The law is not your problem.

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Jun 11, 2016
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#41
No, the law did not lead to a police state. Misinterpreting the purpose of the law led to a police state. and even a church can be a police church.

Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever

Are all men weak?
I would say so...therefore there is only one result, one group of men lording it over another.

Colossians 2

15
He disarmed[g] the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Do not let anyone disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, dwelling[h] on visions,[i] puffed up without cause by a human way of thinking,[j]19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows with a growth that is from God.
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe,[k] why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations,21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”? 22 All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings.23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-imposed piety, humility, and severe treatment of the body, but they are of no value in checking self-indulgence.
 
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Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
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#42

Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever

Are all men weak?
I would say so...therefore there is only one result, one group of men lording it over another.

Colossians 2

15
He disarmed[g] the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Do not let anyone disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, dwelling[h] on visions,[i] puffed up without cause by a human way of thinking,[j]19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows with a growth that is from God.
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe,[k] why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations,21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”? 22 All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings.23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-imposed piety, humility, and severe treatment of the body, but they are of no value in checking self-indulgence.
Well pointed, thanks.
 
Jun 11, 2016
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#43
So basically, everyone is roughly saying, none of us are going to heaven. I say this because following the law was impossible. And you say we naturally follow the law without following it intentionally, through faith. Though following the law was impossible. This is exactly why I used to feel like killing myself. Thinking I could never meet the requirements of old or new testament, and your implying you can't either? Even the apostles sinned but repented, so are they failures too. I think this is why people are angry, depressed and more because there are too many opinionative discrepancies. In my opinion, you repent of all sins known or unknown, from the heart, not wanting to do them. Knowing you will sin in the future, and need Christ to wash away and forgive those sins. Constantly trying to be better, but knowing we are weak and will stumble,fail, always. Until we are resurrected etc, clean and non-corruptable. Otherwise, every time we do a sin, we crumble thinking the time of not sinning was a failure because of the new sin. We are judged evil? Confused, so confused.

Jesus wants a personal relationship with us Dai. I have been a Christian 25 years and followed the spirit, as Paul commanded. I don't even know the 10 Commandments by rote.

There were 613 commandments in the Law, apparently Dai. Most of the Law is common sense. Some of it is simply now irrelevant.
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Ok, I'll pick 4 random commandments, 227, 41, 474 and 86

Not to commit incest with your sister (86), not to reap the entire field(41), to appoint judges and officers in every community of Israel (227), (lol - that was honestly random).

474 That one not of the seed of Aaron, shall not eat the flesh of the holy sacrifices (Ex. 29:33) (negative)
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#44
So basically, everyone is roughly saying, none of us are going to heaven. I say this because following the law was impossible. And you say we naturally follow the law without following it intentionally, through faith. Though following the law was impossible. This is exactly why I used to feel like killing myself. Thinking I could never meet the requirements of old or new testament, and your implying you can't either? Even the apostles sinned but repented, so are they failures too. I think this is why people are angry, depressed and more because there are too many opinionative discrepancies. In my opinion, you repent of all sins known or unknown, from the heart, not wanting to do them. Knowing you will sin in the future, and need Christ to wash away and forgive those sins. Constantly trying to be better, but knowing we are weak and will stumble,fail, always. Until we are resurrected etc, clean and non-corruptable. Otherwise, every time we do a sin, we crumble thinking the time of not sinning was a failure because of the new sin. We are judged evil? Confused, so confused.
Apparently you have missed the Cross. It's not about sin, it's about life. Life that Christ alone has. Do you have Christ??

1 John 5:12 - "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#45
I was in total agreement with your post up until this point...

I believe Jesus came to save us from the penalty of our sin.. that being the second death.. He came to save us from the curse which was attacked to the Law, namely the penalty we where under for breaking the Law..
I can only assume then you are still trapped in sin walking in the lusts of your flesh. There is no other option if you think that all Jesus did was take away the penalty. And being that our problem is sin I find a saviour who can not save from sin itself lacking. However Jesus can and does save us not just form the penalty but form sin itself. Ps the curse which is death was around before the law.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#46
I know many may think that I am trying to force law on them. The reality is that is not the case. I am trying to show you that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and raised to life is much more powerful than you think. It does not just cover our sin or take us form the penalty of sin. It takes sin out of our lives. It makes us holy and perfect in Christ.

Jesus is a complete saviour, He is able to do it.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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#47
I know many may think that I am trying to force law on them. The reality is that is not the case. I am trying to show you that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and raised to life is much more powerful than you think. It does not just cover our sin or take us form the penalty of sin. It takes sin out of our lives. It makes us holy and perfect in Christ.

Jesus is a complete saviour, He is able to do it.
yeah your life still has to show the fruit of that in your life right?
 

Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
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#48
Sorry all, tried do delete a post but the whole tread has gone of my points, ahhhhh.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#49
yeah your life still has to show the fruit of that in your life right?
If the fruit is not there then the reality of that salvation is not there. For example: If someone looks into a mirror and sees that they have dirt all over themselves. And so they go to a shower and wash and they come out saying this shower has the power to clean us. Yet that person still has dirt on them then the fruit shows the shower was insufficient. but if that person is indeed clean and the dirt removed then one can see that the shower has the ability to fix the dirt problem.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#50
It seems that many think Jesus came to do away with the law. I can see why at a glance this is assumed but let us examine the purpose of the law and in particular the 10 commandment law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith comes, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

First, we note the law was designed to lead us to Jesus that we could be justified by faith not works of the law but faith. Once this faith comes we no longer need the law to bring us to Christ because we are there.

So the first point is that the law was designed to bring us to Jesus to be saved by faith.

what function did the law play in order to do this?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law reveals sin, notice that this is its function to reveal or make sin known. Its purpose is to bring us to Christ for salvation buts its function is to make sin known.

Is the law itself sin, if not how does it reveal sin?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law, had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The law is not sin, but rather reveals or gives a knowledge of sin by showing what is good.

But we fall short of it and thus because we are breaking that law we know we are sinners.


So we know that the purpose of the law was to lead us to salvation in Christ, it does this by revealing that we are breaking the law and thus sinning. The law itself is good and holy and spiritual. The problem is we are not.

So then does this mean that sin only existed after the law was given?


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Notice death came by sin and death reigned form Adam to Moses. Thus sin was in the world before the law. as we have seen the law simply points it out so that we are without excuse:



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

In Galatians it says it this way:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

It was added because of transgression or in other words sin. So that all would be guilty and see their need of saving.

So we note that the law is good that it reveals sin and thus a need for a savior. We know sin was in the world before the law was added. All the law did was make us knowledgeable of that sin and thus under condemnation and in need of salvation in Christ.

This automatically tells us that Christ did not come to get rid of the law for it is good and spiritual. But rather he came to save from sin. The whole reason he gave the law was so we would see our sin and our need of saving.

Our problem is not the law, it has always been sin. The law had no power to free us form sin. Many tried to keep it by in their flesh but all failed as the law could not save but rather reveal our hopeless condition. Jesus gives us hope and faith. He offers what we could not do ourselves. He offers to free us from sin. that is why he came:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jesus makes us free form sin and thus the condemnation of the law. and thus the very law that condemned the hopeless sinner becomes a witness to those who are saved from sin by faith as it is written:



Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The righteousness of God that is not by works of the law is witnessed by the law and the prophets. That the law is written on the heart. That the sinner has been saved from sin.

Where once thou shalt not kill condemned the sinner, now it witnesses to the one saved that he does not kill and thus is the righteousness that comes by faith.

Jesus is able to save us by his promises. praise God.
Man could not fulfil the law because of the weakness of his flesh,If man could have fulfilled the law without CHRIST then there would not have been any reason for JESUS to come to earth,but JESUS did not have corrupt seed,but HE had the seed of the HOLY GHOST and was not weak because of the flesh.

GOD gave dominion of the earth to man and for the man to have dominion over the earth,a man would have to keep the law perfectly,so then JESUS came to earth the righteous way,fully GOD and fully MAN.

HE kept the law perfectly and proved it because death could not hold HIM and HE resurrected back to life.

The SPIRIT gives LIFE,not the flesh.

Now all power In heaven and earth belong to HIM and before HE left he gave Grace to all those that believe the WORD of GOD and they are now members of the body of CHRIST,we have access to this Grace through Faith.

The law Is not for those who have been born of the SPIRIT of GOD because they are GOD's workmanship created In CHRIST JESUS unto good works that were before ordained that we should walk In them,the law Is for the lawless.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#51
Man could not fulfil the law because of the weakness of his flesh,If man could have fulfilled the law without CHRIST then there would not have been any reason for JESUS to come to earth,but JESUS did not have corrupt seed,but HE had the seed of the HOLY GHOST and was not weak because of the flesh.

GOD gave dominion of the earth to man and for the man to have dominion over the earth,a man would have to keep the law perfectly,so then JESUS came to earth the righteous way,fully GOD and fully MAN.

HE kept the law perfectly and proved it because death could not hold HIM and HE resurrected back to life.

The SPIRIT gives LIFE,not the flesh.

Now all power In heaven and earth belong to HIM and before HE left he gave Grace to all those that believe the WORD of GOD and they are now members of the body of CHRIST,we have access to this Grace through Faith.

The law Is not for those who have been born of the SPIRIT of GOD because they are GOD's workmanship created In CHRIST JESUS unto good works that were before ordained that we should walk In them,the law Is for the lawless.
The Law was given for the unrighteous sinners in order to show them sin and their need of saving from sin. Thus the law on stone could not save but only condemn sinners of which all have sinned thus the whole word is guilty by the law.

However once someone is saved by Christ through Faith that same law that condemned sin now acts as a witness that one has been saved from sin. It witnesses that Gods promise in Christ is actually true. Here are the scriptures for what I have just said:

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Blessings
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#52
The Law is not my problem.

Amen.

I have come to Christ. My "problem" now is faith. And the law has nothing to do with faith.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#53
The Law is not my problem.

Amen.

I have come to Christ. My "problem" now is faith. And the law has nothing to do with faith.
For a second I liked that as I thought we agreed on something, and maybe we do and its just a wording thing. But the reason I took my like back is simple. You said:

"I have come to Christ. My "problem" now is faith".

But if you have come to Christ then you must already have faith. Faith is not a problem after you come to Christ. Like I said could be just the wording.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest:
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#54
For a second I liked that as I thought we agreed on something, and maybe we do and its just a wording thing. But the reason I took my like back is simple. You said:

"I have come to Christ. My "problem" now is faith".

But if you have come to Christ then you must already have faith. Faith is not a problem after you come to Christ. Like I said could be just the wording.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest:
That's why I put problem in quotes.

I don't really have a problem with faith. I would like more, of course. But I'm happy that I have what I have.


You know, let us labour lest we fall after that example of unbelief...
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#55
That's why I put problem in quotes.

I don't really have a problem with faith. I would like more, of course. But I'm happy that I have what I have.


You know, let us labour lest we fall after that example of unbelief...
It seams to me that the real issue that we are having is not if its faith or works. Because we both agree salvation is by faith. The real part that we seem to disagree on is what faith in God does. or rather what exactly God can do for us.

My point is simple, He takes sinners and transforms us into his image. And God does not sin, That is why Jesus kept the law perfectly, Not because he tried hard but because Jesus does not sin. I believe the Gospel does not simply forgive but also changes us so that we no longer sin. That takes faith as we can not do that ourselves.

Thus the person who is in faith will no longer break the law. Not because they are trying to keep it. But because Christ has destroyed sin the works of the Devil. In Christ we are victorious, This is the good news and He only is worthy of praise an Glory.

Thus the law that once condemned the helpless sinner, now acts as witness the the power of God to save from sin. The law breaker is changed into a law keeper. Another way of saying that is simple, Jesus saves people form sin. The law does not save and it does not change. It is just writing on stone, But if God changes us by faith so that we no longer sin but walk in the Spirit then we will be the working of God obey the law. they are one and the same.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#58
For a second I liked that as I thought we agreed on something, and maybe we do and its just a wording thing. But the reason I took my like back is simple. You said:

"I have come to Christ. My "problem" now is faith".

But if you have come to Christ then you must already have faith. Faith is not a problem after you come to Christ. Like I said could be just the wording.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest:
Positional sanctification Is a done deal,but progressive sanctification,as you have received CHRIST,so walk ye In HIM.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#59
Maybe some of my testimony will help.

I like anyone who studies the bible came to a place where I saw I was a sinner. I knew this before the bible but the law opened it up for me so that I saw I was worse than I thought before the bible.

I began trying to better myself and keep the law. But no matter how hard I tried I could not maintain it or reach its standard. I physically kept the 7th day Sabbath but in my heart I was still Gods enemy though I did not want to be. I was able to look good in front of church members as that is easy to do and they can not see the heart and evil inside. I cleaned the outside of the cup but my insides were filthy.

I got discouraged and wanted to give up, But instead I began to fashion the Gospel into my condition. This was easy because many Christians today do this without realising it and I did not realise it at the time. I decided that because I could not keep the law that I was never going to and that this is Why Jesus died. I convinced myself that I would always sin and break the law and that salvation consisted mostly in the covering my sin in the blood of Jesus. This allowed me to still sin and still be saved at the same time.

Don't misunderstand me here. I still did not want to sin and still did my best not to. (that is works even though I did not see it.) In fact its just as works based as when I tried to keep it perfectly, the only difference is I lowered the bar.

For a time I had great peace compared to how I was before. But I still knew deep down that I was manipulating scripture to fit my sin into a salvation model that allowed me to sin simply because I was a weak human and God would understand.

I thought at that time that Sin was just something I would always struggle with. Thus I twisted Romans 7 into a version of how it is to be a Christian. Later I learned the truth that Romans 7 was not Gods plan for His people.

It was then that I found the Faith of Abraham, this is not so long back to be honest. But what God showed me is Abraham did not promise God anything. In fact the few times Abraham tried to do things his way they failed. But when he simply trusted God there was success. Then I noticed that Abraham was righteous by faith not works. So that God could say honestly of Abraham that he actually kept Gods law and statutes and judgements and obeyed Gods voice.

Abraham who did not have the law on stone ended up obeying it perfectly, Yet the only thing we have of Him is that he believed God. This started me on a Journey as I read Paul I saw that Paul believed in keeping the law but it had nothing to do with us trying but rather to do with us believing God just like Abraham. I began to read Gods promises to give us new hearts and to make us holy in a new light.

I also realised that Because I was still breaking that law I was still a slave to sin and the law condemned me afresh. So

now I know that the law must be kept, I also know I can't keep it. So then I looked to faith as Abraham kept it by faith even though God did not give the law on stone to Him. So I prayed to God and confessed that I am a sinner still enslaved to sin and the Devil. I read to God his promises to change us and free us form sin. Then I said as you have said it so it is and began to praise him for the victory Christ offers me by his death and resurrection and intercession in Heaven.

Something amazing began to happen, by simply claiming the promises and accepting them as reality because I believed God is true and can not fail. My life changed dramatically. In the two conditions I mentioned first I was constantly breaking the law in some way and would every night confess my shortcomings. But after I began claiming Gods promises and believing them to be so I got to prayer that night and could find no where in my heart where I knowingly transgressed Gods law. At first I was afraid thinking that this was self righteous thinking and I tried to find something where I had sinned against God. But I could find nothing. Then I prayed and said God show me my sins and then it dawned on me:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham was righteous by faith. It was God who had done this, I began to praise God for the victory over sin that He had given by keeping his promises. Since that day He has taught me more and more of His grace. But now when I look at his law I do not see condemnation as I did when I was in sin without Christ. Rather the law bares witness that Christ has indeed kept his promise to me. I do not say look how good I am for keeping the law. No God forbid. I could not do it before and I can not now. So there is only one explanation God kept His word to me and has given me a new heart and His holy spirit.

The Gospel is more powerful to me now and more glorious to me now than ever before. The scriptures have come alive and with each day it gets better and better.

thus like Paul said, by faith we establish the law. The law itself does not save, Christ saves. blessings.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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#60
that why your still a slave to sin. and this was paul telling the jewish converts.

Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3:


Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith

trying to regain favor from god by following law.

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant



13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.Hebrews 8: Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant