The Law of Sin and Death vs. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus

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Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#61
Nov 22, 2015
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#61
There are many good profitable things we can learn from the Lord's prayer when He taught the disciples in the time period they were in but to repeat it like it is written is actually doing the complete opposite of what Jesus said NOT to do in Matt 6:7.

The fact remains IMO that even though there are great things to learn from this prayer - it was for the time period between Christ living and Christ dying and rising from the dead.

If you notice - Jesus did not say to pray in His name in Matt. 6. When He was about to die - He changed the way the disciples prayed by saying. John 16

John 16:22-26 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.


[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

I realize that this truth may be against our church upbringing and what we have been taught but the understanding of these truths will allow us to grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and to walk fully in the reality of the New Covenant.
 
dave_in_KWC

dave_in_KWC

Senior Member
#62
May 21, 2014
287
89
28
KWC, Ontario
#62
(The earlier comments in posts 3-7 about perfection in one's spirit): I think it is also seen as "dualism", if I'm recalling correctly...
 
dave_in_KWC

dave_in_KWC

Senior Member
#63
May 21, 2014
287
89
28
KWC, Ontario
#63
Grace777x70 said:
There are many good profitable things we can learn from the Lord's prayer when He taught the disciples in the time period they were in but to repeat it like it is written is actually doing the complete opposite of what Jesus said NOT to do in Matt 6:7.

The fact remains IMO that even though there are great things to learn from this prayer - it was for the time period between Christ living and Christ dying and rising from the dead.

If you notice - Jesus did not say to pray in His name in Matt. 6. When He was about to die - He changed the way the disciples prayed by saying. John 16

John 16:22-26 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.


[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

I realize that this truth may be against our church upbringing and what we have been taught but the understanding of these truths will allow us to grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and to walk fully in the reality of the New Covenant.
Click to expand...
Post 60 & 61 are comments you don't hear very often and I think I get the "mindset" that these comments are coming from... I will take those comments and pray/study for a while on this "idea" and see what "I hear"...

Thanks for the thoughts, Grace & hb
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#64
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#64
Grace777x70 said:

Maybe this video will help you to see what is really being said concerning the Lord's prayer. Context is king! ( maybe this can help others too if they see what is really being said )


[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]
Click to expand...
I fail to see how the context changes things. The sermon on the mount is equally valid today. As with the Law it expounds what is required if a man would be righteous before God, but at a much higher level. It is not, and never was, a way in which to be saved. Men have been saved by grace alone for the beginning of time (Rom 4-5).

To suggest that Jesus teaching was for three years only is to mock His teaching. He was PREPARING His disciples for the future. What He taught is equally valid today.

The Lord's example of what to pray for is as valid now as it ever was, He did not expect us to use it as a stereotyped prayer.

It was divided into two parts.

First was need to pray for the preaching of the Kingly Rule of God and the attitude it was to produce.

Second was the personal state of His followers.

It was a prayer for those who had already been saved to pray.

All through the Bible there are at least two aspects of forgiveness. The Day of atonement and the daily sacrifices etc were to keep the nation atoned before God, the personal sacrifices for individual sins were for personal forgiveness.

Christians today have permanent once for all forgiveness before the Judge for their 'sinfulness' (Acts 26.18). They do however need, as Jesus was reminding them, individual forgiveness by a Father for their daily failures (1 John 1.7-10)

God does not withhold total forgiveness until we have forgiven others their sins against us, but He DOES withhold the forgiveness of a father to his sons. If I pray for daily forgiveness with an unforgiving heart, I must not expect God to forgive me, for He EXPECTS me to be forgiving. That has nothing to do with salvation, it is a matter of relationship. I cannot love God Who I have not seen, unless I love my brother whom I have seen.
 
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H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#65
#65
disciplemike said:
So you are really saying that Christ taught the "anti-Christ" prayer?
Click to expand...
what Christ taught His desciples was an old method of praying. The term the lord's prayer' is no found in the bible!! we are the one who have termed it that way. what i am saying is that anything that anyone tries to practice, even in his prayer life that go against the person and work of Christ is anti Christ. by the way anti Christ simply means, any idea/teaching that is not Christ centered
 
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disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#67
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
22
0
#67
heavenly_bound said:
what Christ taught was an old method of praying His disciples. The term the lord's prayer' is no found in the bible!! we are the one who have termed it that way. what i am saying is that anything that anyone tries to practice, even in his prayer life that go against the person and work of Christ is anti Christ. by the way anti Christ simply means, any idea/teaching that is not Christ centered
Click to expand...
my sister,
first off, I didn't call it the "lord's prayer". I really don't care what you call it. The Messiah taught it to His disciples, of whom I am one.
secondly, if you study the Bible in context, you will find that God's people were more than once cast out (into bondage) because they would not do His will. (His commandments).
thirdly, if you think God's Kingdom if fully come to this earth already, you are wrong.
Allow me to assure you, when His Kingdom is fully come, it won't look like this.

Finally, again, it would be rather silly to keep saying that Christ taught the disciples an antichrist prayer.
I hope you have a good Sun-day.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#69
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#69
heavenly_bound said:
what Christ taughtHis desciples was an old method of praying His disciples. The term the lord's prayer' is no found in the bible!! we are the one who have termed it that way. what i am saying is that anything that anyone tries to practice, even in his prayer life that go against the person and work of Christ is anti Christ. by the way anti Christ simply means, any idea/teaching that is not Christ centered
Click to expand...

I too believe that the "disciples prayer" ( which would be a better term for this prayer ) was really a transitional prayer to be prayed until the bringing the kingdom of God "in" us which is after Christ arose from the dead and His ascension. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "Near or at hand" at the start of His ministry because He Himself was there with them.

Then He says later that the kingdom of God shall be "in" you. This prayer would be used to bring this about on the earth and Christ did do this very thing for us in solidifying the New Covenant.

This has been shown in post #60 and #61.

As, I said - there will be a lot of emotional responses to this teaching as it goes against what we have been taught in our religious upbringing. Let every person be persuaded in their heart on this matter.

Personally knowing the truths about this prayer has helped me immensely in my walk with the Lord and as I say - there are many principles to learn from this prayer that are still applicable to us now in 2016.
 
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F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#70
#70
Redemption and forgiveness are inextricably tied to one another;

"In Him we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph 1:7)

"In whom we HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:14)

You can't have redemption apart from the forgiveness of sins. This IS the Good News of the Gospel. That we Christians are redeemed people, and that we are redeemed people because we are forgiven people.
 
H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#71
#71
disciplemike said:
my sister,
first off, I didn't call it the "lord's prayer". I really don't care what you call it. The Messiah taught it to His disciples, of whom I am one.
secondly, if you study the Bible in context, you will find that God's people were more than once cast out (into bondage) because they would not do His will. (His commandments).
thirdly, if you think God's Kingdom if fully come to this earth already, you are wrong.
Allow me to assure you, when His Kingdom is fully come, it won't look like this.

Finally, again, it would be rather silly to keep saying that Christ taught the disciples an antichrist prayer
I hope you have a good Sun-day.
Click to expand...
A disciple is one who follows and the last time i checked bro, you were not present when Christ was on earth to be His disciple. pls have you ever asked yourself why the disciples were now called the apostles immediately after the resurrection? i can bet you, you will not find the word disciple after Christ's ascension!! There is a reason for that.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#72
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#72
FreeNChrist said:
Redemption and forgiveness are inextricably tied to one another;

"In Him we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph 1:7)

"In whom we HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:14)

You can't have redemption apart from the forgiveness of sins. This IS the Good News of the Gospel. That we Christians are redeemed people, and that we are redeemed people because we are forgiven people.
Click to expand...
That is talking about overall forgiveness. But there is also personal forgiveness, as mentioned in 1 John 1.7-2.2. The first brings salvation. The second brings a restored relationship. The two must never be mixed up.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#73
#73
valiant said:
That is talking about overall forgiveness. But there is also personal forgiveness, as mentioned in 1 John 1.7-2.2. The first brings salvation. The second brings a restored relationship. The two must never be mixed up.
Click to expand...
I understand the concept. It is a construct to get around 1 John 1:9. Which when properly understood, needs no work-around.
 
H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#74
#74
disciplemike said:
my sister,
first off, I didn't call it the "lord's prayer". I really don't care what you call it. The Messiah taught it to His disciples, of whom I am one.
secondly, if you study the Bible in context, you will find that God's people were more than once cast out (into bondage) because they would not do His will. (His commandments).
thirdly, if you think God's Kingdom if fully come to this earth already, you are wrong.
Allow me to assure you, when His Kingdom is fully come, it won't look like this.

Finally, again, it would be rather silly to keep saying that Christ taught the disciples an antichrist prayer.
I hope you have a good Sun-day.
Click to expand...
and also "fully come" doesn't imply that part of the kingdom has come and another is to come latter. its crazy to think so. Because the kingdom of God is God Himself(the trinity) The kingdom has come and it will be fully manifested; apparent, come forth to the lamp light for everyone to see. That is the meaning of "fully come". And by the way, the kingdom of God is not a geographical location. for if it were a location thenn it would not be eternal. you think its a geographical location; that why you can say that part of it has come and the other is yet to come.
 
H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#75
#75
Grace777x70 said:

I too believe that the "disciples prayer" ( which would be a better term for this prayer ) was really a transitional prayer to be prayed until the bringing the kingdom of God "in" us which is after Christ arose from the dead and His ascension. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "Near or at hand" at the start of His ministry because He Himself was there with them.

Then He says later that the kingdom of God shall be "in" you. This prayer would be used to bring this about on the earth and Christ did do this very thing for us in solidifying the New Covenant.

This has been shown in post #60 and #61.

As, I said - there will be a lot of emotional responses to this teaching as it goes against what we have been taught in our religious upbringing. Let every person be persuaded in their heart on this matter.

Personally knowing the truths about this prayer has helped me immensely in my walk with the Lord and as I say - there are many principles to learn from this prayer that are still applicable to us now in 2016.
Click to expand...
Amen bro!!! Thanks for helping me out lol
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#76
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
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#76
heavenly_bound said:
and also "fully come" doesn't imply that part of the kingdom has come and another is to come latter. its crazy to think so. Because the kingdom of God is God Himself(the trinity) The kingdom has come and it will be fully manifested; apparent, come forth to the lamp light for everyone to see. That is the meaning of "fully come". And by the way, the kingdom of God is not a geographical location. for if it were a location thenn it would not be eternal. you think its a geographical location; that why you can say that part of it has come and the other is yet to come.
Click to expand...
perhaps Jer31?
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#77
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
22
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#77
heavenly_bound said:
A disciple is one who follows and the last time i checked bro, you were not present when Christ was on earth to be His disciple. pls have you ever asked yourself why the disciples were now called the apostles immediately after the resurrection? i can bet you, you will not find the word disciple after Christ's ascension!! There is a reason for that.
Click to expand...
what does the word "disciple" mean?
 
K

know1

Senior Member
#78
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
167
63
#78
heavenly_bound said:
A disciple is one who follows and the last time i checked bro, you were not present when Christ was on earth to be His disciple. pls have you ever asked yourself why the disciples were now called the apostles immediately after the resurrection? i can bet you, you will not find the word disciple after Christ's ascension!! There is a reason for that.
Click to expand...
Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,




Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


One follows Jesus from the heart, not physically.
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#79
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
22
0
#79
heavenly_bound said:
A disciple is one who follows and the last time i checked bro, you were not present when Christ was on earth to be His disciple. pls have you ever asked yourself why the disciples were now called the apostles immediately after the resurrection? i can bet you, you will not find the word disciple after Christ's ascension!! There is a reason for that.
Click to expand...

And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Acts 9:26 (KJV, MBM)

and several other places in the Book of Acts, we find "disciples".

 
H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#80
#80
Grace777x70 said:

Maybe this video will help you to see what is really being said concerning the Lord's prayer. Context is king! ( maybe this can help others too if they see what is really being said )


[video=youtube;Ujyb683RNtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujyb683RNtM[/video]
Click to expand...
wow; this video is great. thanks for sharing it grace 777
 
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