The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

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Absolutely

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That's your problem, you follow the false teaching that the book of Revelation is seen in (Chronological Order) it's not :)

The book of Revelation is seen in (Parallel Teachings) of the same events.

Just One Example Below:

Revelation 20:7-8KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 16:12-15 below, is a "Parallel" teaching of Rev 20:7-8, the 6th vial is poured out, Satan is loosed.

(The Deception) is devils going forth to the Kings of the Nations, to gather them to battle, the 6th vial below was the binding of Satan, from this one specific purpose (Deceive The Nations) to battle, as verse 15 is the (Second Coming)

Rev 16:12-15KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
The easiest thing in the world is to compare the second coming on horses to the rapture verses and see the obvious....that they can not possibly be the same event.

Thank God i need no other starting place.

All you have done is make error your STARTING PLACE
 

Absolutely

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The easiest thing in the world is to compare the second coming on horses to the rapture verses and see the obvious....that they can not possibly be the same event.

Thank God i need no other starting place.

All you have done is make error your STARTING PLACE
Leave out the rapture verses is your best bet.
Just keep ignoring them
 

Absolutely

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When someone has no hope of standing toe to toe in debate, they go the liberal way of red exes.

It kinda weaponizes their posts.
 

Truth7t7

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When someone has no hope of standing toe to toe in debate, they go the liberal way of red exes.

It kinda weaponizes their posts.
The Red X Is In Disagreement, It Wouldn't Be In The Selection, If The Forum Admins Didn't Want It, I Disagree With You.
 

Truth7t7

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The easiest thing in the world is to compare the second coming on horses to the rapture verses and see the obvious....that they can not possibly be the same event.

Thank God i need no other starting place.

All you have done is make error your STARTING PLACE
You claim you have a pre-trib rapture in Rev 19:11-16 below?

This is nothing more than the (Second Coming) when the Lord Jesus returns in wrath and judgement, to the final battle.

Revelation 2:16KJV
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:11-16KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I was under the impression that 3rd woe/7th trumpet/casting down of Satan/empowering of the antichrist was the midpoint T/start of GT?

Rev 13:5,6
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
You are tending to want to "connect" the "3rd woe [/ 7th Trumpet]" with the events of MID-trib (as you've listed them above ^ ). I understand, many ppl do.

I do not believe that is the case, for the following reasons (which I only have a brief moment to touch on them, here):

--the FIRST MENTION (in Rev) of the word "woe" is in Rev8:13, which states: "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" [meaning Trumpets 5,6,7]; or, another version: "And I looked, and I heard one eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying in a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, because of the remaining voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound" [again, meaning Trumpets 5,6,7]

--the only other mentions of the word "woe" (in Rev) are the following:
... Rev9:12 "ONE WOE is past, and behold, there come TWO WOES MORE hereafter";
and Rev11:14 "The SECOND WOE is past, and behold, the THIRD WOE cometh quickly"...

... and in the Rev12:12 text, when Satan is cast down unto the earth, and his angels cast out with him, at the point in time when 1260 days are yet remaining (i.e. MID-trib)... the reason most ppl believe this is the "third woe" [i.e. 7th Trumpet] is because, duh, it comes next in the overall text, sequentially (in the text), and no other "mention" of "woe" is spoken of elsewhere in Rev (it's just these three, to choose from, left in the text [besides 8:13 speaking of these 3 "woes" / attached to Trumpets 5,6,7]); one of my reasons is in the wording of this verse (12:12)... it is the only one out of these 3 verses that adds the phrase "[woe] UNTO THE EARTH [and sea]," (of course, ALL 3 of them (according to 8:13) were said to be "woe TO THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH," but it seemed a bit odd to me that, if 12:12 were the LAST of the 3, it shouldn't JUST NOW be reading "[woe] TO THE EARTH [and sea]" as though none preceded this point (i.e. worded as though this 12:12 moment were the FIRST TIME the earth will be experiencing the "woe" having been spoken of)

--that got me looking into the "5th Trumpet [/ 1st 'Woe UNTO THE EARTH']" (as being the 12:12 MID-trib point / events), in 9:1, and I think the wording there is CONSISTENT with how the 12:12 (and context) things are worded... where 9:1 says, "...5th angel sounded, and I SAW A STAR [i.e. [(one of) Satan's] angel [12:9] (like in Dan8:10)] FALL FROM HEAVEN UNTO the earth [just as 12:9,10,12,13 is describing re: them]... etc, etc... b/c it makes more sense to me that 12:12's MID-trib events CONNECT with 9:1's events, if that makes sense.

So, basically, the WORDING, and the DESCRIPTIONS all seem to point to this being the case... IOW (or, on another note?), it is not "SATAN" BEING "LOOSED [out of the pit]" that the "angel with the key" is given to do, 9:1 / 5th Trumpet,... NO, that angel ('FALL FROM HEAVEN') is the point in time when Satan AND his angels are CAST DOWN UNTO the earth [together] (rather than being at a SEPARATE time that an angel "FALL FROM HEAVEN," see), and ONE of those angels has the task of opening the bottomless pit, with associated events following (MID-trib, onward... 1260 days / 42 months / 3.5 yrs / etc--the second half of the 7 yr period)... am I making sense?? = ) lol


[whew... I'm tired from the typing... my apologies if I'm not explaining things very well, in this post. Let me know... :D ]
 
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Truth7t7

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I was under the impression that 3rd woe/7th trumpet/casting down of Satan/empowering of the antichrist was the midpoint T/start of GT?

Rev 13:5,6
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
The 3rd woe in the 7th Trump is (The End) time no longer, the mystery of God is finished, he shall reign for ever and ever (Eternity)

Revelation 11:14-15KJV
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 10:5-7KJV
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 

Kolistus

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You claim you have a pre-trib rapture in Rev 19:11-16 below?

This is nothing more than the (Second Coming) when the Lord Jesus returns in wrath and judgement, to the final battle.

Revelation 2:16KJV
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:11-16KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
No one claims Revelation 19 is the rapture, well, except for post-tribbers who shove it in there somewhere.

One should ask themselves, if Jesus is coming DOWN from heaven to the earth with His saints, how did the saints get there?
 

Truth7t7

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No one claims Revelation 19 is the rapture, well, except for post-tribbers who shove it in there somewhere.

One should ask themselves, if Jesus is coming DOWN from heaven to the earth with His saints, how did the saints get there?
All Believers In The Church Are Saints, Those That Are With The Lord That Have Died.

1 Corinthians 1:2KJV

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Revelation 10:5-7KJV
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Another version puts it like this:

6 and he swore by the One living to the ages of the ages, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, then the mystery of God would be completed as proclaimed to His servants, the prophets.”


Note that the phrase "the mystery of God" is used only one other place:

"2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and to all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge [G1922 - epignosin - 'FULL-knowledge'] of the mystery of God, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.




...when studying out the "chronology" of the Revelation events, I believe this "no more delay"/"mystery of God be completed AS proclaimed to..." speaks more to a "specific date on the [Hebrew] calendar" (without going into that here), than it is to suggest this is saying it is the END-POINT of the trib years, here in this text. The VIALS will have yet to be unfolded, before that [the END-]point in time can arrive, and those themselves take SOME DURATION of TIME before the END of the trib years are completed (I won't present my "study" on the "chronology"/timing of the various things in Rev4-19, here... just wanted to comment on these two particular verses and their wording...)

That's how I see it. = )
 

Truth7t7

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You are tending to want to "connect" the "3rd woe [/ 7th Trumpet]" with the events of MID-trib (as you've listed them above ^ ). I understand, many ppl do.

I do not believe that is the case, for the following reasons (which I only have a brief moment to touch on them, here):

--the FIRST MENTION (in Rev) of the word "woe" is in Rev8:13, which states: "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" [meaning Trumpets 5,6,7]; or, another version: "And I looked, and I heard one eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying in a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, because of the remaining voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound" [again, meaning Trumpets 5,6,7]

--the only other mentions of the word "woe" (in Rev) are the following:
... Rev9:12 "ONE WOE is past, and behold, there come TWO WOES MORE hereafter";
and Rev11:14 "The SECOND WOE is past, and behold, the THIRD WOE cometh quickly"...

... and in the Rev12:12 text, when Satan is cast down unto the earth, and his angels cast out with him, at the point in time when 1260 days are yet remaining (i.e. MID-trib)... the reason most ppl believe this is the "third woe" [i.e. 7th Trumpet] is because, duh, it comes next in the overall text, sequentially (in the text), and no other "mention" of "woe" is spoken of elsewhere in Rev (it's just these three, to choose from, left in the text [besides 8:13 speaking of these 3 "woes" / attached to Trumpets 5,6,7]); one of my reasons is in the wording of this verse (12:12)... it is the only one out of these 3 verses that adds the phrase "[woe] UNTO THE EARTH [and sea]," (of course, ALL 3 of them (according to 8:13) were said to be "woe TO THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH," but it seemed a bit odd to me that, if 12:12 were the LAST of the 3, it shouldn't JUST NOW be reading "[woe] TO THE EARTH [and sea]" as though none preceded this point (i.e. worded as though this 12:12 moment were the FIRST TIME the earth will be experiencing the "woe" having been spoken of)

--that got me looking into the "5th Trumpet [/ 1st 'Woe UNTO THE EARTH']" (as being the 12:12 MID-trib point / events), in 9:1, and I think the wording there is CONSISTENT with how the 12:12 (and context) things are worded... where 9:1 says, "...5th angel sounded, and I SAW A STAR [i.e. [(one of) Satan's] angel [12:9] (like in Dan8:10)] FALL FROM HEAVEN UNTO the earth [just as 12:9,10,12,13 is describing re: them]... etc, etc... b/c it makes more sense to me that 12:12's MID-trib events CONNECT with 9:1's events, if that makes sense.

So, basically, the WORDING, and the DESCRIPTIONS all seem to point to this being the case... IOW (or, on another note?), it is not "SATAN" BEING "LOOSED [out of the pit]" that the "angel with the key" is given to do, 9:1 / 5th Trumpet,... NO, that angel ('FALL FROM HEAVEN') is the point in time when Satan AND his angels are CAST DOWN UNTO the earth [together] (rather than being at a SEPARATE time that an angel "FALL FROM HEAVEN," see), and ONE of those angels has the task of opening the bottomless pit, with associated events following (MID-trib, onward... 1260 days / 42 months / 3.5 yrs / etc--the second half of the 7 yr period)... am I making sense?? = ) lol


[whew... I'm tired from the typing... my apologies if I'm not explaining things very well, in this post. Let me know... :D ]
The "Mystery" of God is the (Last Day) resurrection, at the 7th and Last Trump, when time will cease, as the believers are changed, and receive the (Eternal) glorified body, at (The Second Coming)

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:5-7KJV
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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No one claims Revelation 19 is the rapture, well, except for post-tribbers who shove it in there somewhere.

One should ask themselves, if Jesus is coming DOWN from heaven to the earth with His saints, how did the saints get there?
Right. = )

And also ask... re: another text which says (to the angels / reapers) "gather/collect ye FIRST the TARES..." / and "gather OUT of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" (which is indeed an event occurring in the "Second Coming to the earth" time-slot); but if this (as described) is to take place "FIRST," as it says (re: the TARES), then what happens WHEN these saints in Rev19 are coming down with Him in Rev19, ... according to the POST-trib Rapture view? No one of the "unsaved [Tares]" would be present on the earth (according to Matt13's SEQUENCE issues), but this is not how Rev19 is describing things playing out, at that point... :unsure: hmm... does not jive. ;)

[verses 11-14, esp. v.14 describing persons/event ('coming down out of heaven') is PRECEDING v.21's "and the remnant were SLAIN"... not the other way around, sequentially-speaking :D ]




No, in fact, Matt13's "gather ye FIRST the TARES" is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to [the events involving/surrounding] "OUR RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]"... right!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ to add: At the time of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19, saints coming down WITH HIM), there will yet be existing on the earth BOTH "saved" and "unsaved" mortals of the Trib years... (which is who the "WHEAT" and TARES" speak of--"still-living persons" at the END of the trib yrs... the RIGHTEOUS will ENTER the MK age in their MORTAL BODIES [that Matt13 text is not speaking of "the Church which is His body" NOR "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]; the unsaved/tares/cursed will NOT ENTER that MK time period)
 

Truth7t7

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the unsaved/tares/cursed will NOT ENTER that MK time period)
What Are You Going To Do With All That Fire Seen Below In Scripture, "At The Second Coming" Of Jesus Christ, Pretend Like It Dosent Exist? :giggle:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

cv5

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You are tending to want to "connect" the "3rd woe [/ 7th Trumpet]" with the events of MID-trib (as you've listed them above ^ ). I understand, many ppl do.

I do not believe that is the case, for the following reasons (which I only have a brief moment to touch on them, here):

--the FIRST MENTION (in Rev) of the word "woe" is in Rev8:13, which states: "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" [meaning Trumpets 5,6,7]; or, another version: "And I looked, and I heard one eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying in a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, because of the remaining voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound" [again, meaning Trumpets 5,6,7]

--the only other mentions of the word "woe" (in Rev) are the following:
... Rev9:12 "ONE WOE is past, and behold, there come TWO WOES MORE hereafter";
and Rev11:14 "The SECOND WOE is past, and behold, the THIRD WOE cometh quickly"...

... and in the Rev12:12 text, when Satan is cast down unto the earth, and his angels cast out with him, at the point in time when 1260 days are yet remaining (i.e. MID-trib)... the reason most ppl believe this is the "third woe" [i.e. 7th Trumpet] is because, duh, it comes next in the overall text, sequentially (in the text), and no other "mention" of "woe" is spoken of elsewhere in Rev (it's just these three, to choose from, left in the text [besides 8:13 speaking of these 3 "woes" / attached to Trumpets 5,6,7]); one of my reasons is in the wording of this verse (12:12)... it is the only one out of these 3 verses that adds the phrase "[woe] UNTO THE EARTH [and sea]," (of course, ALL 3 of them (according to 8:13) were said to be "woe TO THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH," but it seemed a bit odd to me that, if 12:12 were the LAST of the 3, it shouldn't JUST NOW be reading "[woe] TO THE EARTH [and sea]" as though none preceded this point (i.e. worded as though this 12:12 moment were the FIRST TIME the earth will be experiencing the "woe" having been spoken of)

--that got me looking into the "5th Trumpet [/ 1st 'Woe UNTO THE EARTH']" (as being the 12:12 MID-trib point / events), in 9:1, and I think the wording there is CONSISTENT with how the 12:12 (and context) things are worded... where 9:1 says, "...5th angel sounded, and I SAW A STAR [i.e. [(one of) Satan's] angel [12:9] (like in Dan8:10)] FALL FROM HEAVEN UNTO the earth [just as 12:9,10,12,13 is describing re: them]... etc, etc... b/c it makes more sense to me that 12:12's MID-trib events CONNECT with 9:1's events, if that makes sense.

So, basically, the WORDING, and the DESCRIPTIONS all seem to point to this being the case... IOW (or, on another note?), it is not "SATAN" BEING "LOOSED [out of the pit]" that the "angel with the key" is given to do, 9:1 / 5th Trumpet,... NO, that angel ('FALL FROM HEAVEN') is the point in time when Satan AND his angels are CAST DOWN UNTO the earth [together] (rather than being at a SEPARATE time that an angel "FALL FROM HEAVEN," see), and ONE of those angels has the task of opening the bottomless pit, with associated events following (MID-trib, onward... 1260 days / 42 months / 3.5 yrs / etc--the second half of the 7 yr period)... am I making sense?? = ) lol


[whew... I'm tired from the typing... my apologies if I'm not explaining things very well, in this post. Let me know... :D ]
Will dig into this later this evening.
PLEASE KEEP POSTING! Every word is worth its weight in gold.....:)
 

Kolistus

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Right. = )

And also ask... re: another text which says (to the angels / reapers) "gather/collect ye FIRST the TARES..." / and "gather OUT of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" (which is indeed an event occurring in the "Second Coming to the earth" time-slot); but if this (as described) is to take place "FIRST," as it says (re: the TARES), then what happens WHEN these saints in Rev19 are coming down with Him in Rev19, ... according to the POST-trib Rapture view? No one of the "unsaved [Tares]" would be present on the earth (according to Matt13's SEQUENCE issues), but this is not how Rev19 is describing things playing out, at that point... :unsure: hmm... does not jive. ;)

[verses 11-14, esp. v.14 describing persons/event ('coming down out of heaven') is PRECEDING v.21's "and the remnant were SLAIN"... not the other way around, sequentially-speaking :D ]




No, in fact, Matt13's "gather ye FIRST the TARES" is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to [the events involving/surrounding] "OUR RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]"... right!
More proof for the pre-trib rapture. I will share this with someone who is on the fence.
 

Major

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Just One Example:

The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib Rapture, Don't Be Deceived.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
I understand your need to make the resurrection of the saints as a last day event.

Now consider the fact that Jesus said that NO ONE KNOWS the time of His 2nd Coming. I submitt to you that when the 7 year peace treaty is made effictive between the A/C and Israel....at that very moment, every single Christian who has a Bible KNOWS THAT IN 7 YEARS Jesus is coming again.

The "Post-tribulation" theory completly removes the "IMMINANT" return of Christ.

I can read that from your posts that you have done a lot of study to make your theology work. I would also say that the early church probably for its 1st 1500 years had the amilinial position, so you are in good company.

Now if you will take the time to read the rest of this I will ose 4 positions that will cause severe peoblems for your theology.

#1.
If God miraculously preserves the church through the tribulation, why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at Armageddon, then why would God not continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel in Ex. 8:22/9:4/26, 10:23 from the wrath He poured out on Pharaoh and Egypt. Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints who are already immune at the same time? Does that make any sense at all????

#2.
If the rapture will take place in connection with the Lord’s posttribulational or LAST DAY coming, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25:31 will be redundant. Separation will have taken place in the very act of translation.
Again......how does that make any sense?????

#3.
If all tribulation believers are raptured and glorified just prior to the inauguration of the millennial Kingdom, who then will populate and propagate the Kingdom? The Scriptures indicate that the living unbelievers will be judged at the end of the tribulation and removed from the earth in Matthew 13:41-42 & 25:4. Yet, they also teach that children will be born to believers during the millennium and that these children will be capable of sin as seen in Isaiah 65:20 and Revelation 20:7-10. Under your LAST DAY Resurrrection/Rapture This will not be possible if all believers on earth have been glorified through a posttribulational rapture.

#4.
The posttribulational paradigm of the church being raptured on the LAST DAY and then immediately brought back to earth leaves no time for the Bema, ( the Judgment Seat of Christ) to occur as again seen i 1 Corth. 3:10-15, 2 Corth. 5:10, nor for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as recorded in Revelation 19:6-10.

Because of these events I submitt to you my brother that it can be concluded that a posttribulational time of the rapture on the LAST DAY is incongruous with the sheep-goat nation judgment, and, in fact, eliminates two critical end-time events.

A pretribulational rapture avoids all of these difficulties.
 

Truth7t7

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More proof for the pre-trib rapture. I will share this with someone who is on the fence.
There is no proof of a pre-trib rapture, that isn't found in the holy bible
 

Major

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Are you referring to Matthew 27:51-53? If so then where are those individuals now?
Yes I am.

Matthew 27:51-53 ......
"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

You ask a good question. As far as I know there are two thoughts on what happened to those saints.

#1.
After God brought the people mentioned back to life, they could have gone back to their homes, where many acquaintances saw them. It's hard to imagine how utterly startling such an experience would be for their relatives and friends!

The Bible says nothing further about these people God resurrected at Christ's death, leaving us to conclude that they eventually died (again) and their families buried them (again). Along with all other saints who died, they await in their graves their resurrection to spirit life at the Rapture.

#2.
The Bible teaches us that God will change the righteous dead along with living Christians to immortal beings when Jesus Christ returns.
Just like Jesus.....they could have received a glorified body and did not remain on the earth very long since the New Testament does not refer to them again. This would have been the 2nd Phase of the 1st Resurrection.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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#1.
If God miraculously preserves the church through the tribulation, why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at Armageddon, then why would God not continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel in Ex. 8:22/9:4/26, 10:23 from the wrath He poured out on Pharaoh and Egypt. Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints who are already immune at the same time? Does that make any sense at all????
God does protect the believers on earth during the tribulation, all believers are (Sealed) Eph 1:13, 4:30, when saved, only those that (Have Not The Seal) will the plagues fall upon

Ephesians 1:13KJV

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The two witnesses of Rev 11 will be in control during the tribulation, bringing all plagues seen, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Just one example below, (Sealed Protected)

Rev 9:3-6KJV

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.