The Heresy of Perfectionism
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Abiding,
A sinner is one that has fallen short and has no power to get up without falling short again and again. A sinner is someone that needs mercy to take away what he deserves and needs grace to give him what he does not deserve. If he or she is a saved, blood bought redeemed sinner that has been justified, they need the same things again, again and again, over and over and over. Those that love much have been forgiven much. Forgiven of what, eating too much pizza? No, forgiven of personal sin. Mercy and grace, mercy and grace, mercy and grace. Do you think there is any significance to the opening and closing of Paul's letters to the churches that began and closed with mercy, grace and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ. What would I need mercy and grace for on this earth,being in this earthen vessel, if I was not a sinner.
A sinner is one that has fallen short and has no power to get up without falling short again and again. A sinner is someone that needs mercy to take away what he deserves and needs grace to give him what he does not deserve. If he or she is a saved, blood bought redeemed sinner that has been justified, they need the same things again, again and again, over and over and over. Those that love much have been forgiven much. Forgiven of what, eating too much pizza? No, forgiven of personal sin. Mercy and grace, mercy and grace, mercy and grace. Do you think there is any significance to the opening and closing of Paul's letters to the churches that began and closed with mercy, grace and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ. What would I need mercy and grace for on this earth,being in this earthen vessel, if I was not a sinner.
4runner wants to be perfect and be sinless without grace and that can't happen. He will never learn to forgive the sin of others until he has been forgiven of his sin. He will never be able to give others grace when they sin until God is able to give him grace when he sins. It is impossible for any believer to live a life pleasing to God without mercy and grace because they are sinners that have been justified positionally but are nor perfect in their experience because of sin.
A
Why do you have such little patience? If presumption is a sin, which to me
its one of the worst sins, it leads to false ideas of people. Thankyou for your
definition.
You say....chronic, unrepentant sin. ok
That changes everything. First of all. is that the biblical definition of " sinner"
If not then we wont be able to dialogue.
My belief is that your wrong.
My belief is that those who are continuing in chronic, unrepentant are sinners, and also those who ever commit a sin are sinners, whether on purpose or just in weakness.
See if you are feeding that into what other paople are saying, than you are committing a big error
and totally misunderstanding them...no wonder you make all these false accusations.
I Peter 1
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
A
Exactly, and there is no attainment really. If we continue to abide in Him and His words abide in us
we will bear fruit. If we slack, we will fall behind, grow weak, and fail again. Without Him we can do nothing.
Everyday Is a day we are in need to be filled with His grace. We cant let our strength deceive us to where we dont pray for His grace to save us from our strengths and goodnesses also. Take heed lest ye fall. Not to think of ourselves more highly than we out to think, but soberly. opps...started a sermon. But He is always willing to fill us, if we ask. amen
A
Well I see now why you argue so much. If you ask around, youll find that most believers
mean what I said. That until you are perfect, your a sinner.
The subject of license, overt carefree sin etc is a totally different subject.
So your agueing and namecalling and accusations mean nothing, becuase there
is a serious difference in your defination.
Do you agree that you difference in difination is a big problem?
First of all, I think we're having a communication problem.
I didn’t say that a person saved by the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, will continue to practice the works of the flesh without remorse or repentance.
What I tried to say was that even being accepted as adopted children of God, we are still stuck in this body that is not perfect due to the Fall of Adam. Thus, the Holy Spirit (who dwells in us) militates against this body.
In Romans 7:14-25, Paul describes himself and the believers in general that even being in Christ and free from the condemnation of the law, they still don't meet perfectly the requirements of the law. Paul was aware that God's law is "spiritual" (v. 14). Indeed, he delighted in the law of God, desiring to fulfill it perfectly (vs.15-23), and he was distressed because of sin that opposed that desire. But he was pleased at the prospect of a future deliverance of his frustration (v. 24; Romans 8:23)
So the Christian lives in two worlds at once. This is why “the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other” (Galatians 5:17). The victory against the enemy (the sin that dwells in us) doesn’t come without a struggle. The victory is only through Jesus Christ.
So, does it mean that in our pilgrimage we will not sin anymore? Of course not! Christ himself assumes that we will sin in this life (Matthew 6:12). But the difference is that the true christian struggle against sin and the wicked delight in sin.
When Christ redeemed us, He not only redeemed our spirit (or soul), He redeemed us as whole persons, and that includes the redemption of our body. Therefore, the application of the redemptive work of Christ for us will not be complete until the body be entirely free from the effects of the fall and thus taken to the state of perfection for which God created it. In fact, the redemption of our body will only happen when Christ returns and raise him from the dead. But at the present time, Paul says that we hope for "redemption of our body" and then adds: "For we are saved by hope" (Romans 8.23,24)
Shalom
I didn’t say that a person saved by the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, will continue to practice the works of the flesh without remorse or repentance.
What I tried to say was that even being accepted as adopted children of God, we are still stuck in this body that is not perfect due to the Fall of Adam. Thus, the Holy Spirit (who dwells in us) militates against this body.
In Romans 7:14-25, Paul describes himself and the believers in general that even being in Christ and free from the condemnation of the law, they still don't meet perfectly the requirements of the law. Paul was aware that God's law is "spiritual" (v. 14). Indeed, he delighted in the law of God, desiring to fulfill it perfectly (vs.15-23), and he was distressed because of sin that opposed that desire. But he was pleased at the prospect of a future deliverance of his frustration (v. 24; Romans 8:23)
So the Christian lives in two worlds at once. This is why “the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other” (Galatians 5:17). The victory against the enemy (the sin that dwells in us) doesn’t come without a struggle. The victory is only through Jesus Christ.
So, does it mean that in our pilgrimage we will not sin anymore? Of course not! Christ himself assumes that we will sin in this life (Matthew 6:12). But the difference is that the true christian struggle against sin and the wicked delight in sin.
When Christ redeemed us, He not only redeemed our spirit (or soul), He redeemed us as whole persons, and that includes the redemption of our body. Therefore, the application of the redemptive work of Christ for us will not be complete until the body be entirely free from the effects of the fall and thus taken to the state of perfection for which God created it. In fact, the redemption of our body will only happen when Christ returns and raise him from the dead. But at the present time, Paul says that we hope for "redemption of our body" and then adds: "For we are saved by hope" (Romans 8.23,24)
Shalom
what should we do about all this?
Luke 3
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
do you want this forgiven? is it sin?
or is it just mistakes?
Luke 3
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
do you want this forgiven? is it sin?
or is it just mistakes?