The institution of the real presence of Jesus' body in the eucharist.

[rainacorn]

we take communion because Jesus established it, and he instructed us to eat of his body and drink his blood. It is a hard teaching and even Jesus agreed so, but it was necessary to have eternal life amongst other things.

We have communion and share in it because we are saved by the one baptism. We too who partake of Jesus body are one body, the body of Christ.

So whether you think it is necessary or not Jesus said on a number of occassions that we will be partaking of his body and blood.

Some think he was just speaking "spiritually" but that is a cop-out and a heresy which takes away the power of Jesus own words. Protestants want everyone to obey the word but then when we want to obey Jesus own words we are told not to take it seriously only "spirituallY" when they mean spirit as "figurative" as if it a mere parable. It is not a parable that we should obey Jesus own words because he taught his own disciples to eat of his flesh. By God's grace he gives it to us in the form of bread and wine so that we are not cannibals and are not disgusted. But that is God's way.

The catholics seem far more in tune with the mystery of God's real power and presence through the Holy Spirit and will not take Jesus or his words lightly or for granted.

Especially when he himself tells us how solemn he talks and assured he is of his words.His words are very very profoundly said and so cannot be taken lightly.

John 6:53
And Jesus said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood

Don't quote me if you're not talking to me.

I will ask for clarification one more time and then I'm totally done with this nonsense.

Is communion NECESSARY for SALVATION?

You said it wasn't but this post suggests you believe it is. You said in this post that communion is necessary for eternal life.

I get that you think Protestants all have it wrong because they believe communion is representative of the sacrifice. But, from what I understand, Catholics also believe it is representative, even though their view of what happens when you put it in your mouth is different. If I have that point wrong, please correct it. Don't just repeat yourself or make accusations... explain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we take communion because Jesus established it, and he instructed us to eat of his body and drink his blood. It is a hard teaching and even Jesus agreed so, but it was necessary to have eternal life amongst other things.

We have communion and share in it because we are saved by the one baptism. We too who partake of Jesus body are one body, the body of Christ.

So whether you think it is necessary or not Jesus said on a number of occassions that we will be partaking of his body and blood.

Some think he was just speaking "spiritually" but that is a cop-out and a heresy which takes away the power of Jesus own words. Protestants want everyone to obey the word but then when we want to obey Jesus own words we are told not to take it seriously only "spirituallY" when they mean spirit as "figurative" as if it a mere parable. It is not a parable that we should obey Jesus own words because he taught his own disciples to eat of his flesh. By God's grace he gives it to us in the form of bread and wine so that we are not cannibals and are not disgusted. But that is God's way.

The catholics seem far more in tune with the mystery of God's real power and presence through the Holy Spirit and will not take Jesus or his words lightly or for granted.

Especially when he himself tells us how solemn he talks and assured he is of his words.His words are very very profoundly said and so cannot be taken lightly.

John 6:53
And Jesus said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood

The problem with your thinking is you take on part of the whole passage of john 6 and ignore the context and meaning of all Jesus said to take one verse and make it fit your false doctrine.

Jesus was chastening them for searching for food which dies, and instead look for food which endures forever.

He said they could eat this food once and never hunger and thirst again. yet you hunger and thirst for it weekly.

He said whoever eats this food will live forever. You said they might still die (spiritually)

He said they have eternal life. You state they can lose it meaning it is not eternal.

He said whoever eats it will be raised by him on the last day. You teach they still might not be raised, but delievered for eternal judgment.

He said they ate food, like mannah, which they had to eat over and over because that food lost its power (died) they should eat this food which one can eat and never die, because it never loses its power (dies) You say eat it once a week. Because it does not sustain its power (dies) and thus must be continually eaten.

The passage does not support your claim or the eucharistic theology.

 

[Hearer]

John 6
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

what is the "bread"? Jesus tells us it is the WORDs that He speaks to the disciples which is SPIRIT. it is not "figurative" and but is "spiritual" for God is Spirit. That does NOT make it less SERIOUS. Most Christians talk every Word uttered from the Lord quite Seriously.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Jesus is the WORD/Bread that came down from Heaven, to eat of His flesh is to consume His words and allow them to live and transform your heart for men shall not live on bread alone but EVERY WORD from God.

Jesus himself in his ownmost very self is the bread and the living word. Not his words on paper or in the ear or on the tongue.

Jesus' presence himself as the very bread must be eaten. Jesus did not refer to his words but his body and blood must be eaten. When did he ever say his words and not himself as the living bread must be eaten?

Prove that from your scriptures. It is easier to prove that the reason why the jews were disgusted is because in their original langaue they knew he was speaking literally. There are other ways to say 'figurative' which he never did, they knew he was severely serious in a literal way and that he as the very bread had to be eaten.

That is why catholics eat Jesus himself.

 

[AnandaHya]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

Deuteronomy 8:3
So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”

Proverbs 23:12
Apply your heart to instruction, And your ears to words of knowledge.

 

[Hearer]

Jesus taught us to chew him and gnaw his flesh as well as eat it. Which proved to Jews that he was being for them overly literal, and he meant it, because he was able to provide himself as food

Proof from Scripture


This may be adduced both from the words of promise (John 6:26 sqq.) and, especially, from the words of Institution as recorded in the Synoptics and St. Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23 sqq.).
The words of promise (John 6) By the miracles of the loaves and fishes and the walking upon the waters, on the previous day, Christ not only prepared His hearers for the sublime discourse containing the promise of the Eucharist, but also proved to them that He possessed, as Almighty God-man, a power superior to and independent of the laws of nature, and could, therefore, provide such a supernatural food, none other, in fact, than His own Flesh and Blood. This discourse was delivered at Capharnaum (John 6:26-72), and is divided into two distinct parts, about the relation of which Catholic exegetes vary in opinion. Nothing hinders our interpreting the first part [John 6:26-48 (51)] metaphorically and understanding by "bread of heaven" Christ Himself as the object of faith, to be received in a figurative sense as a spiritual food by the mouth of faith. Such a figurative explanation of the second part of the discourse (John 6:52-72), however, is not only unusual but absolutely impossible, as even Protestant exegetes (Delitzsch, Kostlin, Keil, Kahnis, and others) readily concede. First of all the whole structure of the discourse of promise demands a literal interpretation of the words: "eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood". For Christ mentions a threefold food in His address, the manna of the past (John 6:31, 32, 49,, 59), the heavenly bread of the present (John 6:32 sq.), and the Bread of Life of the future (John 6:27, 52). Corresponding to the three kinds of food and the three periods, there are as many dispensers — Moses dispensing the manna, the Father nourishing man's faith in the Son of God made flesh, finally Christ giving His own Flesh and Blood. Although the manna, a type of the Eucharist, was indeed eaten with the mouth, it could not, being a transitory food, ward off death. The second food, that offered by the Heavenly Father, is the bread of heaven, which He dispenses hic et nunc to the Jews for their spiritual nourishment, inasmuch as by reason of the Incarnation He holds up His Son to them as the object of their faith. If, however, the third kind of food, which Christ Himself promises to give only at a future time, is a new refection, differing from the last-named food of faith, it can be none other than His true Flesh and Blood, to be really eaten and drunk in Holy Communion. This is why Christ was so ready to use the realistic expression "to chew" (John 6:54, 56, 58: trogein) when speaking of this, His Bread of Life, in addition to the phrase, "to eat" (John 6:51, 53: phagein).

Source: Newadvent Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus himself in his ownmost very self is the bread and the living word. Not his words on paper or in the ear or on the tongue.

Jesus' presence himself as the very bread must be eaten. Jesus did not refer to his words but his body and blood must be eaten. When did he ever say his words and not himself as the living bread must be eaten?

Prove that from your scriptures. It is easier to prove that the reason why the jews were disgusted is because in their original langaue they knew he was speaking literally. There are other ways to say 'figurative' which he never did, they knew he was severely serious in a literal way and that he as the very bread had to be eaten.

That is why catholics eat Jesus himself.

Thats ok. I ate what he said and what he did. And have recieved this food which endures forever. I never hunger or thirst. because I have the living water he came to give (john 4) I have eternal life because of the words he spoke to me thorugh his word and the spirit. I know I will be raised by him, because he promised that whever eats his flesh and drinks his blood will live forever, never die, never hunger or thirst. Live forever. and be raised by him.

I do not fear being delever to him for judgment on the last day. Because it is his flesh which gives me life. Thus I can never die. As Scripture says, In the hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began. If I have no hope. I have no faith. My faith is in his promise. Not a buch of sacramental works which does not assure us anything.

 

[Hearer]

Jesus taught us to chew him and gnaw his flesh as well as eat it. Which proved to Jews that he was being for them overly literal, and he meant it, because he was able to provide himself as food

Proof from Scripture


This may be adduced both from the words of promise (John 6:26 sqq.) and, especially, from the words of Institution as recorded in the Synoptics and St. Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23 sqq.).
The words of promise (John 6) By the miracles of the loaves and fishes and the walking upon the waters, on the previous day, Christ not only prepared His hearers for the sublime discourse containing the promise of the Eucharist, but also proved to them that He possessed, as Almighty God-man, a power superior to and independent of the laws of nature, and could, therefore, provide such a supernatural food, none other, in fact, than His own Flesh and Blood. This discourse was delivered at Capharnaum (John 6:26-72), and is divided into two distinct parts, about the relation of which Catholic exegetes vary in opinion. Nothing hinders our interpreting the first part [John 6:26-48 (51)] metaphorically and understanding by "bread of heaven" Christ Himself as the object of faith, to be received in a figurative sense as a spiritual food by the mouth of faith. Such a figurative explanation of the second part of the discourse (John 6:52-72), however, is not only unusual but absolutely impossible, as even Protestant exegetes (Delitzsch, Kostlin, Keil, Kahnis, and others) readily concede. First of all the whole structure of the discourse of promise demands a literal interpretation of the words: "eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood". For Christ mentions a threefold food in His address, the manna of the past (John 6:31, 32, 49,, 59), the heavenly bread of the present (John 6:32 sq.), and the Bread of Life of the future (John 6:27, 52). Corresponding to the three kinds of food and the three periods, there are as many dispensers — Moses dispensing the manna, the Father nourishing man's faith in the Son of God made flesh, finally Christ giving His own Flesh and Blood. Although the manna, a type of the Eucharist, was indeed eaten with the mouth, it could not, being a transitory food, ward off death. The second food, that offered by the Heavenly Father, is the bread of heaven, which He dispenses hic et nunc to the Jews for their spiritual nourishment, inasmuch as by reason of the Incarnation He holds up His Son to them as the object of their faith. If, however, the third kind of food, which Christ Himself promises to give only at a future time, is a new refection, differing from the last-named food of faith, it can be none other than His true Flesh and Blood, to be really eaten and drunk in Holy Communion. This is why Christ was so ready to use the realistic expression "to chew" (John 6:54, 56, 58: trogein) when speaking of this, His Bread of Life, in addition to the phrase, "to eat" (John 6:51, 53: phagein).

Source: Newadvent Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[AnandaHya]

Galatians 1:5-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

 

[Hearer]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

Deuteronomy 8:3
So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”

Proverbs 23:12
Apply your heart to instruction, And your ears to words of knowledge.

but John tells us that Jesus is hilmself, in his very ownmost self, the Word. It is him who we are to chew and gnaw and eat.

From the original greek scriptures which in english we have a weak translation the literal words were used:


Christ was so ready to use the realistic expression "to chew" (John 6:54, 56, 58: trogein) when speaking of this, His Bread of Life, in addition to the phrase, "to eat" (John 6:51, 53: phagein).

 

[AnandaHya]

maybe you chew on HIM who is the WORD of God?

don't think that has anything to do with communion bread and wine though...

 

[loveschild]

Jesus is not a piece a bread. Take eat this is my body.....it is very important to think of Jesus' body being torn to pieces, whipped for our sins. He took the sins of the whole wide world to the cross. We weren't even born yet and he took all our sins to the cross. He made the way by his body and blood for us not to go to hell as we deserved.

It is so important to be so grateful as to what Jesus did for us at the cross with letting his body be mangled for us and his blood shed for us before we take communion. Thanking and asking God to forgive our sins.

It is like wise so important to remember how Father rose Jesus from the dead and made him alive. Alive for ever more. That life runs through our veins as children of God. The same power that rose Jesus from the dead is same power that lets us have victory in our lives.

We are washed of our sins and we have ever living power of God that is ours in Christ Jesus. We have victory like Jesus. Every time you do communion you are taking in the life force of Father, Son and Holy Spirit into your your being.

Communion should be done everyday. No the bread is not actually Jesus, no the blood is not actually the blood of Jesus but the partaking of these are so very important to us. To bring life and power of God into us.

People that turn the bread and the wine into making it out as God it's self have turn it into a curse. They worship the things and not God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but John tells us that Jesus is hilmself, in his very ownmost self, the Word. It is him who we are to chew and gnaw and eat.

From the original greek scriptures which in english we have a weak translation the literal words were used:


Christ was so ready to use the realistic expression "to chew" (John 6:54, 56, 58: trogein) when speaking of this, His Bread of Life, in addition to the phrase, "to eat" (John 6:51, 53: phagein).

Yeah we do. We can not have faith on the words of God unless we "gnaw and eat" them. If we just taste them, or do not really chew on them to see what he is saying, we will not get it.

 

[Hearer]

Yeah we do. We can not have faith on the words of God unless we "gnaw and eat" them. If we just taste them, or do not really chew on them to see what he is saying, we will not get it.

yeah, won't get it. like his instruction to eat his flesh won't be "got".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yeah, won't get it. like his instruction to eat his flesh won't be "got".

Yeah, won't get it. You will not look for the food which endures forever. Which one can eat and never die. Which one can eat and never hunger and thirst again, Because your not looking for it. Your looking for a tradition or religious ceremony like the pharisees did. Which is why they did not get it either!

 

[Hearer]

Yeah, won't get it. You will not look for the food which endures forever. Which one can eat and never die. Which one can eat and never hunger and thirst again, Because your not looking for it. Your looking for a tradition or religious ceremony like the pharisees did. Which is why they did not get it either!

the pharisees were super spiritual and would not get their mouths dirty eating/drinkinjg blood and enjoying the mingling of their blood with that of Christ where the two bloodstreams combine, what Joy.

 

[AnandaHya]

People that turn the bread and the wine into making it out as God it's self have turn it into a curse. They worship the things and not God.
[/B]

yeah and they won't listen either but continue to worship their idols and man-made "god" which they can physically eat, which molds and becomes waste if left on the plate and not consume, because in their minds God's power is not spiritual but material. they worship the works of their hands and not GOD who created all things, because they believe they can physically consume God. Which is blasphemy. Whether people listen or not is between them and God.

Ezekiel 3:19-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.”

God is NOT communion Bread or wine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the pharisees were super spiritual and would not get their mouths dirty eating/drinkinjg blood and enjoying the mingling of their blood with that of Christ where the two bloodstreams combine, what Joy.

Do what? This has nothing to do with what I said. What does this have to do with everything Jesus said anyone who ate this flesh and blood is promised. Why is it you refuse to respond to anything Jesus said would be given to anyone who eats it? Is it because you do not have an answer?

 

[AnandaHya]

Matthew 6:8-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[a]

Luke 11:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,[a]
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.” [c

 

[Hearer]

Do what? This has nothing to do with what I said. What does this have to do with everything Jesus said anyone who ate this flesh and blood is promised. Why is it you refuse to respond to anything Jesus said would be given to anyone who eats it? Is it because you do not have an answer?

jesus also said that we should do the eucharist as a proper memorial to his death Each time we drink and eat of his flesh, broken and shed for us, we remember his death until he comes again.

Remembering is the actual (re-collection of the actual) event as it happened, the piecing together of the real event as a reality because in the setting up of the eucharist Jesus said this is my body broken for you.

So although eating the flesh once is enough, should we forget it then?

Too much already have we forgotten and so spiritualized the event of Jesus death the same way the liberals have relagated the events of the OT to mere story, mere words.

So although eating the flesh once might be enough, should we forget it then? And so disobeying the scriptures who said we should do this often.

"Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed; therefore, let us keep the feast." 1Cor 5:8

This passover is regularly eaten, not just once. And then we will not rely on human food or drink like those who received the bread from his miracles. Instead we eat contiuously of his flesh and be satisfied in a way human food cannot satisfy.

 

[loveschild]

Yeah we do. We can not have faith on the words of God unless we "gnaw and eat" them. If we just taste them, or do not really chew on them to see what he is saying, we will not get it.

It means study. Meditate. Learn.