of Pentecostal missionaries went out establishing ministries around the world.During this time period it was noted that the meetings also began tofill up with spiritualist mediums, hypnotists, and others interested in the occult.
Even Parham when he visited the mission in 1906 repudiated what here found (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic movements). A year after it began Parham (the teacher of Seymour the leader) was arrested (1907) and charged with sodomy in Texas, he lost all credibility with the neo-Pentecostal movement he started! Yet today he is still remembered as the originator.
http://letusreason.org/Pent57.htm
Neo-Montanism
[1901-present]
The Early Roots: 1830's
Edward Irving
where do these guys come from?
oh.
of course.
The Azusa Street Revival began in the spring of 1906 in a former stable in downtown Los Angeles where up to 1,000 a night came out to experience this new revival.
It lasted from 1906 to 1913. At one point Frank Bartleman described it as the second shower of the Latter rain. By 1915 the numbers visiting an involved waned. But what took place inside was spread elsewhere. Thousands of Pentecostal missionaries went out establishing ministries around the world.During this time period it was noted that the meetings also began tofill up with spiritualist mediums, hypnotists, and others interested in the occult.
Even Parham when he visited the mission in 1906 repudiated what here found (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic movements). A year after it began Parham (the teacher of Seymour the leader) was arrested (1907) and charged with sodomy in Texas, he lost all credibility with the neo-Pentecostal movement he started! Yet today he is still remembered as the originator.
http://letusreason.org/Pent57.htm
Neo-Montanism
[1901-present]
The Early Roots: 1830's
Edward Irving
- In the western world Pentecostalism generally traces its roots back to the teachings and experiences of Edward Irving, a Presbyterian Minister in Scotland in the early 1800's. After studying the Book of Acts he began to teach that what the early church experienced was to be normative for the church in his day. He was excommunicated from the Presbyterian Church over his heretical Christological doctrines. (Strachan, George, The Pentecostal Theology of Edward Irving, Hendrickson Publishers, 1973, pg. 13)
- On March 28th 1830, a Miss Mary Campbell began to speak in other tongues and claimed she was divinely healed. The following year on October 30th 1831 her sister, Mrs. Cardale also began to speak in tongues and to prophesy.
- Edward Irving formed his own church called the Catholic Apostolic Church and he soon ordained its first twelve apostles on November 7th, 1832. "He also expounded a detailed teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and gave the whole of his theology an immediacy by his expectation of the immanent second coming of the Lord. (Strachan, George, The Pentecostal Theology of Edward Irving, Hendrickson Publishers, 1973, pg. 18)He died shortly thereafter, but the movement he started, which became known as "Irvingites."
- Edward Irving is to be considered among the first true Neo-Montanists due to his beliefs in:
- In the restoration of the charismatic gifts, including prophecy
- His unwillingness to submit to recognized Church authority regarding his beliefs
- His approval of women in ministry (coincidentally, women were the first to prophesy in his movement)
- His belief in the also immediate return of Christ, i.e. a strong eschatological emphasis.
E
I know this is for Zone. But I want a crack at it.
1. Is this life, your pet theology, or your favorite sin worth your soul? Nothing is worth my soul
2. Would you not give up everything for a chance to spend eternity with God? What could I give up? I could give God everything I had, including my life. and still fall short. and never make it to heaven. Because I am still judged and damned because of any sin I have (or Had) in my life. It would be pridefull and arrogant of me to think I could ever earn Gods love, or his salvation. Not to mention saying I could would be admiting Christ died for nothing. Why would I want to do this?
3. The great day of judgment will indeed come one day. are you ready today, to stand before God and give an account? Yes I am, Because I was good? Because I was perfect? Because I did all these works? No. Because Christ took the penalty for me. I am saved by his life. because of his death, without this. I have nothign to stand on.
Why do people think they could ever earn Gods love and eternal salvation? People like this are no better than the pharisees. They would crucify Christ again if they could. because Christ would mock them like he did the pharisees. WAKE UP!
Edward Irving (Irvingites)
Creation and Manipulation of Popular Religion: the case of Christian Zionism. Christianity as taught by televangelists such as Billy Graham, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, is one of America's most widely held religions. It is also as close as Constitutional decorum will permit, to becoming an official state religion. It's been openly professed by successive Presidents and by prayer meetings and song at John Ashcroft's justice department. Yet this fundamentalist, pentacostal, pre-millenialist, dispensationalist version of Christianity (referred to in this article as Christian Zionism because of its political affinity to Judaic Zionism) has almost no resemblance to the religion of the Protestant Reformation, much less the Roman church, or the mysterious Christianity of the first century AD. At every step to the creation of this potent new religion, we can see the psychopathic hand of secret societies.
A boost from the world of the Occult: Edward Irving was a charismatic preacher who was building a spiritual, pentecostal church. There are some indications that he and his church were involved with spiritual occult philosophy, although the details are far from clear. "The Last Trumpet" (Tim Warner) cites a letter by Irving in which he mentions "visions or revelations" given to Mary Campbell and Margaret MacDonald: "The substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret Macdonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express. "
These psychic visions, of course, gave substantial reinforcement to the radically new theological content of the "pre-Tribulation" church. The anonymous author of the Larouchite web site "econcrisis.homestead.com" quotes Robert Norton and Andrew Drummond as further sources for the belief that Mary Campbell and Margared Macdonald may have had some interest in occult skills such as would typically be learned in an occult secret society.
Scofield brings along the psychopathic tendency: In a critique of Scofield's Reference Bible and other manifestations of fundamentalism, the modernist Protestant Christian author Bruce Bawer wrote (in Stealing Jesus, 1997):
http://www.911-strike.com/christian-zionists.htm
Creation and Manipulation of Popular Religion: the case of Christian Zionism. Christianity as taught by televangelists such as Billy Graham, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, is one of America's most widely held religions. It is also as close as Constitutional decorum will permit, to becoming an official state religion. It's been openly professed by successive Presidents and by prayer meetings and song at John Ashcroft's justice department. Yet this fundamentalist, pentacostal, pre-millenialist, dispensationalist version of Christianity (referred to in this article as Christian Zionism because of its political affinity to Judaic Zionism) has almost no resemblance to the religion of the Protestant Reformation, much less the Roman church, or the mysterious Christianity of the first century AD. At every step to the creation of this potent new religion, we can see the psychopathic hand of secret societies.
A boost from the world of the Occult: Edward Irving was a charismatic preacher who was building a spiritual, pentecostal church. There are some indications that he and his church were involved with spiritual occult philosophy, although the details are far from clear. "The Last Trumpet" (Tim Warner) cites a letter by Irving in which he mentions "visions or revelations" given to Mary Campbell and Margaret MacDonald: "The substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret Macdonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express. "
These psychic visions, of course, gave substantial reinforcement to the radically new theological content of the "pre-Tribulation" church. The anonymous author of the Larouchite web site "econcrisis.homestead.com" quotes Robert Norton and Andrew Drummond as further sources for the belief that Mary Campbell and Margared Macdonald may have had some interest in occult skills such as would typically be learned in an occult secret society.
Scofield brings along the psychopathic tendency: In a critique of Scofield's Reference Bible and other manifestations of fundamentalism, the modernist Protestant Christian author Bruce Bawer wrote (in Stealing Jesus, 1997):
The Scofield Reference Bible looks like a lot of Bibles: Each page contains two columns of scripture separated by a narrower column of cross-references. What distinguishes it from most Bibles is that it also contains extensive footnotes. These footnotes add up to a highly tendentious dispensationalist interpretation of the Bible. There are whole books of Scofield's Bible in which the annotation is minimal, almost absent; but in other books there are pages on which the annotation takes up far more space than the text. Like Jefferson's Bible, then, Scofield's Bible is an extraordinary act of audacity. But the two men came at Scripture from utterly opposite directions. Jefferson sought to preserve Jesus' moral teachings and to remove materials (including accounts of miracles and prophecies) that seemed to him ahistorical and thus, as Jaroslav Pelikan has written, to "find the essence of true religion in the Gospels." Scofield also sought "the essence of true religion", but he located this essence not in the moral teachings of the Gospels butin the miracles and prophecies, most of them located outside the Gospels. Jefferson's chaff, in short, was Scofield's wheat.
The Scofield Reference Bible was a brilliant idea. Over the centuries, countless theologians had written learned books in which they grappled with the complex, ambiguous, often contradictory meanings of scripture. But Scofield plainly knew two important things about the people he wanted to reach. One: They didn't read books of theology, but they did look at their Bibles (if only occasionally). Two: they didn't want to grapple with complexities and ambiguities and contradictions: they wanted certitude, orthodoxy.
This Scofield gave them in spades. His footnotes never offer up different possible interpretations of a text; instead, they set forth, with an air of total authority, a detailed, elaborate, and consistent set of interpretations that add up to a theological system that few Christians before Darby could have conceived of -- and that, indeed, marked a radical departure from the ways in which most Christians had always believed. Yet Scofield brazenly proferred his theology as if it were beyond question. And he presented it as if it were traditional, and as if every other way of understanding the true nature of Christian belief marked a radical departure from the true faith.... The chutzpah here is mind-boggling.
Clearly a major propaganda coup for the fundamentalists, the Scofield Bible became possibly the most important and well-remembered instrument for spreading the Christian Zionist faith. Yet it did not occur in a vacuum, and Scofield was no innocent seeker after the true subtleties of theology..........The Scofield Reference Bible was a brilliant idea. Over the centuries, countless theologians had written learned books in which they grappled with the complex, ambiguous, often contradictory meanings of scripture. But Scofield plainly knew two important things about the people he wanted to reach. One: They didn't read books of theology, but they did look at their Bibles (if only occasionally). Two: they didn't want to grapple with complexities and ambiguities and contradictions: they wanted certitude, orthodoxy.
This Scofield gave them in spades. His footnotes never offer up different possible interpretations of a text; instead, they set forth, with an air of total authority, a detailed, elaborate, and consistent set of interpretations that add up to a theological system that few Christians before Darby could have conceived of -- and that, indeed, marked a radical departure from the ways in which most Christians had always believed. Yet Scofield brazenly proferred his theology as if it were beyond question. And he presented it as if it were traditional, and as if every other way of understanding the true nature of Christian belief marked a radical departure from the true faith.... The chutzpah here is mind-boggling.
http://www.911-strike.com/christian-zionists.htm
The saved sinner doctrine is straight from Hell. Only Satan wants believers to think they are still sinners. Further more her reformed calvinistic beliefs are all demonic at their roots. Just like humans we can see true and false doctrine by their fruit. Calvinism has nothing but corrupt fruit. These doctrine are popular because they tickle the ear, rathwer than convict the soul.
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
A
I must be invisible, for a week my posts have not been answered. Then ill have to settle for the
fact that a few certain people will make accusations emotionally and run without any evidence.
4runner. Still waiting for you to explain zones doctrine of demons. No Christian should make an
accusation without proving it. Im sure youll get to it soon.
fact that a few certain people will make accusations emotionally and run without any evidence.
4runner. Still waiting for you to explain zones doctrine of demons. No Christian should make an
accusation without proving it. Im sure youll get to it soon.
A
i think he named two "calvanism" and "saved sinner" not sure what he's talking about but that is what he pointed out.
I have a strong suspicion he has no clue what Zone really believes and just likes labels but I don't buy into labels so <shrugs>
gonna find some edifying threads that talk about JESUS and GOD now.
I have a strong suspicion he has no clue what Zone really believes and just likes labels but I don't buy into labels so <shrugs>
gonna find some edifying threads that talk about JESUS and GOD now.
A
I only see alot of talk and emotion on your part. And some fixation on Calvin. And 4 verses. Where is the doctrine of demons? You havnt explained anything.
Why reprove if the saint is perfect?
Why rebuke a perfect saint?
Why even preach?
I can see your attitude, just cant see any doctrine of demons. Just your apparent
misunderstanding. Isnt this thread called the heresy of perfectionism?
Luke 18
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayeda thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayeda thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”